MQA is Vaporware

[The Computer Audiophile]

21 minutes ago, bambadoo said:

New MQA kid on the block. THX this time

https://www.thx.com/onyx

 

 

 

876 pages here and we are all wrong. 

 

Such a joke. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Wow, I didn't know THX had fallen this far -> THX "is now owned by the prolific gaming peripherals company, Razer."

[The Computer Audiophile]

12 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

I am currently working on a video, and I got some tracks published on tidal, in MQA. These tracks contained various test signals such as impulse response, square wave, white noise, multitone, and even the entire RMAA test sequence.

After collecting all evidence and documenting all the discovered issues (some of which have not yet been discussed elsewhere), I contacted MQA to give them a chance to comment prior to this video (and post here) going live.

They have not responded to me, BUT, they have had my tracks pulled from Tidal, and have spoken to the publisher I used to have them block me.

The tracks are still up on some sites such as Deezer, and I have the MQA encoded files saved as well as analog recordings of a full-decode. And I will share these in the final post and video.

But for now, I'm just posting this quickly in order to inform people that MQA's response to me reaching out was to attempt to censor me, and I want to ask that a few people confirm the track's presence before it is fully gone.
If you go in roon and search for "The Callout" by GoldenSound, you will still see that it shows as being on Tidal, in MQA in their DB. Though I'm sure this will not be for long.

The video and post, as well as the tracks themselves, should hopefully prove quite useful for anyone wanting to look further into what MQA is doing.

I can’t believe nobody did this previously. Brilliant. 
 

This is classic MQA Ltd. Try to censor or in my case talk more often and louder. 
 

I’ll ask the rhetorical question I always ask, does a company with nothing to hide act this way?

 

It’s crazy (at least to me) what Bob Stuart, Mike Jbara, Ken Forsythe, and others will do for a dollar. The MQA stink ain’t coming off those guys. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

Given how they dodged questions and attempted to desperately divert the conversation in your 2018 rmaf talk (which I discuss a little in the video, hope you don't mind), I didn't really expect anything different. Hence why I made backups :) 

No worries from me. As long as everything is factual, it’s all welcome. 
 

Smart move on the backups. 
 

Right after someone uploaded my RMAF talk to YouTube, I asked someone to immediately download it for me while I was at dinner. I don’t put anything past these guys.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Tidal has really lost the plot. They followed MQA's dogma right off the cliff. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

37 minutes ago, Currawong said:

GoldenOne has kindly shown me the files and their output after MQA processing. It's not so much of a surprise after Stereophile's JA verified the low-level signal distortion some time back, but it does prove unequivocally that they are neither "de-blurring" music, nor impulse responses (which are not music), either on the input side or the output side.

 

But also, for the MQA group to force the publisher to block him -- I don't think any more needs to be said about that, other than it's proof that they are desperate to hide the truth.

 

Oh, and http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/highresaudio-to-stop-offering-mqa/.

That press release is golden. how many bridges can Bob Stuart, Ken Forsythe, and Mike Jbara burn. That’s rhetorical. Please don’t list the many hundreds. 
 

 

From the release:

 

HIGHRESAUDIO has stopped offering MQA. MQA is NOT lossless, the original signal is never recovered, estimate to recover at most 17bits (reduces the sampling rate), reduces the frequency range, SNR reduced by 3bit, aliasing with artifacts at 18kHz. MQA encoding filters manipulates drastically the original source. No analysis tools are available to verify the encoded MQA content. Therefore no quality control is possible. highresaudio.com stands for offering purity, original mastering source, none manipulated, tweaked or up-sampled content and codecs that are widely supported and offer use of freedom. 

"We hope that MQA will adjust all the above issues. We are truly disappointed, the way MQA has progressed in the past year. We have been mislead and blinded by trust and promises."

MQA Claims:

- Compressing High Resolution Audio for Streaming Applications by keeping the audio quality.

- Applying adaptive filters to do "time domain optimization"

MQA Summary:

- MQA is NOT lossless!!! The original Signal is never recovered!

- We estimate that MQA is only able to recover at most 17Bits at 96kHz

- The primary MQA benefit is the reduction of the bit rate. We will prove that an alternative method can reach a similar reduction but keeps the "Sample Rate" and therefore the "Timing" of the audio signal.

- MQA is not usable for "Legacy Devices" because of heavy Aliasing causing increasing distortions beyond 18kHz.

- Applying adaptive filters that permanently change the original signal will most likely do more harm than good. Well, we want the original signal and not something that tries to resemble it as good as possible. It may sound different, but how can it be better than the original record?

I have asked MQA weeks ago to correct the marketing communication towards the end user and media. As long as MQA is not prepared to straighten the facts, we will not offer MQA any more. The customer needs to know what he pays for, and we have to be able to check technically what we offer and sell to our customers. We are in a very sensible and delicate niche music market. Over the past seven years we have established a very good market position, created a new business for the music industry and artists and customers that cherish the best audible sound reproduction. We moved the music and HiFi-industry into a new business domain, with very little support from anyone. Our USP is that we guarantee (and this is not just said and done) your customers, nothing but the true, native and original source. We can analysis and verify any other audio codec (with MusicScope even DSD and DXD). For MQA is nothing available to assure that the customer is getting our "promise“. We are in the first and front rule, selling music and technology to a new and established customer, that truly expects nothing but the real thing! 

