Sonore opticalRendu

[barrows]

1 hour ago, McNulty said:

@vortecjr and @barrows would you say the Sonore Signature Power Supply that Chris used in his video currently is the best power supply to use with the OpticalRendu? Am I correct that this model is no longer available from Sonore and can only be bought second hand?

I would say that Signature Power Supply is certainly one of the best options for the opticalRendu as it was designed specifically for the requirements of the Rendu series of products and is a very high performance supply.

 

Even better in terms of performance is the power supply built in to the Sonore Signature Rendu SE.  Sonore will almost certainly have a Signature Rendu optical version available at some point in the future, which will offer the absolute best performance possible with a built in ultra low noise ultra low impedance linear power supply.  For owners of the Signature Rendu SE there is an upgrade program in place right now to convert it to optical input which includes a completely new main board, and some additional options as well-any owners of the Signature Rendu SE who are interested should contact: [email protected]

 

There are a number of third party power supplies which are likely well suited to the opticalRendu, keep in mind that the opticalRendu does use significantly more power than the ultraRendu.  I would like to see a power supply for the opticalRendu which is capable of 7-8 VDC output and is happy delivering 1A continuous current and 2A peak current at a minimum.  As we cannot test every power supply available I cannot get much more specific than that.

 

[rickca]

4 minutes ago, barrows said:

I would like to see a power supply for the opticalRendu which is capable of 7-8 VDC output and is happy delivering 1A continuous current and 2A peak current at a minimum.  As we cannot test every power supply available I cannot get much more specific than that.

Are you saying the LPS-1.2 is not suitable?  It's listed as a recommended power supply on the Sonore website. @Superdad can LPS-1.2 deliver 2A peaks?

[Superdad]

12 minutes ago, rickca said:

Are you saying the LPS-1.2 is not suitable?  It's listed as a recommended power supply on the Sonore website. @Superdad can LPS-1.2 deliver 2A peaks?

 

John Swenson is powering his opticalRendu with an UpTone UltraCap supply just fine.  

[barrows]

22 minutes ago, rickca said:

Are you saying the LPS-1.2 is not suitable?  It's listed as a recommended power supply on the Sonore website. @Superdad can LPS-1.2 deliver 2A peaks?

I have no experience with that supply, and so cannot comment on it.

One thing to consider is that how much power  is needed by the opticalRendu varies depending on how much current the attached DAC may (or not) draw from the USB 5 VDC supply, and somewhat by what mode it is running in, as well as what sample rate it is running at.  

I would also comment that for best performance I prefer a power supply which has some current headroom to spare, that is the reason for the 2A peak current recommendation.

[asdf1000]

45 minutes ago, barrows said:

that is the reason for the 2A peak current recommendation.

That is your recommendation only?

 

Or also @JohnSwenson's?

[barrows]

29 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

That is your recommendation only?

 

Or also @JohnSwenson's?

I have no idea what JS might recommend.  I design the power supply for the Signature Rendu SE, and the optical upgrade to the Signature Rendu SE and that is my recommendation.  As mentioned above, one has to take into consideration there is considerable variability in the current needs of the opticalRendu, depending on how much current the attached DAC may draw, what mode the opticalRendu is running in, and what sample rate the opticalRendu is processing.  Any recommendation from Sonore has to take into account the largest current use possible.  If one uses a DAC which draws no current from the USB power supply, and only processes 16 bit/44.1 files the current demand will be lower.  In any case, allowing for some current headroom is always a good idea, no power supply performs at its best when redlining.

[asdf1000]

35 minutes ago, barrows said:

I have no idea what JS might recommend.

 

No problem, but since he designed it for Sonore, I assumed someone from Sonore would have asked what he recommends.

 

An unreasonable assumption on my part.

 

 

[Dutch]

@barrows you’re creating FUD! Sorry to be blunt. I’m sure you know the LPS-1.2 is one of the more/most popular low power output PSU’s used here on this forum. Why don’t you make sure you (=Sonore, and if you can’t speak for Sonore you should not speak at all IMO) know (have measured) the range of power required by the OpticalRendu in any practical conceivable scenario before slinging this onto this forum?

