A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[rickca]

3 hours ago, flkin said:

The conclusion is that the modified sMS-200 was not clocking properly from the tx-USBultra and I have to return it for repair.

So this should have been caught by SOtM QA testing prior to shipment?  

[flkin]

2 minutes ago, rickca said:

So this should have been caught by SOtM QA testing prior to shipment?  

 

They probably tested it but my problem was intermittent - my SOtA/Uptone stack would play for a few hours/minutes just fine then in mid-track, it would crash. Sometimes a complete reboot of all components would solve the problem, other times the stack simply wouldn't reboot. So it was difficult to figure out what happened.

 

Fortunately the stack was in a state of working when Kim connected into my system and he actually watched it start to disconnect with intermittent successful sMS-200 pings and then finally totally fail. He rooted into the sMS-200, did some checks in Eunhasu, had me reboot with clock cables disconnected (first 24M then both 24M and 25M) and kept an eye on the network pings. Eventually concluding it was a hardware issue.

 

There are probably many here that have the Trifecta set and it's not as if every other stack fails. So I just count myself unlucky. SOtM agreed to send me a new replacement immediately and not wait for me to return my unit first, that's pretty decent of them. Hope to have it before Christmas..

[rickca]

17 minutes ago, flkin said:

There are probably many here that have the Trifecta set and it's not as if every other stack fails. So I just count myself unlucky. SOtM agreed to send me a new replacement immediately and not wait for me to return my unit first, that's pretty decent of them.

No question that SOtM provides excellent customer service and that your situation is an exception.

[KMan]

4 hours ago, flkin said:

 

They probably tested it but my problem was intermittent - my SOtA/Uptone stack would play for a few hours/minutes just fine then in mid-track, it would crash. Sometimes a complete reboot of all components would solve the problem, other times the stack simply wouldn't reboot. So it was difficult to figure out what happened.

 

Fortunately the stack was in a state of working when Kim connected into my system and he actually watched it start to disconnect with intermittent successful sMS-200 pings and then finally totally fail. He rooted into the sMS-200, did some checks in Eunhasu, had me reboot with clock cables disconnected (first 24M then both 24M and 25M) and kept an eye on the network pings. Eventually concluding it was a hardware issue.

 

There are probably many here that have the Trifecta set and it's not as if every other stack fails. So I just count myself unlucky. SOtM agreed to send me a new replacement immediately and not wait for me to return my unit first, that's pretty decent of them. Hope to have it before Christmas..

SOTM customer service/technical support is quite good and very responsive. I did have a similar experience and I thought I must have bee extremely unlucky as I did not see a similar report here.

 

I received my modded switch/sms-200/txUSBultra about 10 days back, now it is on its way to SOTM to be fixed. It would play redbook for about 40 minutes and higher sampling rates for progressively shorter duration before it would stop responding to pings. When I replaced the sms-200 with my microRendu (of course without any reclocking), everything would work without any issues . Then things started getting worse and sms-200 would stop responding after a few minutes, which made it easy to show the SOTM team when they did the team-viewer session. We came to a similar conclusion, something was broken in how the SMS-200 was reclocked.  But during the short spans when it was working, it sounded wonderful as many have already reported here. I was willing to accept the risk and the delay as this is a custom build, with the assumption that it will be resolved, just as I am willing to wait patiently for PH's  power supply...

 

I had asked for a SMS-200 as a loaner to make sure it was not my network and I was promptly shipped one and it has been working flawlessly.

[Johnseye]

6 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

 

Everything! 

 

I need to follow a recipe such as Roy's and order a bunch of server components. 

 

Why wouldn't you do this anyway?  You don't have to of course.  Just buy a NUC.  But I like being able to hand pick each component.

 

6 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

I need to hope all the components I buy are compatible and I haven't ordered the wrong ones. 

 

This isn't hope if you read some simple specs.

 

6 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

I need to send the motherboard to Korea for chrissakes and hope I pack it in antistatic materials correctly. 

 

Yea, this isn't a big deal at all.  Just use the same packaging that came with the hardware and put it in one box.

 

6 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

I need to assemble the server correctly. 

 

Not hard.  Screw the mobo to the chassis and plug in the cables.  It will take you about an hour or two.

 

6 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

I need to hope I don't mess up the BIOS settings. 

 

Nothing to mess up.  You can always change them.  

 

6 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

Likewise I need to not mishandle anything because a misplaced electrostatic shock could cause invisible damage. 

 

Not so much.  No need to be paranoid about it, just don't drag your feet across carpet then touch the hardware.

 

6 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

I need to install my drivers, operating system and player software. 

 

Have you never installed software before?

 

6 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

I need to troubleshoot it if it doesn't work for any reason. 

I need to troubleshoot it if it doesn't sound good for any reason. 

 

Yes you may have to do this.

 

6 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

And soldering! You're kidding me, right! 

 

There is no soldering involved.  I have not soldered a single component.

