HOW DOES A PERFECT DAC ANALOG SIGNAL LOOK DIFFERENT THAN A CHEAP DAC

[gmgraves]

2 minutes ago, barrows said:

double Huh?

 

ESS dacs are multi bit, MSB is R2R, and dCS is multi-bit, similar to ESS but differntly implemented.

 

Are you saying that ESS SabreDACs are not Delta Sigma?

[barrows]

8 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 

Just responding to this line from Beerandmusic in which he wrote:

"...but as barrows pointed out there is much in an analog output that can't be measured..."

GM, respectfully, I never said this... not sure how I "pointed it out"

 

ESS Sabre DACs covert at 5 or 6 bits (cannot remember which) and dCS is very similar, I believe 5 bits...  but yeah, they are DSM, as opposed to MSB which is R2R, discrete.

[beerandmusic]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

 

Just responding to this line from Beerandmusic in which he wrote:

"...but as barrows pointed out there is much in an analog output that can't be measured..."

he provided a link to a video by ESS cto that stated differences that could be heard that was only possible by the hair attached to muscles in our ears....pick it up at 24minutes into video, and he actually states people can hear what "their" instrumentation can't measure...i suppose it is possible that ESS can't afford better instrumentation...but he then continues and says they have the best instrumentation available....either way, my take-away is the same.

 

 

[fas42]

2 hours ago, esldude said:

The Benchmark can be had used for $1500, is very, very good at isolating itself from the USB input.  Uses the ESS DAC.  Does DSD.  And has near SOTA performance.  Uses balanced pairs of the DACs like you have been going on about.  Seems right up your alley.

 

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/da-converters-benchmark-dac2-hgc-dac-d-a-converter-black-2892-2017-08-14-digital

 

Summing up the Benchmark DAC2 HGC's measured performance is easy: It's simply superb.—John Atkinson
 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-dac2-hgc-da-processorheadphone-amplifier-measurements

 

https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-dac2-hgc-digital-to-analog-audio-converter

 

 

 

 

 

As you were so positive about this brand, I Googled a bit. A review on Gearslutz caught my eye, no nonsense people on this website, should be a good indicator ...

 

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/1023798-benchmark-dac2-hgc-review.html

 

Hmmm ...

[Ralf11]

IIRC, the Benchmark will also do "source media [that] is everything under the sun"

 

their ideas make sense, and at least one careful listener really likes their amp

 

for Redbook, try a Yggy

 

Oppo Sonica can also be tried and returned

 

 

[Charles Hansen]

On 8/30/2017 at 0:45 PM, beerandmusic said:

 i couldn't say one sounded better than another. 

 

I sold most of my dacs (still have 3), but i do plan on buying one more, but I will be patient in my next purchase after spending over a year of trying different dacs only to be less than impressed.

 

my question is how much different will the waveform be between a 50K DAC and a 1K DAC?

And why can't it be measured and compared?

 

Hello Beer,

 

I would say that the problem is below $1500, there isn't going to be all that much difference in DACs. The only ones that stand out at any given price point would be:

 

$100 = AudioQuest DragonFly Black

$200 = AudioQuest DragonFly Red

$400 = Pono Player (discontinued, but you can still find some)

 

To get significantly better sound than a Pono Player (strictly my opinion and my experience), you are going to have to spend at least $2300 for the Schiit Yggdrasil. After that you are going to have to spend between $5,000 and $10,000 for a meaningful improvement in sound quality (or possibly go used, but the ones that sound better than the Schiit Ygddrasil are rarely sold on the used market).

 

Basically what you are asking is why does a $20,000 econobox pretty much drive the same, whether it is made by Toyota or Nissan or VW or Kia or GM or Ford. It's really hard to make anything in less than quantities of 10,000 units in the US for under $1,000. The three DACs mentioned above below $1000 are (were) all built in batches of at least 10,000 at a time.

 

Once you get to the $1000 price point, its impossible to have massive quantities of scale as the market simply isn't there. Schiit can give you a better price by selling direct.

 

As GMGraves pointed out (is that you George?) nothing will be visible on the analog waveform of an oscilloscope between the just about any DAC at any price, including the $5 ones built in to your laptop. A full suite of tests as done by Stereophile with $50,000 worth of test equipment will show some minor differences, but your ears are a far better tool. Trying to use measurements to test audio equipment is about as smart as using measurements to test wines or food. Good luck with that. A mouse's brain literally has more computing power than every single computer ever made tied together. Nature is far, FAR smarter than people. Sorry to disappoint you there.

