HOW DOES A PERFECT DAC ANALOG SIGNAL LOOK DIFFERENT THAN A CHEAP DAC

[fas42]

13 minutes ago, Charles Hansen said:

In short - almost every Japanese design I've ever seen had inexplicable design choices that limited their performance capabilities.

 

I'm sure it is a cultural thing. Every culture is different and every culture has strengths and weaknesses. But that is why you find that (say) the Swiss are known for fine precision things like watches, sewing machines, and machine tools, the French are known for their fine wines and superb cuisine, the Italians are known for iconic sports cars with a lot of "personality", the Russians are known for great vodkas, crystal oscillators, and advanced microwave technology, the Japanese are known for perhaps the best seafood and beef (Kobe) in the world, and so forth.

 

Hope this helps,

Charles Hansen

 

Thanks for that, Charles. I note that the Japanese seem to love cleverness, or individuality of the design for its own sake - Technics are trying again in electronics, and yet again the promotion is all about the "specialness" of the design ideas. Luckily for me in the case of the Yamaha CDP they happened to fall on the right side of the ledger, and gave good results that time.

 

Cheers,

[gstew]

55 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

I have recently gained respect from Barrows, and he gives you the utmost respect, so i just want to thank you for coming on the boards and taking the time to share...it is noted and appreciated.

 

I am sure you are very busy with all your work, but I truly hope that you can review the LKS specs and design and provide your input.  Since you suggest the chip isn't that important and that the analog circuitry is the most important, maybe pay just attention to that part of it if you are busy.

I think the market for digital music is continuing to grow, but that most have no desire to spend $2K plus for a dac, and the market is saturated with so many choices that for the typical buyer it is just over-whelming and frustrating...especially when like you say there is not much you can hear differently spending less than $2k...that you use the $2k as "the next level" (as i like to call it).  I want, like probably many others the next level for $1K....my hope is that the LKS may be it, but i may be once again disheartened.  Who knows, maybe the pro-ject will be it.

 

My gut feeling though is that reviewers and website promoters will bad mouth anything under $2K as to keep the high end healthy...little do they realize that if they opened up the doors for highend at a low price point, their profits may be more than they anticipated.  The fact that things can't be measured and only heard makes it even more difficult as people need to make their "short lists" based on biased reviews.

 

Anyway, off my soapbox...still looking for the "next-level" DAC after probably close to 4 years of yawn.

BeerandMusic,

 

There's a very good (but long) thread on HeadFi about the LKS MA-DA003 DAC that has recently started investigating the new one using the ESS Pro chips:

 

https://head-fi.org/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-51

 

Poster 'b0bb' seems to be one of those rare people who understands electronics, listens, and is willing to share his knowledge.

 

IF you compare the details of those DACs as described in that thread with what Charles wrote above (and Barrows wrote in a recent post describing his experiences with getting great sound from the ESS-based DAC chips), you'll see that it:

 

1. Uses opamps in the output stages. B0bb's recommended upgrades go to an expensive, exotic discrete opamp, but it is still an opamp.

 

2. Uses the ESS chip in ASRC mode instead of synchronous

 

3. Retains all of the on-chip filtering.

 

4. Uses mostly chip regulators. In some cases very good ones, but still...

 

5. Can stand some clock upgrades... b0bb has outlined several levels, I believe he is currently using the roughly $700 USD Pulsar clock in his.

 

6. In the earlier versions of the ones using the pro clocks, b0bb outlines some issues with the USB input implementation.

 

IMHO from reading the comments above and in the LKS threadl, if you want to get a good deal on a DAC and spend some serious time and $ to improve it, it is possibly a good choice. IF you want a DAC rivaling others in the $5-$10k range, consider looking elsewhere. If you check my sig, you'll see I DIY or modify most of my gear (as much for the fun of it as anything... and two projects I have been slowly working on are to replicate a lot of what Barrows did with his personal DIY'd DACs, but with I2S feeds instead of USB). IF I wanted to go for commercial DACs, I'd sure look at the Schitt Yggy that Charles recommended as one of my top choices along with any Ayre DAC I could possibly afford.

 

My 2 cents...

 

Greg in Mississippi 

 

[beerandmusic]

48 minutes ago, gstew said:

BeerandMusic,

 

There's a very good (but long) thread on HeadFi about the LKS MA-DA003 DAC that has recently started investigating the new one using the ESS Pro chips:

 

https://head-fi.org/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-51

 

Poster 'b0bb' seems to be one of those rare people who understands electronics, listens, and is willing to share his knowledge.

