HOW DOES A PERFECT DAC ANALOG SIGNAL LOOK DIFFERENT THAN A CHEAP DAC

[Charles Hansen]

Hi Mansr,

 

To follow up, I forgot to state what I take for granted - there is no amazing-sounding "true high-end" products that come from any major corporation, anywhere in the world. It's impossible to get amazing performance from something designed by a committee. Look at all the opinions on a place like this forum. Can you imagine taking 10 of the most knowledgeable people here, throwing them in a room, giving them $1 million and telling them to design a DAC?

 

It would be a disaster. You might be convinced that it has to measure well in specific tests. Beer might think it has to have the very latest DAC chip. Barrows and other would say that the power supply and analog circuit are the most important things. I would be surprised if the group (definitely not working as a team!) would even finish a design.let alone a good sounding one.

 

Instead the best sounding equipment comes from one or two people working as passionately on their design as Van Gogh did on his paintings. Many do it strictly be engineering knowledge, others do it largely on the basis of listening tests. The very best products are made by people who combine both approaches.

 

A good analogy here is with sports or musicians. There are two kinds of "star" players - one is unbelievably naturally talented. They just seem to be born with a gift that puts them a level ahead of everybody else. The other type of star is a player that is of good, yet not amazing natural talent. But he will practice more and harder than anybody else. After 10 years of practicing for many, many hours a day, they become stars. Then once in a generation there will be a "superstar" - someone who has an incredible natural gift and they work harder at their craft than anybody else.

 

That's when you end up with a Beethoven, The Beatles, or a Jimi Hendrix. Or a Michael Jordan or a Bernard Hinault or an Eddy Merckx. The culture in Japan does not encourage those gifted designers to start their own companies and practice their craft and become the "superstars" of audio design.

 

Hope that helps,

Charles Hansen

[kumakuma]

14 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Not defending anything here, but just thought about substituting Samoan for Japanese. I've never seen a single audio component from a Samoan. Would that make me racists if I said that stuff about Samoans?

 

Ok, carry on.

 

 

[beerandmusic]

6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Not defending anything here, but just thought about substituting Samoan for Japanese. I've never seen a single audio component from a Samoan. Would that make me racists if I said that stuff about Samoans?

 

Ok, carry on.

As I was reading Mr. Hansen's statement, i thought his generalizations were a little hard to swallow but never thought they were racist..but re-reading the quote (out of context), and if I was Japanese (even if not, but especially if so), I certainly see where it could be portrayed as racist, taken out of context.  But when he clarified (and again clarified), i see and understand where he is coming from, and find it logical.  Even finding it logical in the broad context, it's still a little difficult to swallow.  I also like a lot of Sony products, especially their ES series stuff.  Also keep in mind his use of the word "amazing" and that he states "in his opinion".  I don't think anything (at least that i have heard) is "amazing" in comparison to McIntosh amps.

 

I would suggest both for the offender and the offended...careful when using generalizations,  try to think the best of people, and when quoting, use actual quotes and in full context.  I certainly wouldn't call someone racist without personally knowing the person.

[Charles Hansen]

20 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

I think the question has been answered, these are my take-aways:

 

1. The analog output signal will look very close to the same on any DAC,

2. That SQ is subjective.

3. not even the most expensive test equipment is capable of measuring what our ears are capable of.

4. No one can say without authority or debate that a $400 Dac doesn't sound as good as a $2000 DAC.

5. Reverse engineering and cheap labor costs make it difficult for companies to compete.

6. The DAC market isn't as big as I thought, where companies are able to discount their profit margins for volume sales.

7.  Keep my eyes on the LKS MH-DA004 and the Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital

8. Consider trying a DAC outside of my budget just to see if the concept of a "ultimate dac" is even worth chasing.

 

 

 

Hi Beer,

 

Based on this post, I would say that this thread has been a success. I think that you have learned a lot about a lot of things that will help you on your quest for better sound. And that is the purpose of these forums - to share knowledge and information.

 

The only thing I would disagree from your list would be to exclude the LKS. I think in the very best case you will get a DAC with acceptable sound quality and mediocre construction. In the very worst case you will end up with an unreliable product, with little to no warranty support and a manufacturer with poor English (although infinitely better than my Chinese!) that will cost you $300 round-trip shipping any time you have a problem.

 

The Pro-ject is a completely different ball game. It is made using the low labor costs of eastern Europe, but designed by known good designers, and backed by a very large company with excellent distribution world-wide.