[mansr]

3 hours ago, Charles Hansen said:

To get significantly better sound than a Pono Player (strictly my opinion and my experience), you are going to have to spend at least $2300 for the Schiit Yggdrasil.

You were involved in the design of the Pono Player, right? Might you be a wee bit biased?

 

What do you make of DACs like the TEAC UD-503? I don't have one, but at $1000 it looks like decent value based on specs and reviews. I have a $400 Tascam recording interface that performs very well

 

3 hours ago, Charles Hansen said:

As GMGraves pointed out (is that you George?) nothing will be visible on the analog waveform of an oscilloscope between the just about any DAC at any price, including the $5 ones built in to your laptop

I have definitely seen differences between DACs on an oscilloscope. Mostly bad DACs, but differences nonetheless.

 

3 hours ago, Charles Hansen said:

A mouse's brain literally has more computing power than every single computer ever made tied together.

That's a stupid statement. A brain isn't a computer and vice versa, so a comparison like that is meaningless. Brains are indeed very good at some things, but they are absolutely terrible at others. Computers are generally good in areas where brains fall short. That's why they were invented, after all.

[Charles Hansen]

11 minutes ago, mansr said:

1) You were involved in the design of the Pono Player, right? Might you be a wee bit biased?

 

2) What do you make of DACs like the TEAC UD-503? I don't have one, but at $1000 it looks like decent value based on specs and reviews. I have a $400 Tascam recording interface that performs very well

 

3) That's a stupid statement. A brain isn't a computer and vice versa, so a comparison like that is meaningless. Brains are indeed very good at some things, but they are absolutely terrible at others. Computers are generally good in areas where brains fall short. That's why they were invented, after all.

 

1) Of course I'm biased. My opinion would literally be worthless if I weren't biased. My opinions are based of decades of building and designing both analog and digital products. Without any experience I wouldn't have any bias - or opinions to offer.

 

2) TEAC are doing a handful of things that will likely make it sound noticeably better than (say) the original Benchmark DAC at $1200. But it won't sound as good as the Pono Player. (That is strictly in my biased opinion, of course.) If for some reason you felt you needed some special features that unit offers, that would be one reason to consider it. In terms of sound quality for the price point, it is likely a better choice than many - but not to the point where it would stand out as a strong recommendation. In general the Japanese companies are excellent at making very reliable and well-built products with a good feature set and decent sound quality.

 

But don't forget that the reason that the high-end market exists at all is because (mostly US-based) companies wiped the floor with Japanese companies in terms of sound quality. Back in the '70s the big Japanese brands were Sony, Pioneer, Kenwood, Sansui, Yamaha, and the like. Marantz was transitioning from being US built to Japanese built. Denon had a very small presence. Then came along Audio Research and the original Mark Levinson equipment designed by John Curl and everything else was toast - even US companies like Dynaco, McIntosh, and the like.

 

The major Japanese companies have never been able to build amazing sounding audio equipment. The only exception has been when they have hired foreigners to help run their programs - specifically TAD, first with Bart Locanthi (ex-JBL) and much later with Andrew Jones (ex-KEF). One thing that the Japanese do make that is world-class are moving-coil phono cartidges. Most come from hand craftsmen working in the "Samurai" mentality, but even the Denon DL-103 is pretty darned good for the money. They also made some excellent sounding direct-drive turntables - so much better at mechanical things than electronics. There are also some very small "Samurai" craftsmen making horn loudspeakers and tube-type electronics that are excellent, but they are very small, even by high-end standards.

 

3) The point wasn't necessarily about computers specifically, but rather technology in general. Modern test equipment is generally computer-based. It can measure higher and lower frequencies than we can hear. But no microphone can measure as low of an SPL as a human ear - the electronics are just too noisy. The human ear can hear a sound that moves the eardrum less than the diameter of a single hydrogen atom. Most people get confused about the limitations of modern test equipment, so I was just throwing out some facts to put things in perspective.

 

Hope that helps,

Charles Hansen

[mansr]

10 minutes ago, Charles Hansen said:

TEAC are doing a handful of things that will likely make it sound noticeably better than (say) the original Benchmark DAC at $1200. But it won't sound as good as the Pono Player.