 

IF you compare the details of those DACs as described in that thread with what Charles wrote above (and Barrows wrote in a recent post describing his experiences with getting great sound from the ESS-based DAC chips), you'll see that it:

 

1. Uses opamps in the output stages. B0bb's recommended upgrades go to an expensive, exotic discrete opamp, but it is still an opamp.

 

2. Uses the ESS chip in ASRC mode instead of synchronous

 

3. Retains all of the on-chip filtering.

 

4. Uses mostly chip regulators. In some cases very good ones, but still...

 

5. Can stand some clock upgrades... b0bb has outlined several levels, I believe he is currently using the roughly $700 USD Pulsar clock in his.

 

6. In the earlier versions of the ones using the pro clocks, b0bb outlines some issues with the USB input implementation.

 

IMHO from reading the comments above and in the LKS threadl, if you want to get a good deal on a DAC and spend some serious time and $ to improve it, it is possibly a good choice. IF you want a DAC rivaling others in the $5-$10k range, consider looking elsewhere. If you check my sig, you'll see I DIY or modify most of my gear (as much for the fun of it as anything... and two projects I have been slowly working on are to replicate a lot of what Barrows did with his personal DIY'd DACs, but with I2S feeds instead of USB). IF I wanted to go for commercial DACs, I'd sure look at the Schitt Yggy that Charles recommended as one of my top choices along with any Ayre DAC I could possibly afford.

 

My 2 cents...

 

Greg in Mississippi 

 

that is the 003, i am referrring to the 004.  I have read that many people have modded the 003 for great sound, but some of those same people say the 004 is superb out of the box.

[Charles Hansen]

18 minutes ago, gstew said:

BeerandMusic,

 

There's a very good (but long) thread on HeadFi about the LKS MA-DA003 DAC that has recently started investigating the new one using the ESS Pro chips:

 

https://head-fi.org/threads/lks-audio-mh-da003.745032/page-51

 

Poster 'b0bb' seems to be one of those rare people who understands electronics, listens, and is willing to share his knowledge.

 

IF you compare the details of those DACs as described in that thread with what Charles wrote above (and Barrows wrote in a recent post describing his experiences with getting great sound from the ESS-based DAC chips), you'll see that it:

 

1. Uses opamps in the output stages. B0bb's recommended upgrades go to an expensive, exotic discrete opamp, but it is still an opamp.

 

2. Uses the ESS chip in ASRC mode instead of synchronous

 

3. Retains all of the on-chip filtering.

 

4. Uses mostly chip regulators. In some cases very good ones, but still...

 

5. Can stand some clock upgrades... b0bb has outlined several levels, I believe he is currently using the roughly $700 USD Pulsar clock in his.

 

6. In the earlier versions of the ones using the pro clocks, b0bb outlines some issues with the USB input implementation.

 

IMHO from reading the comments above and in the LKS threadl, if you want to get a good deal on a DAC and spend some serious time and $ to improve it, it is possibly a good choice. IF you want a DAC rivaling others in the $5-$10k range, consider looking elsewhere. If you check my sig, you'll see I DIY or modify most of my gear (as much for the fun of it as anything... and two projects I have been slowly working on are to replicate a lot of what Barrows did with his personal DIY'd DACs, but with I2S feeds instead of USB). IF I wanted to go for commercial DACs, I'd sure look at the Schitt Yggy that Charles recommended as one of my top choices along with any Ayre DAC I could possibly afford.

 

My 2 cents...

 

Greg in Mississippi 

 

 

I have never even heard of the brand before so I did a brief web search. They are a pure Chinese company (not Hong Kong or Taiwan), have no US distribution or warranty service and the internal photos of the MA-DA003 just plain scare me. I've no idea why someone would purchase something like this, from 10,000 miles away with no warranty support, their web site doesn't even show their latest products, and it looks like typical Chinese "high-end".

 

By that I mean that they pick out a few parts that fit people's check boxes - in this case ESS DAC chips and Cardas RCA jacks, and Nichicon capacitors. They put it into a decent looking chassis made of machined or extruded aluminum. Then the rest of the stuff they just copy either from application notes or competitor's products. All of the other parts in there are the cheapest possible Chinese things they can find - the power transformers, the film caps, the PCB-mounted heatsinks, the PCB itself, and so forth. The PCB quality is very low - they use a black solder mask to hide as many of the problems as they can, the layout is very poor with many of the electrolytic capacitor up off the board because they didn't leave clearance for some other parts underneath.

 

Then there is the entire issue of fake parts. The photo that shows the two ESS DAC chips looks like the parts have been removed from another board - the leads are not straight, they look hand-soldered instead of proper reflow oven, the markings on one of the chips appears to be rubbed off. Who knows if those are really even ESS chips or not? Or if they are NIchicon caps or not?