 

The fact that you have a vested interest as the designer of the Sig Rendu PSU’s doesn’t work in your advantage when considering the above.

 

 

[barrows]

37 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

No problem, but since he designed it for Sonore, I assumed someone from Sonore would have asked what he recommends.

I have a very good idea of what current is needed by the circuit as I can just measure it directly, asking JS would not make any difference as the circuit draws the current it draws, John is a busy guy and bothering him with trivial questions like this is counterproductive.  When making a recommendation to customers for power supply requirements, Sonore must take into account the largest current draw possible scenario, with a DAC which might require 300-500 mA from the USB supply, plus what the opticalRendu itself draws when running at high sample rates.

 

I suppose that some here may not understand what current really is and in what ways it matters: for example, a load (the opticalRendu in this case) draws current as it needs it (a regulated supply holds the voltage steady, while the current draw varies as per the load).  There is never a problem created by a power supply having too much current available, as the load only draws the current it needs.  Where there can be a problem is if the current available from the power supply is insufficient for the maximum load.  When there is is insufficient current available a few different things can happen: if the power supply has no current limiting, it may emit the magic smoke and fail, if it has current limiting, the power supply may shut down, and/or it may stop regulating the output voltage.  So, making sure that the supply always (in the case of the largest possible load) has enough current is important, and a manufacturer like Sonore is going to recommend a power supply rated such that there is no chance of a current overload.

Additionally, power supplies typically perform better (with lower noise and lower output impedance) when they are running with some headroom, not when they are producing their maximum rated output.  This is the same as a power amplifier, and should be considered in a similar sense.  As the opticalRendu is a high performance device, it would be a disservice to customers to recommend anything but a power supply which will never be maxed out when powering it; hence, I make a conservative recommendation.

[barrows]

14 minutes ago, Dutch said:

@barrows you’re creating FUD! Sorry to be blunt. I’m sure you know the LPS-1.2 is one of the more/most popular low power output PSU’s used here on this forum. Why don’t you make sure you (=Sonore, and if you can’t speak for Sonore you should not speak at all IMO) know (have measured) the range of power required by the OpticalRendu in any practical conceivable scenario before slinging this onto this forum?

 

The fact that you have a vested interest as the designer of the Sig Rendu PSU’s doesn’t work in your advantage when considering the above.

 

 

I made no mention of the LPS 1 or LPS 1.2, excepting to say that I have no experience with them.  I do not know what their capabilities are, and I insinuated nothing about their application as to powering the opticalRendu.  If one has questions specifically about the capabilities of the LPS-1 and LPS 1.2 please direct those to @Superdad, he is welcome to publish the specs of his products here for those who are interested, and I am sure he will be happy to answer any of those questions.

My responsibility is to give a recommendation for voltage and current for powering the opticalRendu, and that is what I have done.  I can only give a recommendation based on what the requirements of the opticalRendu are, not on the capabilities of power supplies which I have no experience with.

 

Additionally, without measuring every DAC available for how much current they draw (if at all) from the USB power supply it is impossible to accurately measure the exact power draw in every possible scenario, hence I make a conservative recommendation which I know will be safe for every possible customer.

[Dutch]

I’m not wasting more time and energy as I’m not even a customer anymore. I do think you’re hurting Sonore, again.(do you think people would rather change their PSU’s when there’s effectively little choice beyond an LPS-1/1.2 AND buy the OpticalRendu or do neither or buy someting else like an etherregen?)

 

I’m sure you know what I meant. You (Sonore) could measure the max. power requirements of the OpticalRendu, worst case, excluding the DAC requirements. It’s you who mentioned the ‘considerable variability’ in current requirements besides those of the DAC for example the sample rate it’s running at.

[barrows]

@Dutch, I am really unsure as to what you are objecting to here?  One cannot disregard the amount of current drawn by the DAC.

