HOW DOES A PERFECT DAC ANALOG SIGNAL LOOK DIFFERENT THAN A CHEAP DAC

[beerandmusic]

8 minutes ago, barrows said:

 

Also, as an American, I prefer to support American manufacturing when possible, but I understand the desire for seeking out products with better perceived value.

 

+1 also....i would prefer to buy USA (although many usa have manufactured overseas anyway).  I would pay more for same quality in usa, but at maybe only a 20% clip...many suggest the LKS would sell for $4K if made in usa.

 

[beerandmusic]

11 minutes ago, barrows said:

 

I have no experience with LKS, never heard of them, and there is not enough technical information given for me to have an opinion on that basis either. 

Threads in other forums suggest it is made of quality components (to me i have no idea)...i do like the concept of 2 separate chips in parallel for mono mono equivalent to using 32 ES9028 chips for better separation.

 

Below description is probably written by someone from china, but it does state some of the details.

 

Description

ES9038pro is ESS's flagship DAC audio decoder chip, is currently able to see the highest performance index DAC chip, according to the practice of Mu, the use of two ES9038pro, respectively, work in the mono MONO mode, making two DAC chip Individually deal with the left and right channel audio content and do not interfere with each other, greatly enhance the DAC's performance and auditory effects. Mono MONO mode The official indicator is the dynamic range of 140dBA, which is 3dB higher than 137dBA when working with a single two-channel channel. The official indicator is for reference only, but it is easy to see that the monaural MONO Mode, the signal output current of the DAC is twice as high as that of the two-channel mode, and the darkness of the sound background, the density of the sound, the degree of separation, the motion, the knot, etc. can be made significant Of the promotion.

 

Have enough experience enthusiasts know, DAC chip is only a machine foundation, the most critical is the external circuit design and adjustment, in order to achieve the use of ES9038pro and get the best sound replay effect, L.K.S Audio uncompromising around Circuit design, such as the use of two high-quality transformer to achieve six sets of AC power supply, a total of 13 groups of low-noise regulator circuit (a lot of key parts of the use of two-level regulator approach), the second level regulator using the industry to high performance Power supply chip to provide a sufficient current margin, the reaction of fast, ultra-low noise power.

 

At the same time, in order to deal with ES9038pro unique MONO mode of large current output (more than 100mA of signal current), specially designed IV conversion circuit, this part of the circuit for the pure sub-design, the substrate is the current low noise indicators Audio transistor, twin effect transistor, audio power tube, etc., the correction capacitor is also uncompromising use of silver mica capacitors, the purpose is to get the most accurate, natural voice to reproduce. This circuit mode is the traditional integrated op amp output (such as OPA627, AD797, LME49990, OPA1612, etc.) can not match.

 

 

L.K.S Audio in the most critical place to carry out the following design:

 

1. USB part, Mu has always adhere to the use of Italy Amanero's USB program, which is the industry's leading USB playback program, recognized that the program sound better than the popular xmos, and L.K.S Audio in the Italian original on the basis of improvement, based Board usb module will use six groups of ultra-low noise LDO for sub-power supply (and the original is two LDO). In addition, in the usb upgrade version, Mu sound using two Crystek ultra-low noise clock to upgrade, and provides a decoder power transformer self-powered ultra-low noise power supply module to usb module power supply, sound enhancement effect , Very suitable for the computer as a player to use the enthusiasts. And thus one can save the cost of purchasing an external digital player.

 

2. The key master clock position, the same uncompromising, uses the Crystek CCHD-575 femtosecond clock to provide a very low jitter (82fS @ 100MHz) clock supply for the ES9038pro. Experienced burning friends know that digital audio recovery, the clock is the soul of the system, the importance of the clock can be seen. And in order to pure the clock signal, L.K.S Audio from the source - power grab, regardless of the cost of using a separate set of AC power, after two ultra-low noise regulator after the supply of this clock alone, greatly enhance the sound The stability of the background, the stability of the sound imaging.

 

3. L.K.S Audio for the left and right channels were working on the two ES9038pro DAC chip design of the independent power supply, making the left and right channel power crosstalk as low as possible to a very low state, which is brought about by the excellent sound separation Degree, very accurate sound imaging stability.

 

4. L.K.S Audio three years ago to proceed with the development of discrete circuits used to replace the traditional op amp chip, because the traditional op amp chip is subject to the chip size and SOC integrated circuit of some innate factors, the composition of the internal circuit of the monomer parts Performance is very limited, can withstand the heat power is very low, basically all of the integrated operational amplifier chip quiescent current is in a very low state (less than 10mA), even if the enthusiast of the senior opa627 gold seal version is the case, Processing ES9018 / 28/38 more and more audio output current (ES9018 / 28 in the mono mode output current is about 30mA or more, while the ES9038 is more than 100mA), so the overall quality of performance can not meet the demanding needs of enthusiasts The The output of the sub-output circuit, the use of twin JFET field effect transistor input, the last pole 3A power tube output, you can easily meet the ES9038pro high current output processing, and after three years of accumulated over 100 circuit parameters tuning, sound Performance is extremely natural, Chiang Kai-shek, high and low frequency of the ductility is excellent.