 

I have ordered parts from Hong Kong only to get completely fake things. In this case they had removed dual monolithic Toshiba bipolar transistors from existing equipment, somehow removed the original markings and re-lasered them with markings showing them to be dual monolithic Toshiba JFETs. Putting them on the curve tracer revealed them for exactly what they were. It is hard to comprehend that somebody would go to that much trouble and use fairly sophisticated equipment to sell a$20 worth of fake parts to someone in the US. But I guess if you are starving to death, trying to feed your family on $1 a day, $20 is a fortune and you will do whatever it takes to make that money.

 

Even if some of the parts are "real", the rest of the parts are the cheapest Chinese junk that will make the circuit work. I'm sure that the suppliers of the passive parts changes each time they build a batch, depending on who has the lowest price that week. This is as far away from the "high-end" philosophy as you can get, but by putting it in a milled aluminium chassis and checking all the buzz-words of the day, they can always find someone who wants a "bargain". As PT Barnum said, "There's one born every minute."

 

But don't forget about the hidden costs also. China has no EPA nor OSHA. All of the chemical waste is dumped in the closest empty spot of land, or gutter, or river, or ocean. Workers have no safety protections and are using toxic chemicals for cleaning and finishing that will give them liver and brain cancers. I've been there and seen it and have no desire to support it or participate in it. If you want something decent for a low price, just buy the Schiit. Or maybe wait for that Pro-ject DAC. I wouldn't touch an LKS anything with a 10' pole. That's my opinion - YMMV. I just think there is a lot of much higher quality stuff out there than the "Chinese high-end" equipment, from companies around the world who actually know what they are doing and actually care about it, as well.

 

Hope this helps,

Charles Hansen

[beerandmusic]

10 minutes ago, Charles Hansen said:

 

I have never even heard of the brand before so I did a brief web search. They are a pure Chinese company (not Hong Kong or Taiwan), have no US distribution or warranty service and the internal photos of the MA-DA003 just plain scare me. I've no idea why someone would purchase something like this, from 10,000 miles away with no warranty support, their web site doesn't even show their latest products, and it looks like typical Chinese "high-end".

 

By that I mean that they pick out a few parts that fit people's check boxes - in this case ESS DAC chips and Cardas RCA jacks, and Nichicon capacitors. They put it into a decent looking chassis made of machined or extruded aluminum. Then the rest of the stuff they just copy either from application notes or competitor's products. All of the other parts in there are the cheapest possible Chinese things they can find - the power transformers, the film caps, the PCB-mounted heatsinks, the PCB itself, and so forth. The PCB quality is very low - they use a black solder mask to hide as many of the problems as they can, the layout is very poor with many of the electrolytic capacitor up off the board because they didn't leave clearance for some other parts underneath.

 

Then there is the entire issue of fake parts. The photo that shows the two ESS DAC chips looks like the parts have been removed from another board - the leads are not straight, they look hand-soldered instead of proper reflow oven, the markings on one of the chips appears to be rubbed off. Who knows if those are really even ESS chips or not? Or if they are NIchicon caps or not?

 

I have ordered parts from Hong Kong only to get completely fake things. In this case they had removed dual monolithic Toshiba bipolar transistors from existing equipment, somehow removed the original markings and re-lasered them with markings showing them to be dual monolithic Toshiba JFETs. Putting them on the curve tracer revealed them for exactly what they were. It is hard to comprehend that somebody would go to that much trouble and use fairly sophisticated equipment to sell a$20 worth of fake parts to someone in the US. But I guess if you are starving to death, trying to feed your family on $1 a day, $20 is a fortune and you will do whatever it takes to make that money.

 

Even if some of the parts are "real", the rest of the parts are the cheapest Chinese junk that will make the circuit work. I'm sure that the suppliers of the passive parts changes each time they build a batch, depending on who has the lowest price that week. This is as far away from the "high-end" philosophy as you can get, but by putting it in a milled aluminium chassis and checking all the buzz-words of the day, they can always find someone who wants a "bargain". As PT Barnum said, "There's one born every minute."

 

But don't forget about the hidden costs also. China has no EPA nor OSHA. All of the chemical waste is dumped in the closest empty spot of land, or gutter, or river, or ocean. Workers have no safety protections and are using toxic chemicals for cleaning and finishing that will give them liver and brain cancers. I've been there and seen it and have no desire to support it or participate in it. If you want something decent for a low price, just buy the Schiit. Or maybe wait for that Pro-ject DAC. I wouldn't touch an LKS anything with a 10' pole. That's my opinion - YMMV. I just think there is a lot of much higher quality stuff out there than the "Chinese high-end" equipment, from companies around the world who actually know what they are doing and actually care about it, as well.

