EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[Bones13]

Only half way through Q2. They still have a while. At this point, no news is good news. I figure when it’s ready, they will announce/send emails for pre-order. I’d be more concerned if they were here talking about difficulties in the development process.

[skatbelt]

13 hours ago, Bones13 said:

Only half way through Q2. They still have a while. At this point, no news is good news. I figure when it’s ready, they will announce/send emails for pre-order. I’d be more concerned if they were here talking about difficulties in the development process.

 

Well, there is a saying that no news is good news but it is extremely quiet in this corner of the Uptone forum lately. I get the impression that there are some non disclosured hiccups..

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, skatbelt said:

Well, there is a saying that no news is good news but it is extremely quiet in this corner of the Uptone forum lately. I get the impression that there are some non disclosured hiccups..

 

Not at all!  Things are moving quickly now.  The recent set of prototype boards is working perfectly--with data (and music!) going end to end, through the 3 Ethernet chips, through the 600MHz isolators and the 10GHz-capable differential flip-flops, and with the clock synthesizer.

This is quite exciting for us, as it means Pinocchio will be a real boy soon! 

 

Now it all about the power networks and the final board layout.  The 13 data and clock devices on the board need a total of about 22 voltage lines (several chips require 3 different voltages).  There will be at least six LT3045 regs on the 'A' side, and four on the 'B' side--plus step-down pre-regulators for at least half of those. Not counting all the select X7R output caps for those regs and the rest of the passive parts for the power networks, we are already well about $50 just in premium voltage regulators! (And that's at 2,500 piece pricing for the regs--which sadly Linear Tech charges near the same for 100 pcs. as 10,000 pcs.)

 

John is pretty tied up this week, but he will be starting on the final layout next week.  We expect that to take at least 10 days, giving a good deal of time for triple checking and also working with me on the spacing of the jacks and switches at the busy edge of the board.  Depending upon our degree of confidence, we will then run somewhere between 3-10 pre-production boards (for such a small run those will likely cost us $800 each, so 3 if we are unsure and 8-10 if we think the will be useable for a small beta-test group).

 

As soon as all the jacks/switches/LED/ground screw positions are at production spots on the layout, a lifelong friend of mine (former CEO and Chief Industrial Designer from my Hovland years) will do the CAD and lettering files for the casework--as he has for all other UpTone products--so I can then get the enclosures on order.

 

Please don't ask for an availability estimate.  To me the above looks like 2 months--assuming no issues or parts shortages.  But the days do go by quickly.  You can be I'll keep everyone up to date here whenever there is news to report or pictures to post. 

 

Cheers!

--Alex C.

 

[Jud]

Nicely summarized. 🙂

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

Nicely summarized. 🙂

 

Thanks.  And I forgot to mention that EtherREGEN is going to be on a 6-layer circuit board instead of a 4-layer. John is choosing to do it that way both for performance reasons and because he feels it will actually be easier to route everything. 

All this stuff is WAY above my pay/brain grade so I of course go along with whatever John says is best. 

[skatbelt]

8 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Not at all!  Things are moving quickly now.  The recent set of prototype boards is working perfectly--with data (and music!) going end to end, through the 3 Ethernet chips, through the 600MHz isolators and the 10GHz-capable differential flip-flops, and with the clock synthesizer.

This is quite exciting for us, as it means Pinocchio will be a real boy soon! 

 

Now it all about the power networks and the final board layout.  The 13 data and clock devices on the board need a total of about 22 voltage lines (several chips require 3 different voltages).  There will be at least six LT3045 regs on the 'A' side, and four on the 'B' side--plus step-down pre-regulators for at least half of those. Not counting all the select X7R output caps for those regs and the rest of the passive parts for the power networks, we are already well about $50 just in premium voltage regulators! (And that's at 2,500 piece pricing for the regs--which sadly Linear Tech charges near the same for 100 pcs. as 10,000 pcs.)