I did not suggest anyone change power supplies, I just gave recommendations for voltage and current based on the requirements of the opticalRendu for optimum performance.  I have also invited Alex to post the capabilities of the LPS 1 and LPS 1.2 here as well.

 

Additionally, i have no idea what you referring to in regards to my "vested interest"?  My only interest here is making sure that customers who purchase the opticalRendu get the best possible performance out of it.  I do not make a power supply for the opticalRendu, and have nothing to gain regardless of how anyone powers an opticalRendu.

 

Here is what I will do in an attempt to meet whatever your needs might be:  I will directly (I have already done so indirectly, by measuring ripple on the power supply before the regulator, and this is what my current recommendation is based upon) measure the power consumption in current of the opticalRendu while processing DSD 256 and then add an appropriate amount for the possible DAC contribution to current consumption.  This will take a few more days as I am not (yet) set up with a separate optical feed for testing purposes (my only optical feed now goes directly to my main system, not to the Ice Station Zebra workshop). 

[Dutch]

@barrowsI have no needs here. All I ‘suggested’ was for Sonore to state the maximum, worst case power usage of the OpticalRendu. E.g. 0.7A@7V.

 

People do know who to ask the maximum (peak and continuous) current output capabilities of their PSU’s or current requirements of their DAC/DAC USB inputs.

 

Good luck with it all, I’m outta here!

[Dutch]

26 minutes ago, barrows said:

Additionally, i have no idea what you referring to in regards to my "vested interest"?  

 

As a designer you don’t receive royalties for every Signature OpticalRendu sold after it’s been released?

 

OK. Now I’m really outta here!

[barrows]

2 minutes ago, Dutch said:

As a designer you don’t receive royalties for every Signature OpticalRendu sold after it’s been released?

How I am compensated for my work on the Sonore Signature products has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion here which concerns power supply requirements for the opticalRendu.

[Dutch]

 

7 minutes ago, barrows said:

How I am compensated for my work on the Sonore Signature products has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion here which concerns power supply requirements for the opticalRendu.

 

Yet you mention this below, here in this thread, right before (knowingly/unknowingly) disqualifying popular competitor products...cmon who are you fooling.

 

4 hours ago, barrows said:

Sonore will almost certainly have a Signature Rendu optical version available at some point in the future, which will offer the absolute best performance possible with a built in ultra low noise ultra low impedance linear power supply.  For owners of the Signature Rendu SE there is an upgrade program in place right now to convert it to optical input which includes a completely new main board, and some additional options as well-any owners of the Signature Rendu SE who are interested should contact: [email protected]

 

Now I’m really, really, really outta here!

[barrows]

1 minute ago, Dutch said:

 

 

Yet you mention this below, here in this thread, right before disqualifying popular competitor products...cmon who are you fooling.

 

 

Now I’m really, really, really outta here!

Still not following you?  This is a Sonore sponsored forum, there is no cause for any objection to us mentioning, and indeed,  even promoting our products.

Mentioning forthcoming products has no bearing on what the power supply requirements of the opticalRendu are, those recommendations are what they are: intended to help customers get the best performance out of the opticalRendu.

[Steve Bruzonsky]

10 hours ago, barrows said:

I would say that Signature Power Supply is certainly one of the best options for the opticalRendu as it was designed specifically for the requirements of the Rendu series of products and is a very high performance supply.

 

Even better in terms of performance is the power supply built in to the Sonore Signature Rendu SE.  Sonore will almost certainly have a Signature Rendu optical version available at some point in the future, which will offer the absolute best performance possible with a built in ultra low noise ultra low impedance linear power supply.  For owners of the Signature Rendu SE there is an upgrade program in place right now to convert it to optical input which includes a completely new main board, and some additional options as well-any owners of the Signature Rendu SE who are interested should contact: [email protected]

 

 

My Signature Rendu SE will arrive for Sonore to upgrade to the optical version tomorrow!!!@@@ EXCITING!!!

