Sonore opticalRendu

[Superdad]

4 hours ago, barrows said:

@Superdad, Alex, are you comfortable with the LPS 1 and LPS 1.2 running at just under 1A continuous at 7 VDC output?  For use with DACs which do not draw any current from the USB bus it is very likely that the LPS supplies from UpTone are entirely adequate.  This week I will be measuring the precise current consumption of the opticalRendu under a few different conditions.  I am expecting it to be about 600-700 mA on its own (estimates based on pre regulator power supply ripple), considering I would want to recommend about 25% current headroom for the power supply, then any supply which is happy delivering 1A should be OK, as long as the DAC is not adding (much) to the current draw.

I will measure both with a DAC which draws no current, and with interfaces like the Amanero running on USB power.

 

Every UpTone Audio UltraCap unit (both original LPS-1 and current generation LPS-1.2) is certified on my bench to be capable of producing a continuous 1.1A (same rating for all its output voltage settings). Most units make it to 1.15A, and some even to 1.2A.  These are hard limits--controlled by firmware--and the UltraCap will trip into over-current protection mode with any load beyond their set point.  Instantaneous load current peaks above those trip points are possible.

 

There is no problem running an UltraCap unit continuously under a constant load at 1A or 1.1A.  The case will become hot, but at no point will the parts inside be at more than half their rated thermal limits.

 

John Swenson has measured the current draw of the opticalRendu.  During boot up it draws 600mA (0.6A), and during normal operation it draws about 400mA (0.4A).  This is without any USB 5VBUS load on its output.  

 

I hope the above information is helpful.

--Alex C.

[barrows]

13 minutes ago, Superdad said:

John Swenson has measured the current draw of the opticalRendu.  During boot up it draws 600mA (0.6A), and during normal operation it draws about 400mA (0.4A).  This is without any USB 5VBUS load on its output.  

Hmm, what JS consider "normal operation"?  The microRendu with v 1.4 board runs at 400 mA when processing PCM 705.6 and with no load from the connected DAC, and it draws 300 mA when idle.  (Just re-measured to confirm previous measurements).  

I am pretty sure that the opticalRendu would run at least 200 mA more current under the same conditions (estimated from ripple difference on cap bank for the two loads).  If JS was measuring using a DAC which draws no USB current and at a low sample rate perhaps the 400 mA is possible but seems low; even much higher heat output from the opticalRendu indicates considerably higher power consumption than the microRendu.

As I suspected the LPS power supplies should have no problem with this.  As Alex has noted, he is very confident the LPS power supplies will perform well at 1A output, so even with a DAC load of another 200 mA, the LPS supplies should be fine (~800 mA) total estimated.  Luckily, it seems that most DACs are not using the XMOS XU216 (at least not via USB bus power) as that thing is a real power hog.

 

I will confirm with few measurements of the opticalRendu with various loads from the DAC, both XMOS and Amanero will be tested at DSD 256, just have to get the optical feed for the workshop here to finish the measurements.  Stay tuned...

 

At the moment my recommendation for a supply which is happy at 1A output stands, I will modify this if the more precise measurements shows anything different than the estimates.

 

Additionally, I think the LPS supplies will be fine with the possible exception of use with DACs which draw a lot of current from the USB bus.  i would like to see the USB current <300 mA for sure with the LPS power supplies, thankfully for LPS fans, this is going to be OK with most (nearly all) DACs.

[barrows]

OK, the extra FMC came in today and I made the following current draw measurements:

 

Playback software: ROON

DAC: MOJO (this DAC uses no USB current)

 

sample rate PCM 705.6...................................1A

sample rate PCM 44.1.....................................890 mA

sample rate DSD 128 (DoP)............................935 mA

 

Playback software: ROON

DAC: Buffalo, tasing Amanero USB interface (uses USB power)

 

sample rate DSD 256 (native).........................1.125A

sample rate PCM 44.1.....................................1.025A

 

All currents measured via voltage drop across a 1%, 1 ohm resistor via a Fluke true RMS DMM.

 

@Dutch,

In light of these measurements I am raising the recommended power supply current for the opticalRendu.  Allowing for 20% current headroom, and considering the maximum measured draw of !.125A, I recommend a supply capable of 1.35 A continuous output (or more).  Also note that some DACs may draw more current from the USB bus, in that case a more powerful supply might be advised.