 

John is pretty tied up this week, but he will be starting on the final layout next week.  We expect that to take at least 10 days, giving a good deal of time for triple checking and also working with me on the spacing of the jacks and switches at the busy edge of the board.  Depending upon our degree of confidence, we will then run somewhere between 3-10 pre-production boards (for such a small run those will likely cost us $800 each, so 3 if we are unsure and 8-10 if we think the will be useable for a small beta-test group).

 

As soon as all the jacks/switches/LED/ground screw positions are at production spots on the layout, a lifelong friend of mine (former CEO and Chief Industrial Designer from my Hovland years) will do the CAD and lettering files for the casework--as he has for all other UpTone products--so I can then get the enclosures on order.

 

Please don't ask for an availability estimate.  To me the above looks like 2 months--assuming no issues or parts shortages.  But the days do go by quickly.  You can be I'll keep everyone up to date here whenever there is news to report or pictures to post. 

 

Cheers!

--Alex C.

 

 

Thank you Alex. An update like this, once in a while, will put our minds (certainly mine) at ease.

[Trabb]

It sounds like UltraCap LPS-1 with its 1A would not be able to handle EtherREGEN as planned. Am I right ? 

[Superdad]

8 hours ago, Trabb said:

It sounds like UltraCap LPS-1 with its 1A would not be able to handle EtherREGEN as planned. Am I right ? 

 

No, that is not a certainty yet.  It likely will be very close, but there is still a chance that the EtherREGEN will come in under the 1.1A-continuous limit of our UltraCap supplies. We can't defy physics, but we do have a few tricks up our sleeves. 

 

Remember too that the EtherREGEN is not only filled with the best available voltage regulators (and carefully planned power networks around each), but that by design the whole unit is to be highly effective at blocking AC leakage--the primary evil of SMPS.  So while I am sure some will wish to power the EtherREGEN with a linear PS, it is as yet a complete unknown what if any sonic benefit will be gained versus using the SMPS brick that will be included. (Same UpTone-branded 36W, internally ground-shunted unit that is supplied as the charger with the UltraCap LPS-1.2).

[elan120]

26 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

No, that is not a certainty yet.  It likely will be very close, but there is still a chance that the EtherREGEN will come in under the 1.1A-continuous limit of our UltraCap supplies. We can't defy physics, but we do have a few tricks up our sleeves. 

 

Remember too that the EtherREGEN is not only filled with the best available voltage regulators (and carefully planned power networks around each), but that by design the whole unit is to be highly effective at blocking AC leakage--the primary evil of SMPS.  So while I am sure some will wish to power the EtherREGEN with a linear PS, it is as yet a complete unknown what if any sonic benefit will be gained versus using the SMPS brick that will be included. (Same UpTone-branded 36W, internally ground-shunted unit that is supplied as the charger with the UltraCap LPS-1.2).

Will the upper input voltage be 12VDC?

[Superdad]

11 minutes ago, elan120 said:

Will the upper input voltage be 12VDC?

 

Yes, 7~12V will be the specified input voltage range for the EtherREGEN.

[LowMidHigh]

@SuperDad:

 

Will unshielded CAT6 cables, going in and out, suffice, or shielded is preferable? 

 

 

[R1200CL]

@LowMidHigh

You may want to differ between cables that is using metal plugs, and hence are able to add a connection between devices through the shield. As you probably know the BJ has a shielded cable with plastic plugs. 

 

And there are available cables with JSSG360 with metal plugs that doesn’t connect the shield to the plug as well. 

 

Expensive cables like the Vodka is another option, not following the standard, where the cable is shielded, but the shield is not connected to the plug. 

[LowMidHigh]

6 hours ago, R1200CL said:

@LowMidHigh

You may want to differ between cables that is using metal plugs, and hence are able to add a connection between devices through the shield. As you probably know the BJ has a shielded cable with plastic plugs. 

 

And there are available cables with JSSG360 with metal plugs that doesn’t connect the shield to the plug as well. 