 

5. With a high standard of analog output circuit,  In order to meet the best performance of this circuit, in particular the design of the same high-grade A (A) power circuit, constant current source SHUNT circuit mode design, ON Semiconductor high power Adjust the tube, and use Jensen new electrolysis, with the appropriate output capacitor and decoupling capacitor, natural sound, transparent, very balanced and very musical appeal.

 

6. High-grade system inside, the impact of each little detail can not be ignored, using Furukawa FI03 gold-plated power outlet, Cardas rhodium-plated RCA audio output, Neutirk balanced output, etc., these components for high-calorie players That is the most familiar. It is precisely the focus of these key parts in order to create a good sound system.  for the customer standard Swiss Schute frozen version of the fuse, the sound performance of fine, moist, quiet and good, more obvious can be compared to the general fuse is rough, grainy.

 

 

MH-DA004 DAC All ports support DSD input (coaxial, fiber, BNC, AES / EBU for DoP input, USB, I2S support DoP, DSD native source input)

All online decoders are fully balanced analog circuit designs. Friends do not have to ask whether it is really balanced question.

The machine uses the Italian Amanero USB module, supports PCM and DSD decoding in USB access mode, PCM supports 44.1K ~ 384K various rate, DSD support DSD64, DSD128, DSD256, DSD512 (Windows).

Windows system support 32/64 bit XP / Vista / win7 / win8 / win10, need to install a proprietary driver (support KS / Wasapi / WDM / ASIO).

Mac OS 10.6+ and Linux UAC2 are not driven.

Amanero USB DSD driver and use the settings method download (please contact us)

 

 

 

Specifications

Two-chip ES9038pro decoding method.

Two high-quality toroidal transformers, a total of 13 groups of linear power supply.

Built-in specially designed Italian Amanero USB module, original license license. USB module added to isolate the chip, you can isolate the computer to the audio system interference signal.

Supports USB, I2S / DSD single-ended signal (RJ45), I2S / DSD balanced signal (HDMI), oaxial, BNC, AES / EBU balance, Optical total seven-way source input, all ports support DSD input.

Analog audio output port includes standard RCA single-ended output and XLR balanced output pair.

Display with VFD display, the display exceptionally outstanding.

 Use physical key operation.

Support 0dB ~ -127dB digital volume adjustment, 0.5dB level. But also has a remote key to skip the volume adjustment function.

Support a variety of digital filter mode settings (see user manual). Can be arbitrarily selected, different filter mode, the digital filter attenuation characteristics are different.

Supports decoding of internal digital phase-locked loop bandwidth settings (see user's manual for details).

Support Deemphasis to increase or turn off.

The display has 4 levels of brightness adjustable. Adjusted by remote control.

Remote start, standby function.

Most of the settings with memory function, turn off the opportunity to automatically save the settings, restart the settings.

Dynamic range> 135dB

Distortion <0.0002%

Stereo resolution> 120dB

RCA unbalanced port output amplitude 2Vrms, XLR balanced port output amplitude 5Vrms.

Machine size 430 * 320 * 90mm

Machine weight 7.0kg

 

 

Upgrade USB Edition

Upgrade to improve the two affect the sound of the key position,power and clock,soak up the sound using two expensive Crystek CCHD - 957 ultralow active clock time base jitter,and separately for USB work a low noise design of linear power supply module,the switching power supply module directly by the decoder transformer of communication power supply,can greatly optimize the USB power supply quality,upgrade version of the voice had the characteristics of high-grade CDT is same,acoustic field is open,the sound fresh moist,full, connect fully,on both ends of the extension, sound density is wonderful,delicate and exquisite,balance and nature.Not upgrade is relatively level,high frequency slightly coarse,thrust forward,simple sense is insufficient,low frequency masculine but administrative levels feeling.

[Ralf11]

if @beerandmusic cannot hear a difference with an expensive DAC, he simply needs to add more confirmation bias to his system

[beerandmusic]

2 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

if @beerandmusic cannot hear a difference with an expensive DAC, he simply needs to add more confirmation bias to his system

i have said many times that i can hear a difference...so please don't misquote me and go troll someone else.