I knew from my experience that the opticalRendu was drawing significantly more current than previous models, but I was still surprised at the measured results.  Even with a DAC which uses no USB power one is running right at the limit on an LPS power supply.

I suggest users be careful when selecting power supplies for the opticalRendu, use these actual, precise measurements as your guide.

[André Gosselin]

6 minutes ago, barrows said:

OK, the extra FMC came in today and I made the following current draw measurements:

 

Playback software: ROON

DAC: MOJO (this DAC uses no USB current)

 

sample rate PCM 705.6...................................1A

sample rate PCM 44.1.....................................890 mA

sample rate DSD 128 (DoP)............................935 mA

 

Playback software: ROON

DAC: Buffalo, tasing Amanero USB interface (uses USB power)

 

sample rate DSD 256 (native).........................1.125A

sample rate PCM 44.1.....................................1.025A

 

All currents measured via voltage drop across a 1%, 1 ohm resistor via a Fluke true RMS DMM.

 

@Dutch,

In light of these measurements I am raising the recommended power supply current for the opticalRendu.  Allowing for 20% current headroom, and considering the maximum measured draw of !.125A, I recommend a supply capable of 1.35 A continuous output (or more).  Also note that some DACs may draw more current from the USB bus, in that case a more powerful supply might be advised.

I knew from my experience that the opticalRendu was drawing significantly more current than previous models, but I was still surprised at the measured results.  Even with a DAC which uses no USB power one is running right at the limit on an LPS power supply.

I suggest users be careful when selecting power supplies for the opticalRendu, use these actual, precise measurements as your guide. 

 Does that imply the LPS will be dropped from the list of recommended power supplies on the Sonore.us optical web page ?

[barrows]

7 minutes ago, André Gosselin said:

 Does that imply the LPS will be dropped from the list of recommended power supplies on the Sonore.us optical web page ?

I just took these measurements just now.  I will be sharing them with the team, and any changes will be up to them.

Quick photo of the test set up:

 

[Dutch]

@barrows, assuming these results are accurate and repeatable (I suspect many may wonder why John Swenson got different, not even close, results) this is helpful for your (potential) customers. It’ll probably help Sonore Support as well in their troubleshooting process when customers who are using low power output PSU’s report issues.

 

Again I’m not a current customer anymore, though my ‘loyalties’ are with the solution that offers me the best SQ. Within my budget constraints of course. So who knows I might be one again in the future. 

[barrows]

@Dutch, thanks for helping motivate me to make the measurements.  I have no idea how John came up with the results Alex posted above, but my measurements are accurate: resistors and DMMs tell only the truth.

[vortecjr]

His devices may just draw different amounts of current. This is reason we send samples to different people. Enough people have these power supplies that we can wait for feedback before deciding to include or exclude the LPS-1 from the recommended list. 

[vortecjr]

10 hours ago, cat6man said:

 

with multiple Rendu units, including ultraRendu with lps-1.2.

the usb output direct to dac was compared to usb output feeding various adapters that converted to aes/ebu.

in every case, aes/ebu sounded better with my DAC.

this was true with my DAC using moderately priced D->D converters (e.g. sotm dx-usbHD and Matrix) and high end (TotalDAC reclocker--the best by far).

 

i'm looking forward to feeding my TotalDAC reclocker with the opticalRendu as further reducing upstream noise is clearly important.

just changing the ultraRendu power supply from lps-1 to lps-1.2 was immediately audible, even with a reclocker after the ultraRendu!

 

i have not tried the signature unit though, so i can't comment on that specifically.

 

update:  this does raise the issue of whether or not a super power supply would further elevate the opticalRendu in my configuration.........guess i'll have to wait until April to start investigating that question.   i'll start with the lps-1.2 but i'll be very interested in the feedback of others who may try other power supply units.

 

I have another customer that really likes his TotalDAC reclocker when feed by a microRendu.

[rickca]

3 hours ago, barrows said:

Quick photo of the test set up

Well, there you go!  That sponge is soaking up all the current!  Are you hiding something under that red thing?

[barrows]

15 minutes ago, rickca said:

Well, there you go!  That sponge is soaking up all the current!  Are you hiding something under that red thing?

Haha, yes.  The red anti static foam is a "modesty" cover, shielding the opticalRendu main board from prying eyes.  BTW, the foam was not in place during actual testing.