 

Hope this helps,

Charles Hansen

you are quoting a model 003, when i was referring to the 004...

 

I am not sure if I initially wrote 003 by mistake or if you are just quoting OP.

Either way, can you confirm you have the same opinion about the 004?

If that is still your opinion, if you don't mind, i am going to blast it out to the other forums for those that are loving and praising it, and see how it washes out.

 

Really curious.

 

Also, do you have same opinion of the australian pro-ject dual mono ess9038?

 

[gstew]

21 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

that is the 003, i am referrring to the 004.  I have read that many people have modded the 003 for great sound, but some of those same people say the 004 is superb out of the box.

BeerandMusic,

 

Sorry I wasn't clear, when I said 'that has recently started investigating the new one using the ESS Pro chips:', that was referring to them discussing the 004 in recent times... at least since post #542 on 3/24/2017.

 

They include internal pictures of the along with sonic and design assessments.

 

What I wrote referenced comments that either pertained to both the 003 and the 004 (very similar designs in many ways) or the 004 specifically.

 

Greg in Mississippi

 

P.S.  AND Charles comments echo my much more limited experiences with getting things from China & Hong Kong... now rarely, in limited cases with vendors I trust, if at all. Or with stuff where the quality of the design and components just doesn't matter. 

[beerandmusic]

^^^  REGARDING the 004, I will find threads I have read that stated the LKS compares favorably to the likes of yggi, vega, and other high end dacs, and that is by MANY DIY'ers.  I also read by many diy'ers that it is superb out of the box.

 

it also is available on amazon, and i have NEVER had a problem returning anything i bought on amazon..

 

I am not saying that is my final dac, but i am thinking something along the lines of it's features.  I hope something better can be made in usa for similar price range.

[beerandmusic]

26 minutes ago, Charles Hansen said:

  they pick out a few parts that fit people's check boxes - in this case ESS DAC chips and Cardas RCA jacks, and Nichicon capacitors. They put it into a decent looking chassis made of machined or extruded aluminum. Then the rest of the stuff they just copy either from application notes or competitor's products.

^^^ i also think it sucks that chinese steal our technology and have cheap labor, but i also believe USA manufacturers are price gauging instead of considering trying the "successful" costco model (high volume, low percentage) and be more consumer friendly. 

 

 

[Charles Hansen]

5 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

you are quoting a model 003, when i was referring to the 004...

 

I am not sure if I initially wrote 003 by mistake or if you are just quoting OP.

Either way, can you confirm you have the same opinion about the 004?

If that is still your opinion, if you don't mind, i am going to blast it out to the other forums for those that are loving and praising it, and see how it washes out.

 

Really curious.

 

Also, do you have same opinion of the australian pro-ject dual mono ess9038?

 

 

How can I have an opinion about a product that isn't even on the company website?

 

It is generally considered bad form to copy a post from one forum to another forum for many reasons. I would strongly prefer that you not do that.

 

You started a thread asking some specific questions. I have answered them to the best of my abilities. It would seem that there are many people who believe that if they buy a D/A converter that uses a specific DAC chip, then it will sound the same as all other D/A converters using that same DAC chip. I have made a lengthy post telling you why this is simply not the case. I hope that I have save you some money and some grief, but the truth is there is no such thing as a free lunch.

 

There is a reason why things cost what they do. If Apple could sell 50 million of them, I'm sure I could design them a DAC that would kick complete ass and retail for $799. But back here in the real world, it ain't never gonna happen. I have pointed out several different choices at several different price points that I consider to be benchmarks in regards of performance to price ratio. I am not going to examine every single DAC on the market to give you my professional opinion. I told you a dozen different reasons why I would never purchase an LKS anything and the first thing you come back with is some magic hope that the same "company" that builds complete junk has a room next door where they build laboratory-grade equipment for the same price. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

 

If you buy an LKS and are happy with it, then good for you. If it never breaks or needs service, the you will be very happy indeed. If you have tried a half-dozen DACs under $1500 and they all sound pretty much the same to you, all I can tell you is that no LKS is going to be any different in that regard. There is an old saying - Performance, features, price. Pick two.

 

There's a reason for that saying - it is true. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

[beerandmusic]

18 minutes ago, Charles Hansen said:

 

How can I have an opinion about a product that isn't even on the company website?

 

It is generally considered bad form to copy a post from one forum to another forum for many reasons. I would strongly prefer that you not do that.

 

You started a thread asking some specific questions. I have answered them to the best of my abilities. It would seem that there are many people who believe that if they buy a D/A converter that uses a specific DAC chip, then it will sound the same as all other D/A converters using that same DAC chip. I have made a lengthy post telling you why this is simply not the case. I hope that I have save you some money and some grief, but the truth is there is no such thing as a free lunch.