 

Expensive cables like the Vodka is another option, not following the standard, where the cable is shielded, but the shield is not connected to the plug. 

 

Thanks for expanding the discussion and lying down multiple options in a clear fashion. 

Still, in that light, the question is what does UpTone recommend for said future device?

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

Thanks for expanding the discussion and lying down multiple options in a clear fashion. 

Still, in that light, the question is what does UpTone recommend for said future device?

 

Sorry, but until EtherREGEN is done and shipping, we will not have time to experiment with Ethernet cables. 

 

We expect that the only cable that will matter will be the one coming out of the 'B' side lone port and going into the DAC-connected renderer.  The whole point of the EtherREGEN's sophisticated isolated, dual-clock domain design is to make most upstream variables not matter.

 

All that said, in general we prefer that Ethernet cables not have their shields tied at both ends.  Even though all Ethernet ports have transformers (of varying levels--see my post elsewhere about those), I just don't see much good coming from connecting grounds between Ethernet devices via shield connections. 

[marce]

On 5/9/2019 at 6:16 AM, Superdad said:

 

Thanks.  And I forgot to mention that EtherREGEN is going to be on a 6-layer circuit board instead of a 4-layer. John is choosing to do it that way both for performance reasons and because he feels it will actually be easier to route everything. 

All this stuff is WAY above my pay/brain grade so I of course go along with whatever John says is best. 

Easier to control the impedance of the routes with 6 layers, there does seem to be a preference for running high speed LVDS as microstrip on the outer layers, having half the signal in air as a dielectric and slightly faster propagation does help. It's interesting to see as digital signals get faster, layout is using more and more techniques from high speed analogue rf/microwave. It wont be long before we have speeds where signals will have to be routed as co-planer wave guides or as pseudo co-axial structures, doable on a PCB with high density interconnect designs but expensive. Looking forward to seeing pictures of the boards, always interested in looking at boards! I do it every day. Like yours they show a bit of OCD in the symmetry, years of doing IC's or PCB's does that to you.😁

This is also the fun level of Ethernet, the physical level.

Agree on shields could add more problems, than it fixes. Interesting to think about cables, quite simple to produce, plug into an RJ45...the complexity from the connector to the Phy on a PCB is way more interesting, and almost invisible to most people. A look at some of the info out there such as "en562767.pdf" will illustrate the task ahead for John.

Have fun.

[LowMidHigh]

6 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Sorry, but until EtherREGEN is done and shipping, we will not have time to experiment with Ethernet cables. 

 

We expect that the only cable that will matter will be the one coming out of the 'B' side lone port and going into the DAC-connected renderer.  The whole point of the EtherREGEN's sophisticated isolated, dual-clock domain design is to make most upstream variables not matter.

 

All that said, in general we prefer that Ethernet cables not have their shields tied at both ends.  Even though all Ethernet ports have transformers (of varying levels--see my post elsewhere about those), I just don't see much good coming from connecting grounds between Ethernet devices via shield connections. 

 

Thanks for the clarification. Very helpful.

My setup will be unshielded CAT6:  Cheap and easy to cut to size.

[jos]

On 5/14/2019 at 6:51 PM, Superdad said:

 

Sorry, but until EtherREGEN is done and shipping, we will not have time to experiment with Ethernet cables. 

 

We expect that the only cable that will matter will be the one coming out of the 'B' side lone port and going into the DAC-connected renderer.  The whole point of the EtherREGEN's sophisticated isolated, dual-clock domain design is to make most upstream variables not matter.

 

All that said, in general we prefer that Ethernet cables not have their shields tied at both ends.  Even though all Ethernet ports have transformers (of varying levels--see my post elsewhere about those), I just don't see much good coming from connecting grounds between Ethernet devices via shield connections. 

I’m using 3 Jitterbugs upstream (router, NAS, iMac). Can I sell them?

