Let's talk about SOTM SMS-200 ULTRA

[gordec]

12 minutes ago, aggielaw said:

 

Are MoCa adapters an option for you?  Might be your best bet.

I'm getting my house hardwired next wee. It's a newer house already have CAT5/7 cables through out. I need to put switch by the network box and then change the telephone line plugs to ethernet plugs. 

[airguitar]

11 hours ago, gordec said:

 

Thanks. I'll probably do that if wifi sounds better than even ethernet. I hope it will be fast enough to stream DSD. I only have DSD64 nothing higher. 

 

I'm not saying Wi-Fi sounds better than Ethernet - if you cannot connect via Ethernet directly then I would say that a Wi-Fi connector is your next best option instead of those noisy power-line adapters.

[gordec]

You guys think getting Neo is worth it over the original Ultra? I'm looking to get an used Ultra (with input clock which I probably won't use) for $800. If I want to upgrade to Neo that's another $200. Maybe better to just wait for a Neo if the upgrade is significant.

[auricgoldfinger]

10 minutes ago, gordec said:

You guys think getting Neo is worth it over the original Ultra? I'm looking to get an used Ultra (with input clock which I probably won't use) for $800. If I want to upgrade to Neo that's another $200. Maybe better to just wait for a Neo if the upgrade is significant.

 

The Neo is a nice upgrade.  I think you're overpaying at $800, especially if you have no plans for the master clock.  Others may differ.

 

If you're a DIY type, build yourself a NUC for 1/2 the price.

[gordec]

38 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

The Neo is a nice upgrade.  I think you're overpaying at $800, especially if you have no plans for the master clock.  Others may differ.

 

If you're a DIY type, build yourself a NUC for 1/2 the price.

 

You can get the NUC sounding as good as the Ultra? I don't mind doing that. I just hardwired ethernet for my house this weekend for network streaming. I'm pretty proud of that 😁

[auricgoldfinger]

3 hours ago, gordec said:

 

You can get the NUC sounding as good as the Ultra? I don't mind doing that. I just hardwired ethernet for my house this weekend for network streaming. I'm pretty proud of that 😁

 

 

[AMR/iFi audio]

On 1/20/2019 at 7:53 PM, gordec said:

 

You can get the NUC sounding as good as the Ultra? I don't mind doing that. I just hardwired ethernet for my house this weekend for network streaming. I'm pretty proud of that 😁

 

DIY-ing a PC for audio purposes isn't rocket science. Lots of materials and examples to work with, you should be OK. The link @auricgoldfinger posted is a treasury. Go for it (if you have time of course 😎)!

[zephyr24069]

On 12/30/2018 at 8:19 PM, LowMidHigh said:

It's off the topic, but Mutec benefits from a steel enclosure and a square wave as well. It's designed for audio applications, whereas the Cybershaft is more general purposes, as the man behind it readily admits.

 

If you get the Cybershaft OT16 with 3 output ports, the price isn't that far from Mutec, which has 8 ports. However, the omh selector on the Cybershaft is a poor idea, at least according to Alex from Uptone. 

"...whereas the Cybershaft is more general purposes, as the man behind it readily admits."

 

My only question on this is when and where did he state this exactly?

 

The Cybershafts are designed for best in class audio playback (or recording chain should units take a 10Mhz master clock input)

as well as video playback/recording should the units take a 10Mhz master clock input.  The latest units also have purpose-built

audio-grade linear-regulated power supplies, again, because the designer targets high-end audio playback and knows the importance of units that either tether to quality LRPSUs or have them internally. Taken from direct quotes from the designer conversations via email.  

 

High respect goes out to Mutec, Uptone, Esoteric and many others on this and related threads with high-end units of various types but let's not write about Cybershaft in way that implies they are somehow less-than...

 

[zephyr24069]

On 12/31/2018 at 1:19 AM, LowMidHigh said:

 

I wonder if anyone can hear the difference between 50 and 75 ohm ports or cables. I regularly mix them without issue although it’s frowned upon! Especially with such short distances we use in HiFi.