 

There is a reason why things cost what they do. If Apple could sell 50 million of them, I'm sure I could design them a DAC that would kick complete ass and retail for $799. But back here in the real world, it ain't never gonna happen. I have pointed out several different choices at several different price points that I consider to be benchmarks in regards of performance to price ratio. I am not going to examine every single DAC on the market to give you my professional opinion. I told you a dozen different reasons why I would never purchase an LKS anything and the first thing you come back with is some magic hope that the same "company" that builds complete junk has a room next door where they build laboratory-grade equipment for the same price. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

 

If you buy an LKS and are happy with it, then good for you. If it never breaks or needs service, the you will be very happy indeed. If you have tried a half-dozen DACs under $1500 and they all sound pretty much the same to you, all I can tell you is that no LKS is going to be any different in that regard. There is an old saying - Performance, features, price. Pick two.

 

There's a reason for that saying - it is true. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Ok, i won't quote you, i am sure when people google the LKS 004, they will find this thread anyway.

It will all eventually wash out one way or the other.

Yea, i think you were looking at wrong dac because the 004 uses class A and Jensen capacitors...

 

excerpt from other board...

<<>>>> Yes, it looks like it is built to its best. Discrete class A components are excellent. It also uses Jensen Capacitors

 

 

 

[Charles Hansen]

4 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

^^^ i also think it sucks that chinese steal our technology and have cheap labor, but i also believe USA manufacturers are price gauging instead of considering trying the "successful" costco model (high volume, low percentage) and be more consumer friendly.

 

Dear Beer,

 

That is great. The US is still a free country. I suggest that you go ahead and start your own USA manufacturing company and sell DACs using the successful Costco model (high volume, low profit margin) and be super customer friendly. Maybe you will end up on the public stock exchange and be recognized for having one of the best CEOs on the planet. Good luck with your business.

 

Cheers,
Charles Hansen

[beerandmusic]

4 minutes ago, Charles Hansen said:

 

Dear Beer,

 

That is great. The US is still a free country. I suggest that you go ahead and start your own USA manufacturing company and sell DACs using the successful Costco model (high volume, low profit margin) and be super customer friendly. Maybe you will end up on the public stock exchange and be recognized for having one of the best CEOs on the planet. Good luck with your business.

 

Cheers,
Charles Hansen

sorry...it wasn't meant to be taken personally...

I am just suggesting if no USA company will do it, people will buy overseas, and that's a shame.

I do believe the market is continuing to grow and will continue to grow as music files are all digital anymore, and people that want quality music, will buy a dac....but not a $2K+ dac...its out of reach for the mass majority.

 

I am happily retired.

[barrows]

Ahhh Charlie, tell it like it is.  Indeed Mr. Hansen has spoken some of the words which I was a bit afraid to, but he is right on in his remarks.

After looking at the LKS DACs which Greg linked to, I see no evidence of any original engineering, and much evidence of cost cutting.  Additionally as C.H. mentions there is the (unfortunately somewhat common) issue of counterfeit parts as well.  While I do not know if there are counterfeit parts here, i would not be surprised.  I have direct experience of counterfeit DAC chips from China in a former job of mine, luckily the engineers at the company I worked for figured it out before it was too late and products got to customers.  When dealing with the Chinese it is unfortunately a buyer beware situation and if you cannot verify what your getting is real, best to not risk it.  

[Charles Hansen]

4 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

<<>>>> Yes, it looks like it is built to its best. Discrete class A components are excellent. It also uses Jensen Capacitors

 

I will pick price and performance, i don't need all the features...

 

This is exactly the way that the "Chinese high-end" business model works. They believe that certain brands of components will equate to performance. Then performance is reduced to a a "feature". They are fooling you.

 

I can easily build two D/A converters that use the same DAC chip, the same brand of capacitors, and both with "discrete class A components", yet one will sound glorious and the other will sound just like every other DAC you've listened to.

 

It's a trick, but it only works if you buy into it. It would be like saying there are two kinds of grapes - red and green. Therefore there are only two types of wine, red and white. All red wines taste exactly the same and all white wines taste exactly the same. Or even if you were more sophisticated and used the French definitions of wines - it's not just the variety of grape, but the region of France where the grapes are grown. Then all Burgundy wines taste the same, all Bordeaux wines taste the same, all Beaujolais wines taste the same, all Volnay wines taste the same, and so on.