 

Have fun on your quest,

Charles Hansen

[beerandmusic]

13 minutes ago, Charles Hansen said:

It would be a disaster. You might be convinced that it has to measure well in specific tests. Beer might think it has to have the very latest DAC chip. Barrows and other would say that the power supply and analog circuit are the most important things. I would be surprised if the group (definitely not working as a team!) would even finish a design.let alone a good sounding one.

 

Hope that helps,

Charles Hansen

 

Actually it has to utilize the latest "bug-free proven" chips, (minimally one chip per channel), have galvanic isolation, digital and analog inputs, a phono input, the lowest noise, play highest resolution native dsd through all inputs, remote volume control, made in usa, and here's the big one:

over 50% concensus that it sounds great and is the best bang for the buck, and cost less than $1k. (wink).

[beerandmusic]

14 minutes ago, Charles Hansen said:

 

Hi Beer,

 

Based on this post, I would say that this thread has been a success. I think that you have learned a lot about a lot of things that will help you on your quest for better sound. And that is the purpose of these forums - to share knowledge and information.

 

The only thing I would disagree from your list would be to exclude the LKS. I think in the very best case you will get a DAC with acceptable sound quality and mediocre construction. In the very worst case you will end up with an unreliable product, with little to no warranty support and a manufacturer with poor English (although infinitely better than my Chinese!) that will cost you $300 round-trip shipping any time you have a problem.

 

The Pro-ject is a completely different ball game. It is made using the low labor costs of eastern Europe, but designed by known good designers, and backed by a very large company with excellent distribution world-wide.

 

Have fun on your quest,

Charles Hansen

I didn't say buy the LKS, i said keep my eye on it.  I am thinking more along the design of it and the reviews of it......  I do still stand by my prediction that a similar design (e.g. parallel es9038 dual mono mode, with similar circuitry, but with added galvanic isolation) for under $1K is on the horizon...hopefully by a us company...even before i heard of the pro-ject that someone else pointed it out to me in this thread, shares some of the same design.  I am betting we will see many utilizing dual mono es9038 in near future to pick from.  The pro-ject does look like it is made with cheap parts though in comparison....e.g. I don't see any torroidal transformers....not sure what they are for, but am guessing they are the more expensive parts.

 

[mansr]

4 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

I certainly wouldn't call someone racist without personally knowing the person.

I didn't call Charles a racist. I said some of his sweeping statements about various nationalities, especially Japanese, were. There is a difference. It is plausible that he didn't intend it that way, but it was still a stupid thing to say.

[beerandmusic]

8 minutes ago, mansr said:

I didn't call Charles a racist. I said some of his sweeping statements about various nationalities, especially Japanese, were. There is a difference. It is plausible that he didn't intend it that way, but it was still a stupid thing to say.

good!  You see how easy it is to misquote someone (wink).  I was fairly certain he didn't say the pono was better than all dacs under the $2300 yggi...yet someone was offended because he was misquoted.

 

Ok so you didn't say Mr. Hansen is a racist, and Mr. Hansen didn't say the pono was better than all dacs under the $2300 yggi....we can move on past both of those misquotes.

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

He said the Japanese are incapable of making a good product without foreign leadership. How is that not racist?

 

This is where you quote out of context, don't read correctly and then draw unreasonable, and frankly offensive conclusions. 

 

He he said that Japanese companies have never been able to make amazing sounding equipment.

 

He never said that the Japanese are incapable of making such equipment.

 

I see what he said as more  of a reflection on the very large Japanese conglomerates. 

 

Your conclusions are offensive. To use the offensive analogy (I hesitate but ...) I might say that "Israeli companies have never made amazing speakers" (e.g. Morel) which is entirely different that "Jews are incapable of designing amazing speakers" 

[Speed Racer]

34 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

This is where you quote out of context, don't read correctly and then draw unreasonable, and frankly offensive conclusions. 

 

He he said that Japanese companies have never been able to make amazing sounding equipment.

 

He never said that the Japanese are incapable of making such equipment.

 

I see what he said as more  of a reflection on the very large Japanese conglomerates. 

 

Your conclusions are offensive. To use the offensive analogy (I hesitate but ...) I might say that "Israeli companies have never made amazing speakers" (e.g. Morel) which is entirely different that "Jews are incapable of designing amazing speakers" 

 

Except that he says the only time they ever made good stuff is when they brought in non-Japanese.....

[jabbr]

4 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Except that he says the only time they ever made good stuff is when they brought in non-Japanese.....