 

I never second guess engineers—above my pay grade. I just adhere to the specs, like a good boy. If it didn’t matter, the spec wouldn’t exist.

 

Furthermore, the more resolving the system, the easier the detection. That’s not an affront but an observation. I’m certain your system is incredible.

 

.....

That said, I love the Ref10 and think it’s one of the better clocks out there. 

 

 Mutec is a serious company with pro heritage, which is a big plus in my book.

 

Happy new year.

Well said,....the spec(s) is/are there for a reason.  Ironically enough I and several others spent several months testing this exact hypothesis in a fully blind set of tests;

 

- 50 ohm cables connected to 75 ohm circuits

- 75 ohm cables connected to 50 ohm circuits

- 50 ohm cables with 75 ohm connectors on 50-ohm circuits and then on 75-ohm circuits

- 75 ohm cables with 50 ohm connectors on 75-ohm circuits and then on 50-ohm circuits

...you get the idea

 

all cables were unlabeled and identical to sight/touch/feel, the only things discernible were the 50-ohm versus

75-ohm terminators which are impossible to hide the differences between.

 

The only points of the extended testing was to determine if proper cables, proper terminations, used where they were

spec'ed to be, etc...and the outliers of mixed-build and improper builds made a difference.  We had to record out

listening material choices, repeat them for every test and record listening observations on tonal correctness,

imaging, sound-stagings, pacing, etc....in short every aspect we could muster to detail out each playback experience.

 

All testers were from different places in the world, had different system make up (Esoteric, DCS, many others) and

no-one knew who was involved until months after the test.  When the final results were in, the common theme was

that the proper  cable, connector, and impedance did make a substantial difference and you could hear the differences

both when used correctly and especially when not.

[LowMidHigh]

1 hour ago, zephyr24069 said:

"...whereas the Cybershaft is more general purposes, as the man behind it readily admits."

 

My only question on this is when and where did he state this exactly?

 

The Cybershafts are designed for best in class audio playback (or recording chain should units take a 10Mhz master clock input)

as well as video playback/recording should the units take a 10Mhz master clock input.  The latest units also have purpose-built

audio-grade linear-regulated power supplies, again, because the designer targets high-end audio playback and knows the importance of units that either tether to quality LRPSUs or have them internally. Taken from direct quotes from the designer conversations via email.  

 

High respect goes out to Mutec, Uptone, Esoteric and many others on this and related threads with high-end units of various types but let's not write about Cybershaft in way that implies they are somehow less-than...

 

 

I'll answer your question:

On October 19th 2018, I inquired with Mr Kenji about his return policy. My exact words:

 

Is there a return policy in case I’m not pleased with the product?

 

His reply:

Our return policy applies only when the function of the product is insufficient. This is because we sell products with standards conforming to national standards. Our clock is not specialized in audio. It is sold in a standard calibrated by international standards.

 

Please note this phrase:

Our clock is not specialized in audio.

 

So those are his own words.

 

Further, Cybershaft deploys reclaimed and curated chips. In my book that by itself puts them in unequal footing compared to other vendors.  The 50/75 ohm switch is a questionable practice, or least as I encountered in other threads.

 

I have no vested interest in bashing Cybershaft, but, likewise, there's no reason for me not to divulge facts I'm familiar with.

[zephyr24069]

12 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

I'll answer your question:

On October 19th 2018, I inquired with Mr Kenji about his return policy. My exact words:

 

Is there a return policy in case I’m not pleased with the product?

 

His reply:

Our return policy applies only when the function of the product is insufficient. This is because we sell products with standards conforming to national standards. Our clock is not specialized in audio. It is sold in a standard calibrated by international standards.

 

Please note this phrase:

Our clock is not specialized in audio.

 

So those are his own words.

 

Further, Cybershaft deploys reclaimed and curated chips. In my book that by itself puts them in unequal footing compared to other vendors.  The 50/75 ohm switch is a questionable practice, or least as I encountered in other threads.

 

I have no vested interest in bashing Cybershaft, but, likewise, there's no reason for me not to divulge facts I'm familiar with.