What makes the Pono Player so special? I gather it uses your interpolation filters. Anything else?

[plissken]

2 hours ago, Charles Hansen said:

2) TEAC are doing a handful of things that will likely make it sound noticeably better than (say) the original Benchmark DAC at $1200. But it won't sound as good as the Pono Player.

 

The old 'The other engineers didn't go to the same EE school in the Tibetan mountains I went to' theory.

 

Or the EE yellow bus theory. Pride cometh before the fall.  

[plissken]

2 hours ago, Charles Hansen said:

 Most people get confused about the limitations of modern test equipment,

 

Hope that helps,

Charles Hansen

 

Most people get confused about the limitations of sighted testing.

[beerandmusic]

7 hours ago, Charles Hansen said:

 

Hello Beer,

 

I would say that the problem is below $1500, there isn't going to be all that much difference in DACs. The only ones that stand out at any given price point would be:

 

$100 = AudioQuest DragonFly Black

$200 = AudioQuest DragonFly Red

$400 = Pono Player (discontinued, but you can still find some)

 

To get significantly better sound than a Pono Player (strictly my opinion and my experience), you are going to have to spend at least $2300 for the Schiit Yggdrasil. After that you are going to have to spend between $5,000 and $10,000 for a meaningful improvement in sound quality (or possibly go used, but the ones that sound better than the Schiit Ygddrasil are rarely sold on the used market).

 

Basically what you are asking is why does a $20,000 econobox pretty much drive the same, whether it is made by Toyota or Nissan or VW or Kia or GM or Ford. It's really hard to make anything in less than quantities of 10,000 units in the US for under $1,000. The three DACs mentioned above below $1000 are (were) all built in batches of at least 10,000 at a time.

 

Once you get to the $1000 price point, its impossible to have massive quantities of scale as the market simply isn't there. Schiit can give you a better price by selling direct.

 

As GMGraves pointed out (is that you George?) nothing will be visible on the analog waveform of an oscilloscope between the just about any DAC at any price, including the $5 ones built in to your laptop. A full suite of tests as done by Stereophile with $50,000 worth of test equipment will show some minor differences, but your ears are a far better tool. Trying to use measurements to test audio equipment is about as smart as using measurements to test wines or food. Good luck with that. A mouse's brain literally has more computing power than every single computer ever made tied together. Nature is far, FAR smarter than people. Sorry to disappoint you there.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this opinion. 

Like i have said i have tried over a dozen dacs, and where I may not hear significant differences, i can hear differences and improvement in SQ in several of the dacs.    I currently have a $380 used multibit bifrost that will blow away the pono, and wouldn't even consider the pono as an optional comparison.  Even my $80 used KORG will blow that away imho.  My reservations are that i don't find "much" difference between a $300 ifi dac and a $1000 Teac Nt503, and am reluctant to spend more after not hearing any "substantial" improvements.  I will buy one final DAC (for sure under $2K), when i believe technology has caught up and driven down prices....My last DAC i tried was the the TEAC NT503 (and i have tried more expensive), and their was a 2 year break between my previous attempt of trying something "better".  I don't believe i can get much better than doing DSD over DLNA to the NT503 short of $2K in previous contenders.  But I do have high hopes with the new ESS chips and dual mono-mono design with the LKS, but will wait patiently to hear more about it and ensure any bugs are worked out, before i make the plunge.  I would probably even pay $500 more for a USA version of same design if the design gets continued good reviews.  I never went as far as saying a pono will be as good as playing DSD over DLNA on an NT503....that is stretching what i have suggested.

 

NOTE: i believe i sold my pono before they even were capable of playing DSD, so that may or may not be relevant to my personal testing.

[barrows]

Folks, I suggest being very careful if you choose to criticize Charlie Hansen.  We are very lucky to have him giving advice here, as he knows more about high end audio design than virtually anyone else who ever posts on these forums.  All of us could learn a lot form his posts, so please treat him respectfully.

The fact that he is recommending a product (Pono Player) no longer in production, which he will have no benefit from the sale of, is evidence that he cares about sound quality, and helping people get the best sound they can, whatever their budget.

[plissken]

2 minutes ago, barrows said:

Folks, I suggest being very careful if you choose to criticize Charlie Hansen.  We are very lucky to have him giving advice here, as he knows more about high end audio design than virtually anyone else who ever posts on these forums.  All of us could learn a lot form his posts, so please treat him respectfully.