[lxgreen]

Since we are getting closer to delivery of etherREGEN, I had a couple of questions re configurations. I currently have the optical Signature RenduSE from Sonore. I use a generic FMC converter between my current  Ethernet switch and the Rendu. My options, I think, will be to 1: get the etherREGEN, and use the etherREGEN optical out directly to the optical in on the Rendu, which seems the easiest way to go. The other alternatives would be to 2: upgrade the FMC converter to the new Sonore optical converter with the existing switch or 3: use  the EtherREGEN with Ethernet port plus the Sonore optical converter. I guess the cheapest way is no.2, most direct way is no. 1, and the most expensive way is no.3. Unless I missed it, I haven’t seen any posts from Uptone indicating there is actually a SQ improvement from the etherREGEN, just technical improvements so not sure I even need to do anything until we hear if these new devices make a difference. I was wondering if someone can make some comments on which scenario makes the most sense, independent of cost.  Is there an expectation that sq and noise reduction is similar between the etherREGEN optical port and the Ethernet port? Thanks

[soares]

The fact that I introduced a Cisco switch between my router and my uRendu made a substancial SQ improvement. So I guess that such a innovator  device as the Etherregen will I am sure bring a much higher SQ to my system. Cheers

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, lxgreen said:

Since we are getting closer to delivery of etherREGEN, I had a couple of questions re configurations. I currently have the optical Signature RenduSE from Sonore.

 

Good questions.  Let's see if I can clear things up a little bit.  At least from a technical theoretical stand-point since EtherREGEN has not had more than one pair of ears on it so far. 

 

2 hours ago, lxgreen said:

I use a generic FMC converter between my current  Ethernet switch and the Rendu. My options, I think, will be to 1: get the etherREGEN, and use the etherREGEN optical out directly to the optical in on the Rendu, which seems the easiest way to go.

 

Since one of the primary purposes of EtherREGEN--and acting as a fiber media converter as you propose, this is how it differs from the opticalModule--is to create a new ultra-low-jitter isolated clock and power domain, this option will in theory be the best and simplest for you.

 

2 hours ago, lxgreen said:

The other alternatives would be to 2: upgrade the FMC converter to the new Sonore optical converter with the existing switch;

 

That would be fine too, thought it leaves the clocking in the same domain--all the way from your existing switch to the opticalRendu.  Again, it remains to be heard what the difference will be between those in your application.

 

2 hours ago, lxgreen said:

or 3: use  the EtherREGEN with Ethernet port plus the Sonore optical converter.

 

I do not see an advantage to this last option.

 

2 hours ago, lxgreen said:

I guess the cheapest way is no.2, most direct way is no. 1, and the most expensive way is no.3. Unless I missed it, I haven’t seen any posts from Uptone indicating there is actually a SQ improvement from the etherREGEN, just technical improvements so not sure I even need to do anything until we hear if these new devices make a difference.

 

Well John Swenson has been pretty tickled with what he has heard so far with the prototype boards (and he obviously has both opticalModules and an opticalRendu to play with), but we will not be making statements about what you may hear.  Much more fun to have people try the products and report.  This strategy has worked for UpTone to-date just great to-date!  (Besides, our products are sold with a 30-day, money-back, satisfaction guarantee, so no risk other than postage cost.)

 

2 hours ago, lxgreen said:

I was wondering if someone can make some comments on which scenario makes the most sense, independent of cost.  Is there an expectation that sq and noise reduction is similar between the etherREGEN optical port and the Ethernet port? Thanks

 

The EtherREGEN is quite symmetrical, so the isolated clock/power domain stuff (the "REGEN" aspect) works the same in both directions across the "moat."  I promise we will try to publish some more illustrative diagrams about the product before the launch so that people have a better understanding.  (As it is, I still need to go back and edit the very first post of this thread because of the whole fully-symmetric design changes we made about 7 months ago.)

 

====================

 

Lastly, a brief update on the end stage development :

All the voltage regulator assignments and current draw budgeting is done, and John is heavily into the final layout phase.  Total of 25 voltage regulators on the board, 12 of which are either LT3042s or LT3045s (even at pricing for 250 unit runs, that's more than $85 our cost just for the power networks!).