"there's no reason for me not to divulge facts I'm familiar with...."

 

Agreed and definitely not suggesting otherwise.  Putting aside the opinions on the 50/75 ohm switch (personally I don't have one myself and my clock is soon to be upgraded to include 3 outputs with 3 switches 'just in case' I need 75-ohm output ever in the future. I'm not planning on ever moving from 50-ohm 10 Mhz but you never know.

 

Reclaimed and curated chips as a questionable practice:   I respect your opinion and that of others on the forum.  I don't agree with it however for my own setup and listening and backed by multiple years of experience at this point with these clocks. Note I've owned Esoteric G-0s and G-03x and spent a sizable amount of time with the G-0Rb, G-01x and G-1.  Have also trial'ed other word and master clocks.  If using 'reclaimed and curated chips is questionable' as you have put it I cannot hear any advantage to not using them in competing products or any disadvantage of using them in Cybershaft products. If you and others are right, there may be reasons downstream but I'm not likely to live long enough to ever run into it.

 

"Our return policy applies only when the function of the product is insufficient. This is because we sell products with standards conforming to national standards. Our clock is not specialized in audio. It is sold in a standard calibrated by international standards."

 

I think I see the potential issue here; I've worked with and for Japanese companies many times over the past 30+ years. Please remember that 2+ years ago the designer of Cybershaft had almost non-existent English skills (limited to translate utilities I believe) and he has taken time and put effort into trying to learn the language.  I work in the high-tech software field for over 3 decades. At the points I've worked for a Japanese software firm (part of huge Japanese conglomerate) or with Japanese firms as well as Japanese customers, technical manuals, papers, etc...have had to be translated from one language to another.  Syntactic translation is important of course but semantics and subtleties of the language and meaning are IMHO of huge importance moving between Japanese and English.

 

In the case of the paragraph above, I believe the actual meaning is as follows;

 

- the return policy is limited to units that are not functioning properly according to standard testing methods

- all units correct functioning is tested and verified to conform to national (purely technical) standards and test methods

- the testing is not particular to audio usage

- if a clock is to be returned, it must be proven as non-conformant to objective testing according to national testing standards, not subjective audio standards.  If it is failing to conform to these testing standards it will be proven to be functioning incorrectly and the return will be honored...

 

Cybershaft has pictures on their website of both their own test gear as well as the national standards labs that they rent or lease time in to test correct functioning of their clocks.  I've also seen a couple of photos from Kenji of his music listening setup at Cybershaft where he does 'listen' to effects his designs have on audio playback.

 

I could be off base with my read of the passage you have highlighted, but in view of the wording used and other facts I am more very confident that the meaning is something other than what is being ascribed to it.

[LowMidHigh]

11 hours ago, zephyr24069 said:

"there's no reason for me not to divulge facts I'm familiar with...."

 

Agreed and definitely not suggesting otherwise.  Putting aside the opinions on the 50/75 ohm switch (personally I don't have one myself and my clock is soon to be upgraded to include 3 outputs with 3 switches 'just in case' I need 75-ohm output ever in the future. I'm not planning on ever moving from 50-ohm 10 Mhz but you never know.

 

Reclaimed and curated chips as a questionable practice:   I respect your opinion and that of others on the forum.  I don't agree with it however for my own setup and listening and backed by multiple years of experience at this point with these clocks. Note I've owned Esoteric G-0s and G-03x and spent a sizable amount of time with the G-0Rb, G-01x and G-1.  Have also trial'ed other word and master clocks.  If using 'reclaimed and curated chips is questionable' as you have put it I cannot hear any advantage to not using them in competing products or any disadvantage of using them in Cybershaft products. If you and others are right, there may be reasons downstream but I'm not likely to live long enough to ever run into it.

 

"Our return policy applies only when the function of the product is insufficient. This is because we sell products with standards conforming to national standards. Our clock is not specialized in audio. It is sold in a standard calibrated by international standards."