Yeah I understand -- and the conglomerates have brought in non-Japanese for these reasons e.g. Sony. I'd say it differently because Japanese technologies had some amazing technologies way back e.g. VFETs and some very good products but these didn't translate into technical superiority. 

 

But it there is a huge difference between stating something that may be historically factual e.g. "As of the 1960s, Japanese cameras have never been of the same quality as German" vs saying that the Japanese are incapable of making a good camera.

[Speed Racer]

2 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Yeah I understand -- and the conglomerates have brought in non-Japanese for these reasons e.g. Sony. I'd say it differently because Japanese technologies had some amazing technologies way back e.g. VFETs and some very good products but these didn't translate into technical superiority. 

 

But it there is a huge difference between stating something that may be historically factual e.g. "As of the 1960s, Japanese cameras have never been of the same quality as German" vs saying that the Japanese are incapable of making a good camera.

 

You are rationalizing.....

[beerandmusic]

17 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

You are rationalizing.....

I don't always agree with the manner that Mr. Hansen generalizes, but I didn't have the same take-away that you did.  I just think it is important when you quote someone to quote them accurately and in context and let the reader make their own decisions, especially when you criticize someone for saying something.  I am not saying you were right or wrong in your interpretation, but agree with JABBR that they are not the same. 

 

Perhaps if you state something as a question to get clarification of one's statements and you quote them accurately, their response may not have been offensive to you.

 

Again, i do believe that Mr. Hansen's generalizations could be tamed a bit, but hey' who is perfect.  I didn't read into it as a racist statement, but I could perceive how someone may, but he has come back twice to try to clarify.

 

 

[Ralf11]

The comments are offensive and would get anyone working for a "large corporation," in government, or at a university fired or sanctioned.  They seem implicitly racist, in context, despite the attempts to muddy the waters post-hoc.

[pkane2001]

30 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

Again, i do believe that Mr. Hansen's generalizations could be tamed a bit, but hey' who is perfect.  I didn't read into it as a racist statement, but I could perceive how someone may, but he has come back twice to try to clarify.

 

Charles stated his opinion. While I agree with some of what he said, I don't agree with everything, especially the sweeping generalizations. I primarily took issue with barrows and a few others making the point that it's somehow inappropriate to disagree or to question Charles because of his success in audio business. That's completely wrong-headed. Success and even experience do not guarantee absolute knowledge or complete understanding. Argument by authority does not work with me, sorry.

 

On the subject of Chinese DACs, I currently have about 5 US-made DACs, 3 German-made ones, and two Chinese. Prices range from $39 to $3000. The $800 Chinese DAC is one of the best sounding ones in my stable. I would try to compare it to Pono, but I'm afraid somebody just outbid me on eBay for a used one. I was happy to test it, even if just to get a better reading on what I think of Charles' designs and opinions

 

[fas42]

3 hours ago, mansr said:

We could just stop talking about Charles and resume talking about DACs.

 

Indeed ...

 

The takeaway from all the experiments and fiddling I've done over the years is that the quality and potential of a particular component in an audio system is far, far less important than the degree of effort that goes into 'debugging' the entire system, and refining the key aspects - I have heard far too many ultra-expensive combos of kit over the years that have sounded a disasterous mess, to have any other opinion.

 

I have had great satisfaction in prodding bits of gear that many people would have thought ready for the rubbish bin into producing highly enjoyable audio, far superior to the normal standard in key areas - a "proof of concept" exercise that is very rewarding.

[jabbr]

37 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

The comments are offensive and would get anyone working for a "large corporation," in government, or at a university fired or sanctioned.  They seem implicitly racist, in context, despite the attempts to muddy the waters post-hoc.

How about this article: 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/how-eight-conglomerates-dominate-japanese-industry-180960356/

 

Is it racist? Was TPP racist then?

[beerandmusic]

35 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Charles stated his opinion. While I agree with some of what he said, I don't agree with everything, especially the sweeping generalizations. I primarily took issue with barrows and a few others making the point that it's somehow inappropriate to disagree or to question Charles because of his success in audio business. That's completely wrong-headed. Success and even experience do not guarantee absolute knowledge or complete understanding. Argument by authority does not work with me, sorry.

 

On the subject of Chinese DACs, I currently have about 5 US-made DACs, 3 German-made ones, and two Chinese. Prices range from $39 to $3000. The $800 Chinese DAC is one of the best sounding ones in my stable. I would try to compare it to Pono, but I'm afraid somebody just outbid me on eBay for a used one. I was happy to test it, even if just to get a better reading on what I think of Charles' designs and opinions

 

what is your $3000 dac?  Is it $3000 on today's market or when you bought it?