 

Read more  

 

The 'appeal to authority' argument.... While he denigrates pretty much the entire Japanese Audio EE's out there. 

 

Got it 

[Dr Tone]

11 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

I currently have a $380 used multibit bifrost that will blow away the pono, and wouldn't even consider the pono as an optional comparison.  Even my $80 used KORG will blow that away.

 

Subjective opinion of course but be a bit more specific, what do they do better that blows away the Pono?  I've owned the Ayre Codex in the past which is similar to the Pono and there is very little that "absolutely blows it away".

[barrows]

1 minute ago, plissken said:

 

The 'appeal to authority' argument.... While he denigrates pretty much the entire Japanese Audio EE's out there. 

 

Got it 

You can choose to learn something from someone who knows much, much, much more about it than you do, or you can stick your head down between your legs under the sand, it is your choice.  A professional audio designer/company owner with the record of Charles Hansen deserves respect; of course you do not have to agree with him, but I would suggest that you consider what he offers carefully, as you might learn something.

[beerandmusic]

7 hours ago, Charles Hansen said:

 

Hello Beer,

 

I would say that the problem is below $1500, there isn't going to be all that much difference in DACs. The only ones that stand out at any given price point would be:

 

$100 = AudioQuest DragonFly Black

$200 = AudioQuest DragonFly Red

$400 = Pono Player (discontinued, but you can still find some)

 

On a side note, I am glad that a DAC engineer also agrees "not significant" differences below $1500, and that is close to my maximum budget...  My main point is that I believe technology (after a patient 3 year wait) is VERY close to a change in that belief...with the ESS introduction of the ES9038 and  the introduction of a DUAL mono mono mode LKS DAC using those chips....at least I HOPE SO (fingers crossed), and confident enough to make that prediction.....it was several years back ago when I made the prediction that DSD was here for the long haul and was laughed off this board not to return for well over a year.

 

[plissken]

Just now, barrows said:

You can choose to learn something from someone who knows much, much, much more about it than you do, or you can stick your head down between your legs under the sand, it is your choice.  A professional audio designer/company owner with the record of Charles Hansen deserves respect; of course you do not have to agree with him, but I would suggest that you consider what he offers carefully, as you might learn something.

 

If he agrees to do some bias controlled evaluation of the pono and some other DAC's I'd be so inclined. 

 

Anyone that starts out by bashing the solutions coming from Japanese companies, and he certainly couched it in terms of being a cultural thing, I have some reservations about.

 

Sony ES has for decades now produced very good sounding equipment. Same with Denon/Marantz/Sansui. AKM is well regarded for their silicon...

[beerandmusic]

19 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

 

Subjective opinion of course but be a bit more specific, what do they do better that blows away the Pono?  I've owned the Ayre Codex in the past which is similar to the Pono and there is very little that "absolutely blows it away".

 

Well I MUST SAY it's nice to see more people come out that say there is "very little that absolutely blows it away". 

I usually get comments from others like there are clear differences and ridiculed for even such a suggestion, so your opinion that an $1800 AYRE doesn't blow away a $400 PONO is certainly a refreshing view that I truly appreciate, and hope to hear more of this type of opinion.

 

I think the major difficulty is in the use of "subjective words"...honestly,  i haven't heard any DACS that blows anything away between $300 dacs (i use $300 as an ifi as a starting point) and anything under $2k.  I have frequently commented that i haven't heard anything on what i refer to as "another level". 

 

As far as dacs that i have tried (well over a dozen), most sounded pretty much the same...the only 2 that i would say have more differrences than others are

1. Teac NT503 playing native DSD over DLNA (imho better for jazz)

2. Schiit multibit bifrost (seems more bassy and lively, imho better for rock)

 

besides those 2 exceptions (which i don't consider "another level", like i got with an amp grade), there has been zero worth writing home about.

[beerandmusic]

40 minutes ago, barrows said:

Folks, I suggest being very careful if you choose to criticize Charlie Hansen.  We are very lucky to have him giving advice here, as he knows more about high end audio design than virtually anyone else who ever posts on these forums.  All of us could learn a lot form his posts, so please treat him respectfully.

The fact that he is recommending a product (Pono Player) no longer in production, which he will have no benefit from the sale of, is evidence that he cares about sound quality, and helping people get the best sound they can, whatever their budget.

That's nice to hear.  I hope he will seriously research the LKS mh-da004 dual ess9038 mono mono dac.