 

I think I see the potential issue here; I've worked with and for Japanese companies many times over the past 30+ years. Please remember that 2+ years ago the designer of Cybershaft had almost non-existent English skills (limited to translate utilities I believe) and he has taken time and put effort into trying to learn the language.  I work in the high-tech software field for over 3 decades. At the points I've worked for a Japanese software firm (part of huge Japanese conglomerate) or with Japanese firms as well as Japanese customers, technical manuals, papers, etc...have had to be translated from one language to another.  Syntactic translation is important of course but semantics and subtleties of the language and meaning are IMHO of huge importance moving between Japanese and English.

 

In the case of the paragraph above, I believe the actual meaning is as follows;

 

- the return policy is limited to units that are not functioning properly according to standard testing methods

- all units correct functioning is tested and verified to conform to national (purely technical) standards and test methods

- the testing is not particular to audio usage

- if a clock is to be returned, it must be proven as non-conformant to objective testing according to national testing standards, not subjective audio standards.  If it is failing to conform to these testing standards it will be proven to be functioning incorrectly and the return will be honored...

 

Cybershaft has pictures on their website of both their own test gear as well as the national standards labs that they rent or lease time in to test correct functioning of their clocks.  I've also seen a couple of photos from Kenji of his music listening setup at Cybershaft where he does 'listen' to effects his designs have on audio playback.

 

I could be off base with my read of the passage you have highlighted, but in view of the wording used and other facts I am more very confident that the meaning is something other than what is being ascribed to it.

 

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. I'll be brief--this digression is too long in the runing.

 

Here's an explanation from the engineer behind Uptone as why 50/75 selector is a bad idea:

 

You may want put those changes to your clock off. 

 

In that regard, I've always found kenjii approach to impedence mismatch far too cavalier. 

 

 

[LowMidHigh]

15 hours ago, zephyr24069 said:

"there's no reason for me not to divulge facts I'm familiar with...."

 

Agreed and definitely not suggesting otherwise.  Putting aside the opinions on the 50/75 ohm switch (personally I don't have one myself and my clock is soon to be upgraded to include 3 outputs with 3 switches 'just in case' I need 75-ohm output ever in the future. I'm not planning on ever moving from 50-ohm 10 Mhz but you never know.

 

Reclaimed and curated chips as a questionable practice:   I respect your opinion and that of others on the forum.  I don't agree with it however for my own setup and listening and backed by multiple years of experience at this point with these clocks. Note I've owned Esoteric G-0s and G-03x and spent a sizable amount of time with the G-0Rb, G-01x and G-1.  Have also trial'ed other word and master clocks.  If using 'reclaimed and curated chips is questionable' as you have put it I cannot hear any advantage to not using them in competing products or any disadvantage of using them in Cybershaft products. If you and others are right, there may be reasons downstream but I'm not likely to live long enough to ever run into it.

 

"Our return policy applies only when the function of the product is insufficient. This is because we sell products with standards conforming to national standards. Our clock is not specialized in audio. It is sold in a standard calibrated by international standards."

 

I think I see the potential issue here; I've worked with and for Japanese companies many times over the past 30+ years. Please remember that 2+ years ago the designer of Cybershaft had almost non-existent English skills (limited to translate utilities I believe) and he has taken time and put effort into trying to learn the language.  I work in the high-tech software field for over 3 decades. At the points I've worked for a Japanese software firm (part of huge Japanese conglomerate) or with Japanese firms as well as Japanese customers, technical manuals, papers, etc...have had to be translated from one language to another.  Syntactic translation is important of course but semantics and subtleties of the language and meaning are IMHO of huge importance moving between Japanese and English.

 

In the case of the paragraph above, I believe the actual meaning is as follows;

 

- the return policy is limited to units that are not functioning properly according to standard testing methods

- all units correct functioning is tested and verified to conform to national (purely technical) standards and test methods

- the testing is not particular to audio usage

- if a clock is to be returned, it must be proven as non-conformant to objective testing according to national testing standards, not subjective audio standards.  If it is failing to conform to these testing standards it will be proven to be functioning incorrectly and the return will be honored...