I am mostly curious if there is any DAC that someone suggests is on a "whole new level"? 

I probably would have tried the yggi, but I heard the same thing about the bifrost when it came out and was underwhelmed.

 

[barrows]

39 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Charles stated his opinion. While I agree with some of what he said, I don't agree with everything, especially the sweeping generalizations. I primarily took issue with barrows and a few others making the point that it's somehow inappropriate to disagree or to question Charles because of his success in audio business

I never suggested any such thing, in fact I specifically stated that is OK to disagree, just that such disagreement should be stated respectfully.

[barrows]

41 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Success and even experience do not guarantee absolute knowledge or complete understanding

No one suggested absolute knowledge.  I suggested that Mr. Hansen has more knowledge/experience developing and bringing to market innovative audio products than the posters challenging his viewpoints.  I stand by that.

[pkane2001]

2 minutes ago, barrows said:

No one suggested absolute knowledge.  I suggested that Mr. Hansen has more knowledge/experience developing and bringing to market innovative audio products than the posters challenging his viewpoints.  I stand by that.

 

Fair enough.

 

[Speed Racer]

4 minutes ago, barrows said:

No one suggested absolute knowledge.  I suggested that Mr. Hansen has more knowledge/experience developing and bringing to market innovative audio products than the posters challenging his viewpoints.  I stand by that.

 

And? You basically were telling everyone that disagreed with Mr. Hansen that they had no business disagreeing with Mr. Hansen. That's BS!

[pkane2001]

8 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

what is your $3000 dac?  Is it $3000 on today's market or when you bought it?

I am mostly curious if there is any DAC that someone suggests is on a "whole new level"? 

I probably would have tried the yggi, but I heard the same thing about the bifrost when it came out and was underwhelmed.

 

It was $3k when it was made about 10 years ago. SOTA at the time  and was my reference DAC until recently. Has not been in my system since I started using the Gustard Pro.

 

[Charles Hansen]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

He said the Japanese are incapable of making a good product without foreign leadership. How is that not racist?

 

Hi Mansr,

 

What I didn't state was that by combining the foreign leadership with what I call the Japanese "Samurai" mentality led to some of the greatest audio products ever. Let's take a look at what TAD did.

 

During the '50s and '60s, Bart Locanthi worked at JBL. He was a brilliant polymath and not only designed some of their most famous drivers (eg, the 375 2" midrange compression driver), but also oversaw almost all of their classic complete loudpeakers. If that weren't enough, he designed the JBL SA600, the world's first production amplifier with a fully complementary output stage (1966). He was the VP of Engineering until the original generation of founders either died off or retired. There was no succession plan and JBL was sold to conglomerate after conglomerate, starting with Singer (the sewing machine company), then Beatrice (the food company famous for its yogurt!), and finally Harman International (which sold just this year to Samsung).

 

After one of these corporate acquisitions, the new accountant came in to "take a look" at  what they had bought. Around noon this guy strolls in with a short-sleeved shirt. It was Bart Locanthi, who would spend his mornings working from home so that he could come up with new ideas without the distractions of putting out some fire on the production line or any of the other things that happen in manufacturing.

 

In those days, executives were expected to wear suits and ties, but this was southern California - not NYC - and many didn't pay much attention to these "fashion rules" - especially brilliant men like Albert Einstein and Bart Locanthi. The bean-counter asks Locanthi who he is and he replies "Bart Locanthi". The bean-counter then asks his position and Bart replies "VP of Engineering". The bean-counter asks him how much he is paid, and Bart tells him. The bean-counter decides on the spot that anybody making that much money should not be walking around in a short-sleeved shirt, and sure as hell shouldn't be coming to work at noon. So he fires him on the spot.

 

The guys at Pioneer are not dummies. Ever since they had been introduced, the JBL speakers had been the favorites of all true high-end Japanese audiophiles. Part of it was the sound and part of it was the "all-out, over-the-top" approach to quality. Things like 3" voice coils and giant Alnico V magnets with custom cast iron return paths (yokes). Precisely machined phase plugs for the compression drivers and crossover boxes in die-cast metal enclosures with the finest components and switches.

 

When they found out that Bart Locanthi was looking for a job, they immediately hired him. TAD was fairly new, but it was no accident that "Technical Audio Devices" was shortened down to a three-letter abbreviation, just as "James Bartholomew Lansing" was shortened to a three-letter abbreviation - "JBL". TAD wanted to emulate JBL, and now they had the guy to do it. They introduced a full line of compression drivers, horns, crossovers, and cone woofers that at first glance looked like copies of JBL's product line-up.