[Ralf11]

if @beerandmusic cannot hear a significant difference with an expensive DAC, he simply needs to add more confirmation bias to his system

 

and.. if you had answered my question yesterday then maybe some specific help could be provided, or at least insight

[barrows]

On the LHK description.  While the translation is clearly lacking, there are some things here i would comment on.  This DAC appears to have a tube buffer as the final output stage, hmmm?  Not the best position for tubes in my experience, this may be why there is no spec for output impedance?  There is no mention of galvanic isolation of the USB input, the Amanero USB interface does not incorporate galvanic isolation itself, it would have to be added after the board.  There is not enough detail here for me to have any further comment.  The only other advice I would give is to always listen to new components in your own system before committing to them, as how it sounds to you, in your system is ultimately all that really matters.

[gmgraves]

20 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

 

This is more in line what i was thinking about....my curiosity is how much different will a $5K dac measure than a $1500 Dac (i use $1500 arbitrarily because that is the price of a current contender I am contemplating...MH-DA004).  Since I don't really consider myself an audiophile, because I can't say one DAC sounds better than the other in the same way i can say a better amp makes a huge difference....my ears must not be that good....so I am going with wanting a DAC that has features I want and is objectively on par or better..   I can hear subtle differences, but nothing i consider worth paying more for.  I have good "space" and "depth" with a good amp, and it wasn't until i got a good amp until i recognized that, but swapping out dacs has made little difference.

 

Like other audiophile products, in DACs, higher cost does not necessarily equal better performance.

[Ralf11]

it's very good advice to "always listen to new components in your own system before committing to them"

 

but it can only be done with a willing dealer or a mail order return priv. - not sure if that's the case with the LHS unit...

[barrows]

2 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

it's very good advice to "always listen to new components in your own system before committing to them"

 

but it can only be done with a willing dealer or a mail order return priv. - not sure if that's the case with the LHS unit...

Right, so that may be a reason to not consider it, unless you are willing to resell at a loss if it does not work out.

[beerandmusic]

37 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

if @beerandmusic cannot hear a significant difference with an expensive DAC, he simply needs to add more confirmation bias to his system

 

and.. if you had answered my question yesterday then maybe some specific help could be provided, or at least insight

i looked back through the thread, and i only saw one post from you and i did respond.

 

[beerandmusic]

29 minutes ago, barrows said:

Right, so that may be a reason to not consider it, unless you are willing to resell at a loss if it does not work out.

i do both... also buy used many times and resell for profit too....and agree...that is one reason (the main reason i won't buy an yggi, because you have to pay restocking fee)...otherwise i would have tried it by now...

[beerandmusic]

42 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 

Like other audiophile products, in DACs, higher cost does not necessarily equal better performance.

agreed...i should have stated differently...i just meant how much different is the waveform from a quality to a cheap dac...but as barrows pointed out there is much in an analog output that can't be measured...which ultimately answered the question to this thread....i honestly thought the waveform could be measured and compared....apparently from ESS there is differences in analog signal that can't be measured except by the hair in our ears, that very few people can discern the differences, but also suggested that current technology (at least at the chip level, not dac level), has been updated where double blind tests can no longer discern as easily.

[beerandmusic]

I am curious as to who's DAC ESS uses for their listening panels, where double blind tests could not tell the difference at the chip level.

[beerandmusic]

1 hour ago, barrows said:

On the LHK description.  While the translation is clearly lacking, there are some things here i would comment on.  This DAC appears to have a tube buffer as the final output stage, hmmm?  Not the best position for tubes in my experience, this may be why there is no spec for output impedance?  There is no mention of galvanic isolation of the USB input, the Amanero USB interface does not incorporate galvanic isolation itself, it would have to be added after the board.  There is not enough detail here for me to have any further comment.  The only other advice I would give is to always listen to new components in your own system before committing to them, as how it sounds to you, in your system is ultimately all that really matters.

i typically wait until i buy on used market and then resell..that is how i do my testing 90% of the time....but i like to educate myself as to which dacs to consider for purchase.  Yes, i know the amanero usb interface and this dac does not have galvanic isolation..that is one feature i stated i will be looking for in future versions...i am sure it is just a matter of time before most dacs incorporate some type of usb isolation that is on par for dacs over $500 at least....I won't buy another dac until one does have that feature or until there is a general concensus that some other usb isolation is just as good and is included in the dac itself without having to buy a "usb toy".

[barrows]

39 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

I am curious as to who's DAC ESS uses for their listening panels, where double blind tests could not tell the difference at the chip level.

I suspect that would have been via their evaluation model, not anyone else's.  They're accomplished engineers totally capable of building their own complete DAC, hence the existence of Resonessence Audio.

[Dr Tone]

21 minutes ago, barrows said:

I suspect that would have been via their evaluation model, not anyone else's.  They're accomplished engineers totally capable of building their own complete DAC, hence the existence of Resonessence Audio.

 

Resonessence Labs.

 

Wasn't it Mark who said the ESS9028PRO was the better chip for 2 channel audio in an interview at one time.  I think it was related to the additional cooling and more complex implementation needed with the ESS9038PRO.  I could be wrong though.