 

Cybershaft has pictures on their website of both their own test gear as well as the national standards labs that they rent or lease time in to test correct functioning of their clocks.  I've also seen a couple of photos from Kenji of his music listening setup at Cybershaft where he does 'listen' to effects his designs have on audio playback.

 

I could be off base with my read of the passage you have highlighted, but in view of the wording used and other facts I am more very confident that the meaning is something other than what is being ascribed to it.

 

The link doesn't do that job, and I don't want to take you on a wild goose chase. 

Here's what John Swenson writes:

  

"The problem is that in order to have both a 50 and 75 external input you need both a 50 and 75 BNC jack. There is no way to properly electrically implement both with one jack. Any such approach will degrade the signal, I have a feeling those that want to use multi thousand dollar external clocks will NOT want to have the circuit deliberately degrade the signal! "

[zephyr24069]

On 1/27/2019 at 8:52 PM, LowMidHigh said:

 

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. I'll be brief--this digression is too long in the runing.

 

Here's an explanation from the engineer behind Uptone as why 50/75 selector is a bad idea:

 

You may want put those changes to your clock off. 

 

In that regard, I've always found kenjii approach to impedence mismatch far too cavalier. 

 

 

Thanks for the feedback and the later post as well. I'll definitely give this some thought!

[nekoaoyama]

Guys, this is a SOtM thread. Your discussion is off topic, could you please take it to PM or create another thread. Thank you.

[gordec]

I got the ultra non-neo. It sounds absolutely fantastic. It destroys any USB connection by a mile. I do have issues with audio stuttering. My current setup is Window 10 pc-> ultra -> ifi pro idsd. I run DLNA server with Jriver using an internal harddrive. I had similar issues when I was trying to use pro idsd as a network player via ethernet using hosting DLNA server with Jriver. Music will play fine then start to stutter. Everything in the chain is hardwired on ethernet through a switch. I have tried the following:

1. Turning off wifi

2. Removing windows defender.

 

Now I can go about 2 days with smooth playback even with DSD without rebooting the computer, but the stutter will eventually come back. Samething happens to Audirvana+ for windows. Has anyone experienced this? I feel it's a problem with Windows 10 and how it hosts DLNA server.  It's probably not an issue with SMS200 ultra. I was really hoping by having the server on the Ultra would take care of the problem. 

[astrostar59]

A few questions on the SOtM 200 Ultra Neo set.

 

1. Does the Room Core need to be on a dedicated server? i.e.. not a work Mac.

I have a setup where I can use an optimised Mac mini with Uptone 12V mod just as Roon Core,

or an iMac that I use to do work on. If there is a degrade in sound I would of course use the Mac mini.

 

2. Do you get as good or better sound quality running your library off an external SSD or NAS v using a large SD card sat in the 200 (with the system on and music files as well)?

 

3. What SQ jump do you get with the USB Tx v the external clock unit? 

[Tommd64]

2 hours ago, astrostar59 said:

A few questions on the SOtM 200 Ultra Neo set.

 

1. Does the Room Core need to be on a dedicated server? i.e.. not a work Mac.

I have a setup where I can use an optimised Mac mini with Uptone 12V mod just as Roon Core,

or an iMac that I use to do work on. If there is a degrade in sound I would of course use the Mac mini.

 

2. Do you get as good or better sound quality running your library off an external SSD or NAS v using a large SD card sat in the 200 (with the system on and music files as well)?

 

3. What SQ jump do you get with the USB Tx v the external clock unit? 

Dear Astrostar; my advise is;

 

1.yes, because of the working processors dedicated is better.

2. I think your first option is the best.

3. It depands if you have a sotm switch or a clock connection on your sotm200ultra.. 

[astrostar59]

6 hours ago, Tommd64 said:

Dear Astrostar; my advise is;

 

1.yes, because of the working processors dedicated is better.

2. I think your first option is the best.

3. It depands if you have a sotm switch or a clock connection on your sotm200ultra.. 

Thanks for that good advice. My system idea would be:

Netgear router with fibre optical 600mps > Ethernet 1000 base T > Mac mini with 12v DC mod running Room Core > SOtM 200 Ultra Neo with attached ext SSD > USB > DAC input.