 

But there was a difference - the Japanese "Samurai" attitude. If there was a way to make it better, the Samurai mindset was to do it - no matter how much it cost. So they asked Locanthi how they could improve on the JBL products. He was pretty hard pressed, because JBL had been refining their designs for decades. But he told them that beryllium would be better than aluminum, but ridiculously hard to make.

 

No problem said the Japanese engineers. We have been working with vapor deposition to make complex shapes in beryllium. This is an insanely expensive way to make something. You start with a copper rod of the required diameter (over 4"). Then you machine the shape you want (a dome in this case). Then you put the copper slug into a large vacuum chamber along with a crucible to heat the beryllium to where it liquifies and emits vapor. The hot beryllium vapor condenses on the cool copper slug (often aided by electrical charges) and slowly builds up, atom-by-atom to the desired thickness (a few thousandths of an inch). Then you bathe the copper in nitric acid to dissolve it, leaving only the beryllium dome behind. You can maybe make a half-dozen domes at a time and each run takes several days. They still make these drivers, and the big one (4" dome, 2" exit) retails for over $2000 each.

 

This "Samurai" approach was taken to everything. If a cast aluminum horn "rings", make it out of solid hardwood instead. If a copper shorting ring reduces the rise in voice-coil inductance, use a silver one instead for a 3% performance improvement (at 50x the cost). The result were the best drivers in the world, and most have never been surpassed to this day and are still in production.

 

The exact same thing happened when TAD brought over Andrew Jones from KEF. Do whatever it took to make the very best possible to damn the costs. Ayre has a pair of TAD Ref One speakers and the only competition for them in terms of sound quality (in my opinion) are the Vivid Giya series by Laurence Dickie, formerly with B&W. These are more in line with the traditional ("non-Samurai") approach. All of these speakers are ridiculously expensive however. When it comes to more "real world" prices, I would look at the current KEF lineup, from the LS-50 all the way up to the Blade II. As a brand, I think their sound quality is a step above pretty much most others Just be sure to get one of the ones with the 5" midrange and not the rare ones with the 6-1/2" midrange.

 

But I still stand by my assertion. I can't think of any Japanese electronics that have ever been regarded as "the best available". The only possible exception would be the Connoisseur preamps. They were designed by Jonathan Carr, an American of partial Japanese descent who relocated to Tokyo. The phono stage and the line stage were about $40,000 each (now discontinued). From their website:
 

Based in Tokyo, LYRA is headed by Stig Bjorge from Norway, with American design engineer Jonathan Carr, and Japanese master craftsman Yoshinori Mishima making cartridges and supervising production. All products are manufactured in Japan with microscopic attention to detail under the direct supervision of these three.

 

I don't think they sold many outside of Japan as the rest of the world expects something machined from solid metal weighing 100 pounds for that much money. These are more like the "Samurai" approach - each one something like a work of art - built by hand, no PCB (the leads of each component soldered directly to each other in a 3-D configuration), housed in a beautiful wooden enclosure, fairly small, and weighing perhaps pounds (exclusive of an outboard power supply). But I wouldn't really call that a "Japanese company", would you?

 

Another example of how diverse cultures are is with the island of Bali. It is one of over 17 thousand islands in the nation of Indonesia. Only 12 miles from the main island of Java, its society  is Hindu based rather than Muslim based (like the rest of Indonesia). In the Balinese language, there is no word for "art".

 

Interesting, eh? Why would you have a language with no word for art? Think about it for a while.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

 

The reason is because in traditional Balinese culture, everything they make or do is considered to be what we would call "art". Hence there is no need for a separate word. From making breakfast, to planting crops, to daily prayer, to carving beautiful musical instruments, to taking out the trash, to walking in the woods, to gathering fruits, to you-name-it, it is all done in the same frame of mind as a painter at the easel, a sculptor shaping stone, or a composer writing a musical composition.

 

And no, I don't know of any world-class hi-fi manufacturers in Bali, either.

 

Hope this helps,

Charles Hansen

[kumakuma]

12 minutes ago, Charles Hansen said:

 

What I didn't state was that by combining the foreign leadership with what I call the Japanese "Samurai" mentality led to some of the greatest audio products ever. Let's take a look at what TAD did.

 

 

What you are referring to is the Japanese concept of a Shokunin (craftsman/artisan), not a Samurai (warrior).

 

In traditional Japanese society, shokunin were on the third rung of society after warriors and farmers, but above merchants.