[beerandmusic]

19 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

 

Resonessence Labs.

 

Wasn't it Mark who said the ESS9028PRO was the better chip for 2 channel audio in an interview at one time.  I think it was related to the additional cooling and more complex implementation needed with the ESS9038PRO.  I could be wrong though.

that may be partially the reason that LKS uses 2 ES9038 chips (one for each channel).

 

also many big names using es9038...

an editors choice award for a $9K dac...

http://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/1059-ayre-acoustics-qx5-twenty-digital-to-analog-converter

Ayre Acoustics Adopts ESS SABRE ES9038PRO DAC on New QX-5 Twenty Digital Hub

May 3 2016, 04:00

ESS Technology announced that its flagship SABRE ES9038PRO Digital to Analog Converter (DAC) will be featured in the Ayre Acoustics QX-5 Twenty digital hub being introduced at the Munich High End show. This new cutting edge digital hub leverages the unmatched performance and sound quality of the ES9038PRO to extend Ayre’s decades-long record of groundbreaking innovation in audio systems design.

 

=============

“ESS always improves on previous products and the ESS SABRE ES9038PRO breaks all the old benchmarks – both qualitatively and quantitatively. It has unmatched technical specifications and more importantly the sound is spectacular,” says Dan Christman, Chief Marketing Officer of ESS Technology. “It was natural for us to collaborate with Ayre, a company revered by both audiophiles and musicians for superb audio quality. The Ayre QX-5 Twenty extends the audiophile excellence that ESS and Ayre have built together over the past decade.

================

[beerandmusic]

43 minutes ago, barrows said:

I suspect that would have been via their evaluation model, not anyone else's.  They're accomplished engineers totally capable of building their own complete DAC, hence the existence of Resonessence Audio.

yet, they had difficulty to find an audiophile in their group that could discern differences outside of measurements....(their words).

I don't doubt they can build their own, but you would think they would want to use a manufacturer that "specializes" in dacs not chips...jmo..but you are probably right.

[beerandmusic]

26 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

 

Resonessence Labs.

 

Wasn't it Mark who said the ESS9028PRO was the better chip for 2 channel audio in an interview at one time.  I think it was related to the additional cooling and more complex implementation needed with the ESS9038PRO.  I could be wrong though.

OK, i didn't catch that on barrows posting...so Reconessence Labs is DAC manufacturer under their umbrella?

[esldude]

5 hours ago, barrows said:

Els, please go back and read your previous post, you made no distinctions there.  But, hahaha, it appears that you may be a lower awareness type human, As you presuppose there is some kind of competition here?  Just pushing your buttons a bit, no real need to name call, sorry.

Anyway, indeed I can easily hear differences between DACs, but I do agree that those differences can be minute, in comparisons to the differences between say, speakers (or microphones on the other side of the recording chain).  Even the very best speakers are highly compromised devices.

In fact, right now I am listen testing a handful of different USB cables for use in Sonore's demo system at RMAF.  This experience reinforces for me the simple fact that even with USB cables there are easily noticeable differences in sonic performance, anyone who could not hear these things is not a discerning listener at all.  This is a long process as I will only compare two at a time (of course), and although the differences are (often) easy to hear, determining which cable is better is much more difficult.

Sorry to digress guys... and no, we do not need to get into (another) cable debate here!

No competition here.  You have let everyone know about low class behaviour plus a lack of reading comprehension on your part.  You definitively win on those fronts. I'll conjecture your USB cable acumen is of equally high quality. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

bring this back to a discussion others want to read. This isn't the place to bitch back and forth. 

[barrows]

12 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

OK, i didn't catch that on barrows posting...so Reconessence Labs is DAC manufacturer under their umbrella?

No, separate company started by ESS honcho Mark Mallinson, and develops DACs in concert with ESS engineers.

[beerandmusic]

38 minutes ago, barrows said:

No, separate company started by ESS honcho Mark Mallinson, and develops DACs in concert with ESS engineers.

and from excerpt above, it is possible they had multiple listening panels with other DAC manufacturers as well....here they infer that they have had a "working level" with AYRE..

 

The Ayre QX-5 Twenty extends the audiophile excellence that ESS and Ayre have built together over the past decade.

[The Computer Audiophile]

You can always ask @Charles Hansen about Ayre related items.

[esimms86]

@beerandmusic have you had a chance to listen to the Auralic Vega DAC in your system? I previously owned one and thoroughly enjoyed it. It sounded particularly great with DSD. In case you're wondering, I sold it when I upgraded the DACs in my systems(specifically, the Phasure NOS1a, an R2R DAC, and the Chord Dave, an FPGA design). The Vega, at $3200 USD new, should easily fall within your stated price range if purchased used(especially when the Vega2 hits the market).