[cat6man]

3 hours ago, vortecjr said:

I have another customer that really likes his TotalDAC reclocker when feed by a microRendu.

 

looking forward here to having TotalDAC reclocker fed by opticalRendu

 

sold my ultraRendu and currently using a cubox/sonicorbiter which is no match for any Rendu!

[McNulty]

I agree with @André Gosselin that Sonore should consider to change the text regarding recommended power supplies on the OpticalRendu webpage until compatibility has been confirmed. It kind of surprises me these recommendations have been published by Sonore at a stage where apparently no testing with measurements had been done yet.

[vortecjr]

4 hours ago, McNulty said:

I agree with @André Gosselin that Sonore should consider to change the text regarding recommended power supplies on the OpticalRendu webpage until compatibility has been confirmed. It kind of surprises me these recommendations have been published by Sonore at a stage where apparently no testing with measurements had been done yet.

Please don’t make an argument based on speculation. We have done testing as stated above just not with every DAC on market. 

[McNulty]

@vortecjr: maybe I've misunderstood the previous postings.

My understanding based on the above is that a PSU with 1.35A is recommended by Sonore and Uptone states that an LPS 1.2 produces 1.1A. If I combine these statements, it is unclear to me why the LPS 1.2 is on the list of recommended PSUs. Would be great if you could clarify this, I'm sure lots of potential customers (including me) are considering the LPS 1.2 for use with the OpticalRendu. 
 

[matthias]

7 hours ago, vortecjr said:

Please don’t make an argument based on speculation. We have done testing as stated above just not with every DAC on market. 

 

Why testing every DAC on the market?

AFAIK, the USB 5V bus specs are 500mA. So you have just to add 500mA on top of your measurements without the 5V bus delivery.

 

Matt

[Dutch]

19 hours ago, vortecjr said:

His devices may just draw different amounts of current. This is reason we send samples to different people. Enough people have these power supplies that we can wait for feedback before deciding to include or exclude the LPS-1 from the recommended list. 

 

Barrows measurements are made with and without DACs that use power.

 

For John Swenson’s measurements this is what happened:

On 2/27/2019 at 7:58 PM, Superdad said:

John Swenson has measured the current draw of the opticalRendu.  During boot up it draws 600mA (0.6A), and during normal operation it draws about 400mA (0.4A).  This is without any USB 5VBUS load on its output.  

 

So what you state is not relevant.

[Superdad]

I have asked John to remeasure and to clarify.  Perhaps the Chord MOJO Barrows used does draw 5VBUS current after all.  Otherwise very hard to account for a 400mA discrepancy.  

Just chill and let's see what the actual designer of the product has to say.  

[barrows]

1 minute ago, Superdad said:

I have asked John to remeasure and to clarify.  Perhaps the Chord MOJO Barrows used does draw 5VBUS current after all.  Otherwise very hard to account for a 400mA discrepancy.  

Just chill and let's see what the actual designer of the product has to say.  

The Mojo does not use USB current:

 

 

[Superdad]

22 minutes ago, barrows said:

The Mojo does not use USB current:

 

That's just what it reports.  Not to be believed.  Try disconnecting 5VBUS to confirm.

The iFi micro iDSD DAC/HA reports requiring just 80mA--all while it is actually drawing 450mA! 

[barrows]

20 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

That's just what it reports.  Not to be believed.  Try disconnecting 5VBUS to confirm.

The iFi micro iDSD DAC/HA reports requiring just 80mA--all while it is actually drawing 450mA! 

OMG!

The results are consistent with an interface which no current from USB, especially in comparison with how much more current is drawn via Amanero.  Chord designed the Mojo as a portable device which specifically does not draw power for the USB bus so as to not compromise run time of the paired phone.

[vortecjr]

Can you guys take this off line. 

[Adyc]

I think there is an optical version of Signature Rendu SE in the pipeline which will accept optical network input. I really like to have one box solution. Is it possible to have Signature Rendu SE version that will accept Ethernet input but with Ethernet to optical built inside the same case?

[vortecjr]

There are no plans t0 make that. We have another idea, but it hasn’t been discussed yet. 

[asdf1000]

6 hours ago, vortecjr said:

Can you guys take this off line. 

 

This is rather important though... Rendu's + Uptone LPS-1.2 is a rather popular combo, so we do need to know, for the  upcoming opticalRendu...