Selling HighRes Audio files requires so much dedicated and detailed work prior in selling (download / streaming) the music. This time needs to be invested by qualified audio engineers and a team that understands the total reproduction path. An extensive quality control is therefore a „must-have“ and needs to be in place to fulfill the "promise“. 

If these parameters are right, than we can provide our customers with honest facts to purchase MQA, and then we will continue to only offer "Authenticated MQA" again. Since beginning 2016 we offer native Studio Masters for MQA encoded, where we can trace and verify the origin of the source. Meaning from Mastering Studios that use MQA in their production workflow and process and are personally signed off. 

No matter whether downloading or streaming. The perception and expectations of the customer is different. We can not sell and promote HighRes unless HighRes is supplied! For our customers, quality, trust and reliability are the top priorities.

Am I now the bad guy? No, I would like that we continue to offer in the niche, customer native and original high-resolution music. There are plenty of new and established customers that are looking for high-resolution albums every day. The HighResAudio market would have grown rapidly and successfully, if the awareness among the responsible people in the music industry were familiar with our target group. Since 2010, we have been a single player on a broad front. Our mission: to offer music lovers, artists, hi-fi enthusiasts and manufacturers of audio devices to offer a new perspective in the digital age for the perfect music reproduction for a unique listening experience.

Lothar Kerestedjian,

Managing Director, HighResAudio

[The Computer Audiophile]

54 minutes ago, botrytis said:

A post from the Mod on that thread....

 

We have received the following statement from an 'MQA spokesperson':

"The technical claims presented by HIGHRESAUDIO are fundamentally incorrect and ill-informed. These assertions are consistent with the few we have seen from others who are uncomfortable with the concept of studio quality audio that is convenient for all."

Wow. 
 

Let’s see, what’s more convenient, the Tracy Chapman 44.1 master that’s encoded as FLAC/WAV/ALAC or the one that uses a proprietary scheme to remove data and requires a decoder on the users’ device. 
 

Bob Stuart, Mike Jbara, and Ken Forsythe are so transparent it’s not even funny. They should take up politics. Their answers fit much better in that space. 
 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, firedog said:

Except that the press release is 4 years old, and they've changed their minds year ago and have been offering MQA ever since.

Good eye. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

24 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

I am beginning to think that MQA was developed by L. Ron Hubbard.

Don't give them any ideas about claiming tax exempt status. Oh wait, a company has to make money in order to owe taxes. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

I’m sure this will be hard hitting journalism. 
 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

39 minutes ago, Fast and Bulbous said:

Really? Looks like a great opportunity to hear about how wonderful MQA is from a really insightful, technically well informed and objective publication, conducted by an interviewer who is authoritative in the field. What's not to like?

I love her unhealthy obsession with pizza. My type of person. Not sure about her digital signal processing or fraud investigation chops though. 
 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, JoeWhip said:

I have seen her on the Beeb. I don’t think this interview will even rise to the softball level. Maybe wiffle ball.

I'm sure she is talented and an interesting person, but the fact that Bob selected her as his PR outlet is very telling. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

I've made a long video exploring MQA using files I had published, in MQA, on Tidal.
I'll be writing up a written article this evening to post here and will include the original masters, MQA encoded versions, and unfolded MQA versions so that anyone else can look at them and test further.

MQA did respond to me and their response is discussed at the end of the video (timestamps in playbar/description)
 

 

This is amazing.

[The Computer Audiophile]

44 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

My current favorite coffee is an Ethiopian Yirgacheffe medium dark roast, ground relatively fine.

 

I usually do a pour over using a Kalita Wave 185 Wave stainless steel dripper into a Hario V60 double-walled 15oz coffee glass.

 

   

How about you?

MQA could pack your coffee in a smaller bag and add some dirt to it when you open it up. If you pay for a certified coffee machine, the coffee company and MQA ltd will get paid, and you’ll get slightly less dirt in your coffee. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 minutes ago, botrytis said:

I was on HiFiplus website this morning and now cannot get to their website. Anyone else having issues?

 

I am wondering if MQA had something to do with it...

You need the html decoder. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, botrytis said:

This is what I get from going to hifiiplus .

yeah, HF+ is routed through cloudflare, but the HF+ server isn't responding.

[The Computer Audiophile]

48 minutes ago, firedog said:

In the early days of digital there were only a few ADC's in use, so it's probably possible. Today, not so much.

Plus the subtle differences between units as they age. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, lucretius said:

 

He sells environmental test equipment.

to Volkswagen?

[The Computer Audiophile]

42 minutes ago, JoshM said:

Not sure whether this is better placed in this thread, the thread on @GoldenOne’s video, or the ASR thread, but:

 

1) Over at ASR, John Atkinson is claiming that Golden’s test is invalid since everyone knows a lossy encoder (we’re now apparently conceding that MQA is lossy) can’t handle the signals Golden encoded. This is the same claim Amir made, and if you look at John’s “likes” at ASR, he’s “liking” every post criticizing Golden’s test and defending MQA. 
 