 

Can you see the trick yet? FEATURES ARE NOT PERFORMANCE. The DAC chip used is a feature. The brand of capacitor used is a feature. Discrete circuitry is a feature. None of them are guarantees of performance. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

[barrows]

35 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

^^^ i also think it sucks that chinese steal our technology and have cheap labor, but i also believe USA manufacturers are price gauging instead of considering trying the "successful" costco model (high volume, low percentage) and be more consumer friendly.

Beer, as a representative of a company who proudly makes audio components in the US, I am saddened and a bit hurt by your view that US manufacturers are price gouging.  I can assure you that when it comes to high end audio hardware/components that this is just not the case.  Nobody is getting rich doing this, not even the esteemed Mr. Hansen.  There are a lot of fairly intelligent and passionate folks working in this industry in our country, and they do it because they have a love of audio.  Do they make a decent living, sometimes, but it is not an easy business, and it certainly does not lead to wealth.  Nobody in the US would choose this business of there primary goal was to make money as that would be very foolish.

I do not know if you have ever worked for a company which makes a high end product for a limited market, a boutique product if you will, but if you had you would well know about the cost of doing business and bringing innovative products to market in a very small niche industry.

[beerandmusic]

9 minutes ago, barrows said:

Beer, as a representative of a company who proudly makes audio components in the US, I am saddened and a bit hurt by your view that US manufacturers are price gouging.  I can assure you that when it comes to high end audio hardware/components that this is just not the case.  Nobody is getting rich doing this, not even the esteemed Mr. Hansen.  There are a lot of fairly intelligent and passionate folks working in this industry in our country, and they do it because they have a love of audio.  Do they make a decent living, sometimes, but it is not an easy business, and it certainly does not lead to wealth.  Nobody in the US would choose this business of there primary goal was to make money as that would be very foolish.

I do not know if you have ever worked for a company which makes a high end product for a limited market, a boutique product if you will, but if you had you would well know about the cost of doing business and brining innovative products to market in a very small niche industry.

I hear everything you are saying...and maybe that is my mistake, in thinking that the DAC market is much bigger than it actually is.   That may be why i have been waiting for 4 years for a "quality dac" to break the 1K barrier.  Once Teac NT503 came out (sub 1K with tons of features), I jumped on it.

I just feel the itching to try the newest technology within my budget (up to $1500), but perhaps i will sit another year with my fingers crossed.

 

Actually, no matter what, i will buy one of those pro-jects...at that price point and ability to return, it's a no-brainer.

[beerandmusic]

15 minutes ago, Charles Hansen said:

Can you see the trick yet? FEATURES ARE NOT PERFORMANCE. The DAC chip used is a feature. The brand of capacitor used is a feature. Discrete circuitry is a feature. None of them are guarantees of performance. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Ok, when i think features, i was thinking more like "end user features" like different inputs, volume control, choice of algorithms, etc....  I would be happy with a simple box with power, usb port, and analog out if it sounded at a "whole new level" at my budget.

[beerandmusic]

anyway, i think i have pushed this conversation as much as i wanted to...i have learned a lot...thanks for everyone's input.

 

I am giving DACS a rest until i hear more about the pro-ject and LKS, and will likely just continue with my existing 3 dacs for awhile longer until someone comes out with a DAC less than $1500 that has a good consensus.

[RunHomeSlow]

7 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

until someone comes out with a DAC less than $1500 that has a good consensus.

 

Consensus doesn't exist here on ComputerAudiophile  

[Charles Hansen]

17 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

sorry...it wasn't meant to be taken personally...

I am just suggesting if no USA company will do it, people will buy overseas, and that's a shame.

I do believe the market is continuing to grow and will continue to grow as music files are all digital anymore, and people that want quality music, will buy a dac....but not a $2K+ dac...its out of reach for the mass majority.

 

I am happily retired.

 

I didn't take  your comment personally, and I am very difficult to offend, so don't worry about it. I understand your frustration, but the real enemy here are the giant corporations, Wall Street, and the entire US government that has been bought off by special interest groups. Some will pick 1971 as the date we got screwed because Nixon and Kissinger took the US off the gold standard. The only reason that our economy didn't completely collapse is because Nixon and Kissinger made a deal with Saudi Arabia so that all of the OPEC nations would only buy and sell oil in US dollars (the "petro-dollar"). Others will pick 1981 as the date, as that is when Reagan was inaugurated and implemented "trickle-down" economics (which Vice-President Bush I had denounced during the primaries as "voodoo economics").

 

Either way it has continued to this day through both parties - every single administration since 1980 has implemented policies whereby the rich keep getting richer and the middle class suffers. Adjusted for inflation, wages have been stagnant for the last 40 years, while prices of goods has continued to rise. The result is the decline of the middle-class in this country. Over half of all wage earners in the US earn less than $30,000 per year.