Remarkably, it looks like total current draw of the box will be under 1A with 12V input.  So for those who wish, the 12V-capable UltraCap LPS-1.2 in matching case will still be an option.  We will need to wait until the final pre-production boards are in hand before we know if the original LPS-1 (max. 7V/1.1A) will be able to handle the EtherREGEN (our new device will draw slightly more current at 7V than at 12V).  Might work fine except if someone fills all its ports with active Gigabit connections. 

 

Because of the complexity of the power networks in the EtherREGEN, John is so happy to be doing this as a 6-layer board and not a 4-layer board. He said it would easily take twice as long with 3x the headaches were it not for the extra layers. 

And this board has more differential signal pairs running around than nearly any board he has done before.

 

Oh, one other cool thing:

We've been going over and over how the programming of the Ethernet switch chip (its actually a part capable of being a fully managed switch be we are not running it that way; just a bunch of other key interface registers have to be set) and the clock synthesizer will be handled.  Because the synthesizer has to have a whole different set of parameters if someone decides to use an external 10MHz clock as its reference (instead of the nice Crystek CCHD-575 internal), we can't just program the synth timings and frequencies once here at our offices.  So both the switch chip and the clock synth will each have their own tiny microprocessor (which we will first flash here during production) and which will program their respective parts each time power is applied the EtherREGEN.  The couple of things I think are cool are:

1) the microprocessors turn off completely after they load their code to their assigned chips (so no noise or power draw from them);

2) for the Ethernet switch chip, there will be a vertical microUSB port on the board, and in the eventuality that later on we discover a needed or desired code change, we can make a file available on the web.  And John worked with Adafruit to figure out code such that plugging the USB cable will turn on the boot-loader, make a pseudo drive appear on the computer desktop, and when the updated code file is dragged to it the code will automatically load and be stored in the EtherREGEN.  We think this is really simple and elegant!

 

Cheers,

--Alex C.

 

[rickca]

Has John compared the sound of an EtherREGEN prototype board with 12V LPS-1.2 vs the supplied SMPS?  It would be useful to know how much a good LPS contributes to the sound.  Or maybe it doesn't.

[Superdad]

7 minutes ago, rickca said:

Has John compared the sound of an EtherREGEN prototype board with 12V LPS-1.2 vs the supplied SMPS?  It would be useful to know how much a good LPS contributes to the sound.  Or maybe it doesn't.

 

Not yet.  The current working EtherREGEN board set is too delicate to even move far on his bench.   And the power networks on that working unit are far from what is going onto the board he is laying out now.  Much more will be shown and experimented with once the real preproduction boards are in our hands.  

 

And while he and I--and maybe a few lucky beta testers--will have one, I'd rather leave it to others to say how much they do or don't hear with an upgraded PS versus the stock SMPS we will be shipping it with.  I mean really, pretty much every EtherREGEN buyer will already have some sort of nice LPS on hand to try it with--be it an UltraCap or some other.

But you knew that...

[soares]

Please feel free to invite me as a beta tester? 😂

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, soares said:

Please feel free to invite me as a beta tester? 

 

Beta test will not be for sound, it will be exclusively for network functionality and to root out any corner cases where someone might encounter an issue.  Therefore we are looking for network-savvy people who have al sorts of odd networking equipment in their home/office.

Also, for time zone and shipping cost reasons, beta testers must be located in the USA.  And the test cycle will be very short.

 

 

BTW, John has finished parts placing and is now well into the routing phase.  Boy oh boy is this going to be a very densely populated board!  He is really thankful for doing this as a 6-layer board, though we even joked today about potentially going to 8 layers.  

I'll probably post some layout pics next week--just to keep teasing everyone and to show how real EtherREGEN is becoming...

[soares]

Well, I am based in Manhattan. At least I am qualified based on the country... 

For the rest, I have my doubts... 🙂

Cheers, 

Jorge