2) Amir has just given a response that completely negates the point of every measurement he’s ever done:

 

 

 

Could this have gone any other way? 

[The Computer Audiophile]

You have to ask yourself, what’s in it for people to support MQA like this. Money, access, and perceived power. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

21 minutes ago, KeenObserver said:

The fact that Bob Stuart still tries to push this scheme

He has to. He told me, “We’ve spent millions of dollars on this.” As if I should just go with it because his investors have lost a lot of money so far. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

20 minutes ago, danadam said:

AUDIOPHILESTYLE_IS_CHILDISH

If you don’t like AS, you are free to leave at anytime. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

It would be a great experiment if someone without any digital audio bonafides created a marketing scheme that said he'd just invented MP6. It's twice as good as MP3, perceptually lossless, and is inside a FLAC container. However, it was really just MQA files in the FLAC container. 

 

Does anyone think

1. The product would even get considered by the old guard or

2. It would be hailed as the birth of a new digital world? 

 

MQA is essentially MP6. A lossy perceptual encoding scheme packed inside a lossless container. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

15 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

It may be of interest, but I had a conversation with someone in the industry recently who shared a little insight.

 

Bob Stuart apparently created a new format originally for what was the Ponoplayer.

Bob then later began marketing it standalone as MQA after Neil refused to incorporate it into the PonoPlayer.

 

Additionally, and I'm intentionally leaving details out for now until a few things are confirmed but, it might actually be the case that MQA doesn't have the full intellectual property rights to their product and the way they are currently operating may not be legal.
GPL is an interesting area....

This is from Neil Young's book "To Feel the Music" (Thank you Rusty Shackleford for posting):

“Stuart had been attending our monthly development meetings at Neil’s ranch as the team’s audio expert. But as we progressed with the development of the player, it was Gallatin who designed the player’s electronics, while Stuart provided suggestions and comments along the way. Stuart’s main contribution was to be his software.

In these meetings Stuart would describe his software in general terms with little specificity. He explained it as something very complex that involved encoding and decoding using both software and hardware. But he was always reluctant to provide specific details about when we’d see it.

I could sense that Neil was becoming frustrated and impatient, because that software was critical to completing and testing the player. It was not only Neil; the entire development team had begun to wonder whether we’d ever see anything. It made us all very nervous.”

“To signify that a file was authentic, Bob Stuart came up with the idea to put a blue light on the Pono player that would go on when a Pono recording was being played, letting the user know that the recording was Pono: the highest resolution, a pure, unaltered file.”

“Finally, in our November monthly meeting, Stuart said he was ready to discuss the terms for Pono using the software. Hamm flew to the UK to meet with him and the investors in Meridian: the Richemont Group, a Switzerland-based company that owns a number of European luxury fashion brands.

The terms they proposed to Hamm included monthly payments, royalties for each player sold, more stock, and no exclusivity. The terms were much more onerous than Pono could afford and made no business sense based on normal industry standards. Not only would the software not be exclusive to Pono, but it also restricted what Pono could do with it. For example, if Pono was sold or licensed its player to be built or sold by another company, then his technology could not be included.

During these negotiations, Hamm explained our economics and tried to negotiate a more favorable arrangement. Discussions and negotiations continued for several months and included Hamm, Elliot, Neil, Cohen, and Stuart and his investors, but they never were able to come to an agreement.

When I interviewed Stuart for this book, he thought that Pono management had been unreasonable by not accepting his terms, because of the value his software would provide. Stuart felt its value was much greater than what Pono believed it to be. Stuart’s software eventually became the basis for a proprietary compression technology called MQA.”

“Charley dismissed Stuart’s technology as solving a problem that didn’t exist and therefore no longer needed solving. We had no reason to shrink the files at all, since memory and file size were not the issues they had been years earlier. Like Neil, he was opposed to a new proprietary music format that added new restrictions to the music files and was controlled by for-profit companies.”

“Bob Stuart contacted our lawyer, Rick Cohen, and said we were disclosing confidential information on our Kickstarter website. He was referring to an image of the inside of the Pono player that showed the prototype circuit board, including the programmable memory chip that was to store his software—the software that hadn’t arrived.

I thought his complaint was unfounded because there was nothing that was proprietary in the image that would indicate anything related to his technology, and nothing that he designed. In fact, his backing out of our arrangement required us to design around the chip in order to get our early prototypes to work. The chips simply just sat on the boards unused.”

 

I touched on this here, a little bit - https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/book-review-neil-youngs-to-feel-the-music-a-songwriters-mission-to-save-high-quality-audio-r834/

 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, danadam said:

Er... ok. Thank you for informing me about this fact, I guess.

 

Other than the link annoyance it's mostly fine, though.

 

But I get the message. I will refrain from expressing my opinion on the link switcheroo in the future.

 

See! This is the quality content I visit this forum for. What's not to like?

 

You do know why I had to disable links, right?