 

There has been a fantastic rise in productivity, largely due to the introduction of computers and other automated equipment. Yet 95% of all economic growth since 1980 has gone to the top 1% of all Americans (household income of $200,000 per year or more). The only way they've kept people from rioting after exporting their jobs and destroying their pensions is to import cheap goods from even poorer countries.

 

So yeah, LKS can sell a DAC with some brand-name parts (if they are not fakes) in a milled aluminum chassis for under $1500 - because they pay their workers $2 a day and dump their toxic waste in the gutter. And every day we are programmed to idolize the ultra-rich like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Eric Schmidt, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, and so on - simply because they have more money than is literally comprehensible.

 

Let's try and make sense of the number $1 billion. If you live in most places in the US, you are probably doing oK if you make (say) $100,000 per year. (Sure some places need double that, but let's use round numbers.) You could own a home, own a car, raise some kids, save up for college and/or retirement and spend a few thousand dollars a year on a hobby like hi-fi.

 

Now let's go up an order of magnitude to $1 million a year. You are fat and happy. If you saved for a few years you could pay cash for a dream house. A few years later you could buy a second dream house - for cash. You could drive any car you wanted, go out to dinner as much as you wanted - until you even got sick of the restaurants and would rather just eat at home.

 

Now let's go up another order of magnitude to $10 million a year. We're talking nearly a million dollars a month to spend. How long would it take before you completely ran out of things to buy if you were spending nearly a million dollars a month? In a single year you could pay cash for two dream homes, a yacht, two ridiculous luxury automobiles, and the best stereo system in the world.

 

Now to to Wikipedia and look up Jeff Bezos, founder of Amazon. There is a box in the upper right corner. I look it up a few times a year and every time I look, his net worth has gone up between 3 and 8 billion dollars. I started a couple of years ago and he was worth $67 billion. Now he is worth $89 billion. He is 53 years old.

 

Let's say that you had just ONE billion dollars and were 53 years old. With $1 billion at age 53, let's say you are going to live to be 100 years old. That's 47 more years or 564 more months. If you had just $1 billion, you could spend $1.7 million a month, every single month for the rest of your life before you ran out of money. That assuming you made no investments, made no interest, and didn't earn any more money - just spent it. But Jeff Bezos has $89 billion. So he could spend $158 million every single month - over $5 million per day. And we are supposed to admire people like this. Why?

 

When Henry Ford (no kind-hearted soul, he - but that's a different story altogether) set up his production lines to build cars, he wanted to build cars that the people working in the factory could afford to buy. And now that doesn't work any more. You cannot afford to buy stereo equipment made in the US, because the cost of living in the US is higher than the cost of living in China. You can only afford to buy "luxuries" (like a stereo system) that are made by poorer people who are more desperate than you. And you think it is because the US manufacturers are "price gouging". Do you think the head of any US audio company flies around in a private  jet? Or commutes to work in a private helicopter? Or earns even $1 million (let alone $1 billion)? Sorry to disappoint you, but the only millionaire high-end audio manufacturers that I know of either inherited their wealth or married into it.

 

Actually I have to take that back. I'm sure that there are several mid-fi manufacturers that have made over $1 million from their companies, such as Amar Bose and Matthew Polk. But the only "high-end" manufacturers that I can think of who make over $1 million from their companies are Arnie Nudell (sold Inifinity to Harman International many years ago for probably $20 million or so) and Gayle Sanders (sold Martin-Logan to an investment group for a similar amount about a decade ago). I guess there's more money in loudspeakers than in electronics.

 

Hope this helps,

Charles Hansen

[barrows]

Beer, as I mentioned before, I would strongly suggest you take an opportunity to listen to some more expensive DACs.  It is very informative.  Perhaps an Ayre QX-5.  I am not going to suggest you go beyond your budget, but having an idea of what is possible is good.

[Charles Hansen]

49 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

Ok, when i think features, i was thinking more like "end user features" like different inputs, volume control, choice of algorithms, etc....  I would be happy with a simple box with power, usb port, and analog out if it sounded at a "whole new level" at my budget.

 

That is exactly my point. They are tricking you when they try to equate a certain brand of a certain part with performance. It would be like saying, "I put a aerospace grade titanium bolt in my engine, so now my car has much higher performance". There's an old saying, "If it were that easy, everybody would do it."

 

If you want your sound to to go a "whole new level" at your budget, find someone with a Pono Player and plug it into your system. Then tell me that all DACs sound the same. DACs sound the same when the designers think the same. You have to think outside of the box to get better sound than is normal for a particular price range.