 

 

6 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

 

Elvia - this stuff might seem simple to you and kudos to you for that. But it's anything but simple to many of us. 

 

If the Zenith SE can get me 90% there in terms of SQ, includes a truly great PSU, can be set up in an hour and is supported by Innuos then that sounds simple to me. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

 

To each their own Alan.  It sounds like you're more afraid of what you don't know rather than actually having tried to build your own PC before.  It isn't hard, but the choice is yours.

[Johnseye]

4 hours ago, flkin said:

 

They probably tested it but my problem was intermittent - my SOtA/Uptone stack would play for a few hours/minutes just fine then in mid-track, it would crash. Sometimes a complete reboot of all components would solve the problem, other times the stack simply wouldn't reboot. So it was difficult to figure out what happened.

 

Fortunately the stack was in a state of working when Kim connected into my system and he actually watched it start to disconnect with intermittent successful sMS-200 pings and then finally totally fail. He rooted into the sMS-200, did some checks in Eunhasu, had me reboot with clock cables disconnected (first 24M then both 24M and 25M) and kept an eye on the network pings. Eventually concluding it was a hardware issue.

 

There are probably many here that have the Trifecta set and it's not as if every other stack fails. So I just count myself unlucky. SOtM agreed to send me a new replacement immediately and not wait for me to return my unit first, that's pretty decent of them. Hope to have it before Christmas..

 

Interesting.  First time I've heard of this issue.  Glad you got help to get it resolved.  Great customer service, especially since they're shipping you a replacement immediately.

[auricgoldfinger]

Would this be a good option (due to the all-flash design) for those of us who are tethered to a NAS?

 

https://www.synology.com/en-global/products/FS1018

[Johnseye]

9 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

Would this be a good option (due to the all-flash design) for those of us who are tethered to a NAS?

 

https://www.synology.com/en-global/products/FS1018

 

If you can afford an all SSD NAS.  One 4TB drive is about $1700.  Keep in mind you don't need speed and SSDs have their own noise.  I'm not sure what would be gained over spindles for a storage medium.

[auricgoldfinger]

1 minute ago, Johnseye said:

 

If you can afford an all SSD NAS.  One 4TB drive is about $1700.  Keep in mind you don't need speed and SSDs have their own noise.  I'm not sure what would be gained over spindles for a storage medium.

 

Thanks for your thoughts!

[lmitche]

17 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

Would this be a good option (due to the all-flash design) for those of us who are tethered to a NAS?

 

https://www.synology.com/en-global/products/FS1018

This looks like an expensive noise maker to me. A hard disk in a USB 3 enclosure powered by one or two low noise LPSes, 5 and 12 volts, connected to an LPS powered USB card is tough to beat.

[auricgoldfinger]

1 minute ago, lmitche said:

This looks like an expensive noise maker to me. A hard disk in a USB 3 enclosure powered by one or two low noise LPSes, 5 and 12 volts, connected to an LPS powered USB card is tough to beat.

 

Thank you!

[Johnseye]

7 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

 

 

"Clean clock".  Accurate so there's no or minimized distortion.  Low phase noise with an excellent quality clock.

Yes, the buffer can help but it's not an end all be all and it depends on the DAC.

[mozes]

58 minutes ago, lmitche said:

This looks like an expensive noise maker to me. A hard disk in a USB 3 enclosure powered by one or two low noise LPSes, 5 and 12 volts, connected to an LPS powered USB card is tough to beat.

I have a similar setup. A 2TB HDD sitting in an enclosure connected to LPS-1 powered tX-USBexp via USB3.0. The tX-USBexp provides clean power to the HDD via the USB 3.0 bus.

[LTG2010]

17 minutes ago, mozes said:

I have a similar setup. A 2TB HDD sitting in an enclosure connected to LPS-1 powered tX-USBexp via USB3.0. The tX-USBexp provides clean power to the HDD via the USB 3.0 bus.

I am also considering this and the value of having a second tx-USBexp. Why not connect the HDD directly to the motherboard via SATA, you can still power it seperately/externaly with a LPS just use a SATA Data cable. I can see the benefit of connecting the tx-USBexp via PCIE ( direct route to CPU) but you also have a weak link, the USB socket on the HDD enclosure, plus the expense of a second tx. Any thoughts appreciated.

[mozes]

8 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

I am also considering this and the value of having a second tx-USBexp. Why not connect the HDD directly to the motherboard via SATA, you can still power it seperately/externaly with a LPS just use a SATA Data cable. I can see the benefit of connecting the tx-USBexp via PCIE but you also have a weak link, the USB socket on the HDD enclosure, plus the expense of a second tx. Any thoughts appreciated.

I already have a SSD connected to my motherboard via SATA, but I power it from the motherboard for simplicity. I used to have the HDD that hosts my music connected to my motherboard via SATA. It also had the OS, but the current setup sounds much better. I am still not 100% sure which is the best way as now I added the SATAII filter to the OS SSD, but I am sure that the tX is doing something there. 

