ISO Regen performance Improvement Cheap!

[sandyk]

2 minutes ago, MikeyFresh said:

 

Your post seems off-topic here, really just geared towards drawing people into arguments (and that is your M.O.).

 

Why not start your own thread on that very topic elsewhere instead?

 

I feel sure that George would help him out there too, but start much higher in the spectrum like with Radar, Klystrons , Lecher lines etc.  !

[Cornan]

5 hours ago, BigGuy said:

All seriousness aside, I thought this thread needed some comic relief...

You're welcome!

...but what about the foamed teflon?

 

You where right! ?

 

I like teflon on cables but hate to peel teflon off the wire on thin gauge wires. My next experimental cable will actually be a silver plated 28 awg wire with teflon tubing to see if less gauge makes a difference or not with the Kemet’s inline. I have used this cable for grounding purposes with great results just like the Vanguard 1mm wire (which also got teflon tubing BTW)

 

However, I am not sure what the difference is between normal teflon and foamed teflon? Air injection? If that is the case it seems like a good idea, especially since Supra DAC uses this teqnique (but not with teflon) and that cable is really refind in the treble area IMO. Do you have a link to where I can buy foamed teflon BTW?

[marce]

15 hours ago, mansr said:

Obviously. The question is how bad the downstream regulators need to be before the addition of an external capacitor makes an audible difference. If a £0.15 capacitor provides such a whopping improvement, why didn't the manufacturer include it in the design?

I do keep saying that in reality the whole power delivery system should be considered, from main supply to device power pins, for any sort of circuit analogue or digital, with digital often being more problematic because of the high initial current draw, so the decoupling is as critical as the main supply, if not more so. Whereas as audio frequency analogue the main supply plays a big part, though local decoupling is still required. 

[marce]

12 hours ago, Abtr said:

It seems that a polymer aluminum capacitor (e.g., Kemet A750) across DC input may improve SQ by DC buffering/smoothing, shunting AC noise (decoupling and bypassing), and fast transient response to load change. I will try it with my active crossover boards and if that works one might ask why such a simple, cheap and obvious tweak isn't implemented as standard in all audio equipment?  

Most equipment is designed with decoupling capacitors on the board, it would have to be a bad design not to have any, the whole power delivery system is critical... 

[BigGuy]

6 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

You where right! ?

 

I like teflon on cables but hate to peel teflon off the wire on thin gauge wires. My next experimental cable will actually be a silver plated 28 awg wire with teflon tubing to see if less gauge makes a difference or not with the Kemet’s inline. I have used this cable for grounding purposes with great results just like the Vanguard 1mm wire (which also got teflon tubing BTW)

 

However, I am not sure what the difference is between normal teflon and foamed teflon? Air injection? If that is the case it seems like a good idea, especially since Supra DAC uses this teqnique (but not with teflon) and that cable is really refind in the treble area IMO. Do you have a link to where I can buy foamed teflon BTW?

Source of the foamed Teflon that I found is <https://www.vhaudio.com/wire.html>

Scroll down to " .99999 UniCrystal™ OCC SILVER Wire and HyperFlex™ Tubing ".

ID is 3mm and OD is 6mm, IIRC.

With a dielectric constant of 1.3 it is very close to vacuum with 1.0

 

re the Kemet caps, was 560uf chosen for a particular reason particularly since they do come in various flavors?

[Cornan]

3 hours ago, marce said:

Most equipment is designed with decoupling capacitors on the board, it would have to be a bad design not to have any, the whole power delivery system is critical... 

 

I found this quite interesting! ?

 

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/267590/decoupling-capacitors-low-esr-electrolytic-vs-electrolytic-ceramic-vs-ceramic

 

 

Is there any capacitors that you would specificly recommend to try at the DC cable path @marce?

[Cornan]

1 minute ago, BigGuy said:

Source of the foamed Teflon that I found is <https://www.vhaudio.com/wire.html>

Scroll down to " .99999 UniCrystal™ OCC SILVER Wire and HyperFlex™ Tubing ".

ID is 3mm and OD is 6mm, IIRC.

With a dielectric constant of 1.3 it is very close to vacuum with 1.0

 

re the Kemet caps, was 560uf chosen for a particular reason particularly since they do come in various flavors?

 

Thanks, I will look into it! ?

 

The Kemet´s 25v/560uF was chosen only because it is the very same value used on the LS-HPULN. Stammheim have tried numerous caps before choosing this perticular one for the LS-HPULN. However, he also like the Panasonic OS-CONs as well. I have´nt tried those just yet.

[paulkouhan]

Hi

 

I ordered the Kemet 25V 560uF capacitor yesterday. I ordered also some 16V 560uF as well, they have a slightly better ESR.

[mansr]

3 hours ago, marce said:

I do keep saying that in reality the whole power delivery system should be considered, from main supply to device power pins, for any sort of circuit analogue or digital, with digital often being more problematic because of the high initial current draw, so the decoupling is as critical as the main supply, if not more so. Whereas as audio frequency analogue the main supply plays a big part, though local decoupling is still required. 

I've dealt with a few power supply issues in poorly designed devices. None would have been remedied by adding a smallish capacitor at the external power input, which is what people are doing here.

[marce]

5 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

I found this quite interesting! ?

 

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/267590/decoupling-capacitors-low-esr-electrolytic-vs-electrolytic-ceramic-vs-ceramic

 

 

Is there any capacitors that you would specificly recommend to try at the DC cable path @marce?