 

And it won't show up on an oscilloscope - "If it were that easy, everybody would do it."

 

Good luck in your search. And remember to have fun! That is the whole point of this hobby - to enjoy listening to music.

 

Cheers,

Charles Hansen

[fas42]

23 minutes ago, Charles Hansen said:

If you want your sound to to go a "whole new level" at your budget, find someone with a Pono Player and plug it into your system. Then tell me that all DACs sound the same. DACs sound the same when the designers think the same. You have to think outside of the box to get better sound than is normal for a particular price range.

 

And it won't show up on an oscilloscope - "If it were that easy, everybody would do it."

 

Good luck in your search. And remember to have fun! That is the whole point of this hobby - to enjoy listening to music.

 

Cheers,

Charles Hansen

 

My slant on this is to say, "It's the System, Stupid!" ...

[mansr]

13 hours ago, Charles Hansen said:

Hi Mansr,

 

The thing that I see over and over and over in this thread is an irrational belief in the importance of the DAC chip itself. Just about everything affect the sound of an audio product, but when it comes to DACs, I would rank (in order or sonic importance the general categories as follows:

 

1) The analog circuitry - 99.9% of all DACs are designed by digital engineers who don't know enough about analog. They just follow the app note. The specs on the op-amps are fabulous and digital engineers are inherently seduced by the beauty of the math story. There are minor differences in the sound quality between various op-amps, but it's kind of like the difference between a Duncan-Heinz cake mix and a Betty Crocker cake mix. 99.8% of the op-amps are used a current-to-voltage converters with the inverting input operating as a virtual ground. This is probably the worst way to use an op-amp as the input signal will cause the internal circuitry to go into slewing-limited distortion. http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/anablog/4311648/Op-amp-myths-ndash-by-Barrie-Gilbert

 

With discrete circuitry, the only limit is your imagination. You are free to adjust the topology of the circuit, the brands of the parts, the active devices, the bias current in each stage - anything you can think of. Think of this as going to a world-class patisserie in Paris and seeing all the different things that can be made.

 

2) The power supplies - 99.9% of all DACs use "3-pin" power supply regulators, which are pretty much op-amps connected to a series pass transistor. Everything in #1 applies here.

 

3) The master clock - jitter is a single number assigned to measure the phase noise of an oscillator over a fixed bandwidth. It is far more important to know the spectral distribution of the timing variations and how they correlate to audible problems. 99.9% of all DACs use a strip-cut AT crystal in a Pierce gate oscillator circuit. It's pretty good for the money but the results will depend heavily on the implementation, particularly in the PCB layout and the power supplies (#2).

 

It's hard to rank the rest of these so I will give them a tie score.

 

4) The digital filter - 99.9% of all DACs use the digital filter built into the DAC chip. About a dozen companies know how to make a custom digital filter based on either FPGAs or DSP chips.

 

4) PCB layout - grounding and shielding, impedance-controlled traces, return currents, and return current paths are all critical. For a complex digital PCB, 8 layers is the minimum for good results.

 

4) The DAC chip - almost everything these days is delta sigma with a built-in digital filter. Differences between different chips is one of the less important aspects of D/A converter designs. Both ESS and AKM have some special tricks to reduce out-of-band noise, which can be helpful, but not dramatic.

 

4) Passive parts - the quality of these can make a large difference in overall performance, especially for analog. Not many digital engineers sit around listening to different brands of resistors to see what sounds best.

 

These are just a few of the things that make differences in the way that a DAC will sound.

 

Hope this helps,

Charles Hansen

That's all well and good, and I mostly agree. However, you did not answer my question at all. You keep stating, in no uncertain terms, that the Pono Player will blow away any sub-$2500 DAC. My question was, what's so special about the Pono Player compared to, say, the $1000 TEAC UD-503 or the Benchmark DAC3 at $2200. After all, the Pono is subject to design constraints (small size, low power) which do not apply to a stationary mains-powered device. I'm not asking you to divulge all your secrets, but if you could indicate in which of the categories above you consider the Pono so superior, that would be great.

[beerandmusic]

9 hours ago, barrows said:

Beer, as I mentioned before, I would strongly suggest you take an opportunity to listen to some more expensive DACs.  It is very informative.  Perhaps an Ayre QX-5.  I am not going to suggest you go beyond your budget, but having an idea of what is possible is good.

I think that is the best advice.  To try a DAC outside my budget with plans of returning it,  just to see if there "really" is any hoopla and anything really worth hoping for.  Maybe an expensive DAC does nothing for my ears, and I can quit chasing a dream of a better DAC, and just chase better speakers.

Is this Ayre available on amazon where I can return it, or any other highly regarded DACS under $5K?