I am also not sure if my motherboard has a second SATA socket.

[LTG2010]

41 minutes ago, mozes said:

I am also not sure if my motherboard has a second SATA socket.

Thanks, it looks like your motherboard has 1 SATA connection and the second one via the mini PCIE slot which is already taken up by the second tx-USBexp ie. a socket that is PCIE but also connect to the motherboard via SATA for m2 ssd's etc. So there does'nt appear to be a simple way for you to test, without taking out the OS SSD and loading it onto the HDD.

But I suppose you could play the same music file from both your OS SSD and your HDD and see if there's an audible difference.

[seeteeyou]

20 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

plus the expense of a second tx. Any thoughts appreciated.

 

If you don't wanna invest in a second tx, that's really up to you and end of the story.

 

20 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

but you also have a weak link, the USB socket on the HDD enclosure

Someone in Japan actually modified the system clock of this SATA to USB adapter and that particular move turned out to be even more effective than any other tweaks

 

http://blog.jspcaudio.net/?eid=276

 

However, almost all HDD docks and enclosures etc. have DC inputs so basically all power regulators inside them pretty much suck. That's why we might wanna get something like this instead

 

http://www.addonics.com/products/adsau3.php

https://www.conrad.com/ce/en/product/975128/GBIC----1x-USB-30-port-B-1x-SATA-socket-2-pin--------28554C127

 

 

SOtM SATA Filter II is still good to go, and then we could still supply power directly to that 15-pin SATA power connector without any power regulators whatsoever. Even the system clock could be modified by SOtM easily as it's located next to the USB connector.

[LTG2010]

2 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

If you don't wanna invest in a second tx, that's really up to you and end of the story.

The idea of investing in the second tx is to first make sure there will be an audible benefit.

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, mozes said:

I have a similar setup. A 2TB HDD sitting in an enclosure connected to LPS-1 powered tX-USBexp via USB3.0. The tX-USBexp provides clean power to the HDD via the USB 3.0 bus.

Agreed, that is effectively what I do here, except with a 4tb 3.5 inch hdd and enclosure requiring 12 volts as well.

 

You may remember, I also use an Optane boot drive in an M.2 NVME slot as a boot drive which gives a nice SQ improvement with Windows.

[mozes]

2 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

But I suppose you could play the same music file from both your OS SSD and your HDD and see if there's an audible difference.

That’s a good idea, will test it sometime

[mozes]

49 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Agreed, that is effectively what I do here, except with a 4tb 3.5 inch hdd and enclosure requiring 12 volts as well.

 

You may remember, I also use an Optane boot drive in an M.2 NVME slot as a boot drive which gives a nice SQ improvement with Windows.

How do you know which motherboard supports Optane drives?

[mozes]

2 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

 

If you don't wanna invest in a second tx, that's really up to you and end of the story.

 

Someone in Japan actually modified the system clock of this SATA to USB adapter and that particular move turned out to be even more effective than any other tweaks

 

http://blog.jspcaudio.net/?eid=276

 

However, almost all HDD docks and enclosures etc. have DC inputs so basically all power regulators inside them pretty much suck. That's why we might wanna get something like this instead

 

http://www.addonics.com/products/adsau3.php

https://www.conrad.com/ce/en/product/975128/GBIC----1x-USB-30-port-B-1x-SATA-socket-2-pin--------28554C127

 

 

SOtM SATA Filter II is still good to go, and then we could still supply power directly to that 15-pin SATA power connector without any power regulators whatsoever. Even the system clock could be modified by SOtM easily as it's located next to the USB connector.

So basically this accessory helps to avoid the DC converters and provide clean power directly to the HDD via the 15 pin SATA power. I am just making sure that I understood your point

[tims]

I have several smaller capacity ssd drives and my plan is to buy a 4 to 6 bay hub (with an external power input) and use these drives as storage for my music files. 

 

I don't have much knowledge about the best way to connect this external hub to my server.  Should I be looking for a hub that has a esata and USB3 output and (if possible) connect the hub directly to my motherboard using a esata to sata connector or would the SQ quality improvement be minimal over using the USB3 output?

 

Finally would a SOtM sata II filter be a good idea to fit externally between the hub and server?

 

Thanks

 

Tim

[Speed Racer]

4 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

 

If you don't wanna invest in a second tx, that's really up to you and end of the story.

 

 

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/does-your-studio-need-digital-master-clock

http://pinknoisemag.com/pink-papers/pink-paper-002

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoKqnBJN8iQ

[LTG2010]

2 hours ago, mozes said:

How do you know which motherboard supports Optane drives?

Your pcie lane needs to be 3x4, I think your motherboard uses the older v 1.1, also you are using up both slots with your USB cards. Also your bios needs to support uefi and booting from nvme.

I've sent off a Jetway nf 697 motherboard for modifications, hence my interest in the double USB configuration, my motherboard has spare SATA ports.