Electrolytic/polymer for the larger reservoir caps, X7R ceramic for local decoupling caps next to a devices pins... For digital the smallest possible package for a given value, package size being more critical than absolute capacitance. Analog IC's etc again ceramic X7R next to the pins. Crystals/Oscillators very small COG next to pins, larger X7R next to it.

There is more will reply in more detail after my 3-5 hour drive home up the M6... 

[marce]

10 minutes ago, mansr said:

I've dealt with a few power supply issues in poorly designed devices. None would have been remedied by adding a smallish capacitor at the external power input, which is what people are doing here.

No I agree, the whole power delivery system has to be addressed at the design stage... One of the first thing to suffer when cost cutting comes in is the power supply, frustrating as in my view a system is only as good as its power supplies...

[mansr]

5 minutes ago, marce said:

Electrolytic/polymer for the larger reservoir caps, X7R ceramic for local decoupling caps next to a devices pins... For digital the smallest possible package for a given value, package size being more critical than absolute capacitance. Analog IC's etc again ceramic X7R next to the pins. Crystals/Oscillators very small COG next to pins, larger X7R next to it.

Add point of load regulators for the most demanding parts.

[marce]

1 minute ago, mansr said:

Add point of load regulators for the most demanding parts.

Yep and pi filter isolation of the main distributed power before POL regulators help.

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, marce said:

Yep and pi filter isolation of the main distributed power before POL regulators help.

And when you've done all that, an additional 560 μF cap on the input won't make an iota of difference.

[Cornan]

@marce & @mansr So what you really suggest as a good suggestion for this DC cable thread is to rebuild the intire power delivery system rather than adding a couple of cheap inline 560uF caps to the DC cables? Really? ?

 

If I get you right @marce you would consider Kemet´s polymer caps at one side and XR7 ceramic close to the powered device to be a viable option to try on DC cables if I do not want to rebuild my whole power delivery system? ?

[mansr]

8 minutes ago, Cornan said:

If I get you right @marce you would consider Kemet´s polymer caps at one side and XR7 ceramic close to the powered device to be a viable option to try on DC cables if I do not want to rebuild my whole power delivery system? ?

The ceramic caps go as close to each IC as possible, preferably less than 1 mm.

[Cornan]

14 minutes ago, mansr said:

The ceramic caps go as close to each IC as possible, preferably less than 1 mm.

 

Thanks! ? Since I will solder them onto the actual DC cable plug terminalI guess that´s close enough? Any specific value that I should choose for for example 12VDC/1,5A (Brooklyn DAC)?

[Speedskater]

11 hours ago, MikeyFresh said:

 

Your post seems off-topic here, really just geared towards drawing people into arguments (and that is your M.O.).

Why not start your own thread on that very topic elsewhere instead?

The post I replied to was in reference to the use of FEP insulation in a cable!

Just how is my replay off-topic?

 

On 6/27/2018 at 10:05 AM, BigGuy said:

Is there any value added to putting foamed FEP around a squadcore construction?

 

[Speedskater]

11 hours ago, MikeyFresh said:

Your post seems off-topic here, really just geared towards drawing people into arguments (and that is your M.O.).

My M.O is about good engineering principles and practices.

Just how does good engineering draw people into arguments?

[BigGuy]

1 hour ago, Cornan said:

 

Thanks! ? Since I will solder them onto the actual DC cable plug terminalI guess that´s close enough? Any specific value that I should choose for for example 12VDC/1,5A (Brooklyn DAC)?

As a follow up to get my ducks in a row...

 

Why the choice of 560uf for the Kemet?     (suggested is 16V with lower ESR of 13mOhm vs 25V with 15mOhm)

Value for XR7 ceramic caps?

Kemet or XR7 better at output of power supply?

Is capacitor worthwhile addition for all DC supplies...SMPS, LPS, Battery?

[mansr]

2 hours ago, Cornan said:

Thanks! ? Since I will solder them onto the actual DC cable plug terminalI guess that´s close enough? Any specific value that I should choose for for example 12VDC/1,5A (Brooklyn DAC)?

The ceramic (X7R) decoupling caps need to be part of the product design and placed as close as possible to each IC. Adding one at the main power input isn't likely to accomplish anything. If it does, you should throw out the DAC and buy a properly constructed one.

[Cornan]

26 minutes ago, mansr said:

The ceramic (X7R) decoupling caps need to be part of the product design and placed as close as possible to each IC. Adding one at the main power input isn't likely to accomplish anything. If it does, you should throw out the DAC and buy a properly constructed one.

 

So back to square one? Kemet’s cannot possibly improve because Brooklyn DAC is not properly constructed in your opinion? So LS-HPULN, BluWave USB to Spdif board & LPS-1.2 are not properly done either when the Kemet’s do imorove there as well? And the router? And Aqvox switch? And ISO Regen? And Aries Mini? They all improved with this tweak! 

[Cornan]

46 minutes ago, BigGuy said:

Why the choice of 560uf for the Kemet?

 

I answered this question to you here:

I assume the other questions was for @mansr and @marce right?

 

[BigGuy]

8 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

I answered this question to you here:

I assume the other questions was for @mansr and @marce right?

 

My apologies for missing the cap value explanation!  I saw the Panasonic mention but missed the connection with LS-HUPLN.

 

Whoever wants to wade in...  I am on steep part of learning curve.

[totoxio]

Last night, I put a coaxial to optical converter between the Singxer F1 and my Chord Mojo. Of course, RFI is gone. It sounds smooth and detailed. Mojo does reclocking of spdif input so jitter shouldn't be a problem. My question is, should all this cable rolling make any difference for those who use optical input?