 

 

 

[Mercman]

3 hours ago, Steve Bruzonsky said:

 

My Signature Rendu SE will arrive for Sonore to upgrade to the optical version tomorrow!!!@@@ EXCITING!!!

 

 

 

Mine should arrive tomorrow for updating!

[jaaptina]

I've got the LPS-1 and ultraRendu. UltraRendu is connected to Job INTegrated amp. Don't know if the usb input of the Job INTegrated draws any current. I think not. I only play flac and wav files up to 24bit 96kHz (mostly Tidal) If I buy the opticalRendu do I really need a more powerful psu? 

[barrows]

3 hours ago, jaaptina said:

I've got the LPS-1 and ultraRendu. UltraRendu is connected to Job INTegrated amp. Don't know if the usb input of the Job INTegrated draws any current. I think not. I only play flac and wav files up to 24bit 96kHz (mostly Tidal) If I buy the opticalRendu do I really need a more powerful psu? 

@Superdad, Alex, are you comfortable with the LPS 1 and LPS 1.2 running at just under 1A continuous at 7 VDC output?  For use with DACs which do not draw any current from the USB bus it is very likely that the LPS supplies from UpTone are entirely adequate.  This week I will be measuring the precise current consumption of the opticalRendu under a few different conditions.  I am expecting it to be about 600-700 mA on its own (estimates based on pre regulator power supply ripple), considering I would want to recommend about 25% current headroom for the power supply, then any supply which is happy delivering 1A should be OK, as long as the DAC is not adding (much) to the current draw.

I will measure both with a DAC which draws no current, and with interfaces like the Amanero running on USB power.

[cat6man]

On 2/26/2019 at 5:26 AM, Mercman said:

 

I agree with Barrows that the Signature Rendu SE sounds best without added USB enhancement devices. I am looking forward to the optical upgrade for the SE.

 

YMMV as it will be dependent, at minimum, on your DAC

my DAC sounds better with aes/ebu than with usb

 

there is no one size fits all answer

[barrows]

23 minutes ago, cat6man said:

my DAC sounds better with aes/ebu than with usb

Is that with the Signature Rendu SE as the source?  The point being that quality of the USB output from he source makes a huge difference.  Many Rendu users find that with a Rendu, the USB input on their DAC becomes the best input, even if with other sources it was not.

[cat6man]

40 minutes ago, barrows said:

Is that with the Signature Rendu SE as the source?  The point being that quality of the USB output from he source makes a huge difference.  Many Rendu users find that with a Rendu, the USB input on their DAC becomes the best input, even if with other sources it was not.

 

with multiple Rendu units, including ultraRendu with lps-1.2.

the usb output direct to dac was compared to usb output feeding various adapters that converted to aes/ebu.

in every case, aes/ebu sounded better with my DAC.

this was true with my DAC using moderately priced D->D converters (e.g. sotm dx-usbHD and Matrix) and high end (TotalDAC reclocker--the best by far).

 

i'm looking forward to feeding my TotalDAC reclocker with the opticalRendu as further reducing upstream noise is clearly important.

just changing the ultraRendu power supply from lps-1 to lps-1.2 was immediately audible, even with a reclocker after the ultraRendu!

 

i have not tried the signature unit though, so i can't comment on that specifically.

 

update:  this does raise the issue of whether or not a super power supply would further elevate the opticalRendu in my configuration.........guess i'll have to wait until April to start investigating that question.   i'll start with the lps-1.2 but i'll be very interested in the feedback of others who may try other power supply units.

 

[Matias]

2 hours ago, cat6man said:

update:  this does raise the issue of whether or not a super power supply would further elevate the opticalRendu in my configuration.........guess i'll have to wait until April to start investigating that question.   i'll start with the lps-1.2 but i'll be very interested in the feedback of others who may try other power supply units.

 

Here are some options. Would be interesting to see how they fare with the upcoming opticalRendu.

 

https://audiobacon.net/2018/09/20/uptone-audio-ultracap-lps-1-2-out-the-gate-musicality/2/