 

I would use the SOtM 500 power supply, and possibly the external clock. The whole system is run off the PS Audio P10 power regenerator.

 

My question is then, would the external clock improve sound quality much? Or is the USB Tx more effective. The clock is expensive, thus my question.

[Thomas_2013]

I am in use of sms200ultra and txb-ultra and sps500  - my next step is an external word clock. there is a mutec ref 10 at high-end-broker (new) for 3t euro. I think there is no need of the SOtM-Clock-Cables (700$) - you can get BNC cables for 9,90€ -

 

I want to connect the external word clock additional to my pink-faun-i²s-bridge - looking for a way to realize..

 

 

[Tommd64]

1 hour ago, astrostar59 said:

Thanks for that good advice. My system idea would be:

Netgear router with fibre optical 600mps > Ethernet 1000 base T > Mac mini with 12v DC mod running Room Core > SOtM 200 Ultra Neo with attached ext SSD > USB > DAC input.

 

I would use the SOtM 500 power supply, and possibly the external clock. The whole system is run off the PS Audio P10 power regenerator.

 

My question is then, would the external clock improve sound quality much? Or is the USB Tx more effective. The clock is expensive, thus my question.

Hallo Astrostar, an excellent idea, the tx ultra is a very good improvemd, so is the sps500 a great update! With different clocksettings ihave no personel experience with that but consider and try sNH-10g switch from SotM, you be amazed. The sNh10g is already sfp proven for your NAS or for your switch self. Dont trow away your netgear because (don,t laugh) it wil be different if you put it before the sotm switch..

[Confused]

Is anyone successfully using the new 100BASE-T mode with HQPlayer?  I can get Roon, Shairport etc. working with 100BASE-T, no issues, but not HQPlayer.  I am interested in any feedback from other HQPlayer users, as I am not sure if this is an intrinsic problem, or maybe something unique to my particular set-up?

[tedwoods]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

Is anyone successfully using the new 100BASE-T mode with HQPlayer?  I can get Roon, Shairport etc. working with 100BASE-T, no issues, but not HQPlayer.  I am interested in any feedback from other HQPlayer users, as I am not sure if this is an intrinsic problem, or maybe something unique to my particular set-up?

100BASE-T works fine at the server/router side , so it's not HQPlayer related. It's an intrinsic problem, I'm afraid. Contrary to what I have posted (my apologies...my source of confusion came from the fact that the SoTM switch "reverses" the indicator lights), there is currently no way to set up NAA for 100BASE-T. I have reported the problem to SoTM and I'm hoping they'll be working on a solution, since the S.Q. difference is quite evident, in standalone Roon at least...

[Confused]

51 minutes ago, tedwoods said:

100BASE-T works fine at the server/router side , so it's not HQPlayer related. It's an intrinsic problem, I'm afraid. Contrary to what I have posted (my apologies...my source of confusion came from the fact that the SoTM switch "reverses" the indicator lights), there is currently no way to set up NAA for 100BASE-T. I have reported the problem to SoTM and I'm hoping they'll be working on a solution, since the S.Q. difference is quite evident, in standalone Roon at least...

Thanks, interesting.  Maybe I’ll try Roon / 100BASE-T for a while, something to try until the issue gets sorted?

[aggielaw]

I've spent nearly 60 hours trying to update my firmware to 0.4.59.  I'm having to use the "recovery instructions" because updating through enuhasu freezes at 92% and won't finish.

 

I've gone back and forth with engineers at Passmark about why the image won't write, and one engineer noticed from my screenshot that the .img file is almost the same size as the zipped file.  He said when he unzipped the file it was just under 8GB.

 

So, can someone here please tell me the size of the 0.4.59 file after unzipping, and what Windows software you used to unzip?  I've used WinRAR, WinZIP, adn 7-ZIP, and they all unpack the file from 2.64GB to 2.68GB.

 

Thanks,

HC