The fact that he believes there isn't significant differences in DACS between $100 and $1500 is pretty much in line to my thinking, and a refreshing view, as usually when i make such a statement i am ridiculed, and he seems to even STRETCH my view..... so he should be prepared for some ridicule (grin)....t's nice to hear a well respected DAC engineer agrees with me.

 

I think there are a lot of people that would love to see a DAC under $1k that rivals $5K dacs of yesterday, and i believe we are getting very close to that realization.  I hope something can come from USA but i doubt it.  Many have suggested the components, quality, and design of the LKS would cost $4k if made in usa.

[Dr Tone]

26 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

Well I MUST SAY it's nice to see more people come out that say there is "very little that absolutely blows it away". 

I usually get comments from others like there are clear differences and ridiculed for even such a suggestion, so your opinion that an $1800 AYRE doesn't blow away a $400 PONO is certainly a refreshing view that I truly appreciate, and hope to hear more of this type of opinion.

 

Sorry I didn't make my self clear or I worded it badly.  I've never heard the Pono but I know the Ayre Codex is very similar to the Pono in sound signature and nothing I know of absolutely blows away the Ayre Codex.

 

Subjectively there are better no doubt, but not even my 3 times the price current DAC absolutely blows away the Codex.  The Mirus Pro is better in most ways but you are at a point of very diminishing returns.

[beerandmusic]

17 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

 

Sorry I didn't make my self clear or I worded it badly.  I've never heard the Pono but I know the Ayre Codex is very similar to the Pono in sound signature and nothing I know of absolutely blows away the Ayre Codex.

 

Subjectively there are better no doubt, but not even my 3 times the price current DAC absolutely blows away the Codex.  The Mirus Pro is better in most ways but you are at a point of very diminishing returns.

Read more  

Well, i probably appreciate this post more than the previous one (grin).  So you are saying you have a $5400 Mirus and it doesn't "blow away" a $1800 ayre,  and that you believe the $1800 ayre has similar sound as $300 pono?

 

I personally would say that upgrading my $500 NAD amp to a $2K Mcintosh amp CLEARLY, "BLEW IT AWAY".  Never have i heard such a dramatic improvement, and on a whole different level, and based on your input above, i will NEVER get a big jump again, as i will never budget a $5K DAC. 

 

That said, i will probably still upgrade my DAC to a $1500 dac at the right time, but not have any unreasonable expectations.

 

I think short of buying $10K+ used speakers, I am near as good as i get.

 

Law of diminishing returns sucks... (wink)

 

[beerandmusic]

10 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

IIRC, the Benchmark will also do "source media [that] is everything under the sun"

 

their ideas make sense, and at least one careful listener really likes their amp

 

for Redbook, try a Yggy

 

Oppo Sonica can also be tried and returned

 

 

I won't consider the Yggy for 2 reasons...no native dsd support and restocking fee, and i heard the same thing about the bifrost when it came out...yea, greatest dac ever....sure to disappoint, and without a free trial, and don't believe it will take me to the "next level" over what i can get with native DSD over DLNA with an NT503.

 

I probably would have tried the sonica but the reviews aren't so great.  Still may be worth a try...i love all the features including analog and network inputs...can be used as preamp....maybe oppo sonica v2 will incorporate some of the DIY mods that people are making to them.

 

I do have high hopes for the LKS design.

[Dr Tone]

35 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

Well, i probably appreciate this post more than the previous one (grin).  So you are saying you have a $5400 Mirus and it doesn't "blow away" a $1800 ayre,  and that you believe the $1800 ayre has similar sound as $300 pono?

 

I personally would say that upgrading my $500 NAD amp to a $2K Mcintosh amp CLEARLY, "BLEW IT AWAY".  Never have i heard such a dramatic improvement, and on a whole different level, and based on your input above, i will NEVER get a big jump again, as i will never budget a $5K DAC. 

 

That said, i will probably still upgrade my DAC to a $1500 dac at the right time, but not have any unreasonable expectations.

 

I think short of buying $10K+ used speakers, I am near as good as i get.

 

Law of diminishing returns sucks... (wink)

 

 

I think you have the right assessment of your situation.  I've long been past the point of any component blowing away another component in my system.  Now it's just tweaking to get a good match.

[Dr Tone]

Have you considered Chord?  It's a brand new product but maybe a used Hugo 2?