A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Cornan]

8 minutes ago, RickyV said:

It is indeed difficult to find/ buy one crystek 575-25  25 MHz (fs105 clock).

The one on eBay is 56 dollar! That is a bit expensive, i thought thay were 8 dollar or so.

You also need a good regulator module too. Darn it is getting expensive again.

 

Yeah, it's a fairly expensive experiment with a high risk of failure. Sounds like fun to me! ? I have had that Crystek CCHD-575 on my wishlist because I wanted to add it to my Regen Amber, but eventually bought the ISO Regen instead. Now with the battery powered Luckit BluWave Spdif to USB board post the IR plus LT3045 voltage regulators in series on most of my DC cables (not router, but it is coming up soon) the interest for improved word clocks in the USB chain have almost evaporated. 

 

[Cornan]

22 minutes ago, RickyV said:

 

 

[Jianan]

19 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

romaz did that mod himself, but please let us know if SOtM agrees to do it for you.

Hi @auricgoldfinger, sadly, sotm didn't agree to do the mod for other brands. I am still considering buying the sms 200ultra, another second-hand iso regen and do the mod by myself. I will update further progress here.

 

[Jianan]

On 2017/12/6 at 2:10 PM, Cornan said:

 

Just looking at the Crystek CCHD-575 data sheet the 25.000Hhz is not a standard frequency, which surely would make it very difficult to find...if not impossible. I get a lot of hits on Crystek 25.000Hhz oscillators though. 

 

*Standard Frequencies (MHz)
12.000
16.924400
22.579200
24.000
24.576
27.000
40.000
45.158400
48.000
49.152
50.000
54.000
80.000
100.000
125.000

 

 

 

Hi @Cornan, are you sure the CCHD 575-25 is exactly the 25MHz instead of 24.576?

 

Further troll down the posts. Got your guys points, CCHD575-25 25MHz seems indeed super difficult to find

 

[Cornan]

12 minutes ago, Jianan said:

 

Hi @Cornan, are you sure the CCHD 575-25 is exactly the 25MHz instead of 24.576?

 

Further troll down the posts. Got your guys points, CCHD575-25 25MHz seems indeed super difficult to find

 

 

Hi @Jianan! I am not at all sure which frequency that a network switch requires. It seems that @elan120 have checked out that 25.000Mhz is the best frequency to use, but I have´nt actually researched it myself. I can see a variaty of frequencies used for network devices and cannot tell what´s the optimal frequency to use for network devices due to lack of true insight. I cannot find CCHD575-25 either.

[RickyV]

The clock in the fs105 v3 is 25 Mhz

[Cornan]

2 minutes ago, RickyV said:

The clock in the fs105 v3 is 25 Mhz

 

Do you know if it is possible to use a 24.576Mhz clock instead of the 25.000Mhz, or do it have to be a 25.000Mhz clock? 

[Forehaven]

4 hours ago, RickyV said:

The clock in the fs105 v3 is 25 Mhz

vs. v2 Ricky?

[RickyV]

15 minutes ago, Forehaven said:

vs. v2 Ricky?

? I don't have a v2.

[RickyV]

i Will look at the datasheet when i get home from work. Raltek 8305nb.

 

 

[Forehaven]

23 minutes ago, RickyV said:

i Will look at the datasheet when i get home from work. Raltek 8305nb.

 

 

Thanks, just was wondering if there was a diff. in clocks b/w the models.

[elan120]

1 hour ago, Forehaven said:

Thanks, just was wondering if there was a diff. in clocks b/w the models.

For network, all clocks are 25.000MHz.

 

6 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

Do you know if it is possible to use a 24.576Mhz clock instead of the 25.000Mhz, or do it have to be a 25.000Mhz clock? 

Short answer is "no", using 24.576MHz clock will not work.

[austinpop]

The Ethernet signaling mechanism uses a “symbol rate” of 125 Mega Symbols/sec. 

 

The 25Mhz clock drives a PLL to derive the 125MHz rate needed for this to function.

 

Per JS: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=134&tab=comments#comment-709735

 

but Google will return a plethora of links about the symbol rate.

 

Bottom line: there is a functional reason for exactly the 25 and 24 MHz clocks needed for Ethernet and USB, which is integrally related to their nominal 1000 and 480 Mbps data rates.

 

[Cornan]

13 minutes ago, austinpop said:

The Ethernet signaling mechanism uses a “symbol rate” of 125 Mega Symbols/sec. 

 

The 25Mhz clock drives a PLL to derive the 125MHz rate needed for this to function.

 

Per JS: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=134&tab=comments#comment-709735

 

but Google will return a plethora of links about the symbol rate.

 

Bottom line: there is a functional reason for exactly the 25 and 24 MHz clocks needed for Ethernet and USB, which is integrally related to their nominal 1000 and 480 Mbps data rates.

 

 

I have Googled about world clock frequency ranges and I must admit that I am more confused now compared to when I started.  For example the Crystek CCHD-575 word clock oscillators that was mensioned earlier on this thread. Looking at it it seems to be optimal for USB devices. That´s fine because it do have a 24.000Mhz frequency. However, when I look at the Crystek CCPD-575 http://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/clock/CCPD-575.pdf it is specifically designed for broadband, ethernet, Gigabit ethernet etc but have only got the frequencies from 50.000Mhz to 156.250Mhz. I have just started to look into word clocks for ethernet purposes and are already tearing the hair off my head.  

[RickyV]

That is not the correct oscillator. This is the one.

http://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/clock/CCHD-575.pdf

And it has to be 25 MHz.

 

[Cornan]

41 minutes ago, RickyV said:

That is not the correct oscillator. This is the one.

http://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/clock/CCHD-575.pdf

And it has to be 25 MHz.

 

 

Yeah, I got that. I just shared my confusion while trying to understand the clock frequencies through Google. Even if 25Mhz CCHD-575 is the one it is made for USB and do not have 25Mhz as a standard frequency. On the other hand CCPD-575 is obviously made for Ethernet but still do not have 25Mhz as a standard frequency. To quote @lmitche. Clear as mud! ?

Anyway, I will continue to tear my hair until I get just why the 25Mhz frequency is the optimal choise for network switches? I'll probably get there balled-headed! ?

[RickyV]

Cornan,

25Mhz is not the optimal choise frequency for network. It is the necessay frequency the realtek rtl8305nb chip needs. It is not a choice. So Stop pulling your hear.

It has also something to do multipels of 25Mhz until you get a particular frequentie and bits/sec.

First things first getting the power supply clean with a lps and bypass the dc to dc converter. See picture

[Cornan]

14 minutes ago, RickyV said:

Cornan,

25Mhz is not the optimal choise frequency for network. It is the necessay frequency the realtek rtl8305nb chip needs. It is not a choice. So Stop pulling your hear.

It has also something to do multipels of 25Mhz until you get a particular frequentie and bits/sec.

First things first getting the power supply clean with a lps and bypass the dc to dc converter. See picture

 

Thanks, so it depends on the Realtek RTL8305NB Ethernet controller chip. Since I use the AQVOX switch-8 and not the Netgear. Could it be a different Ethernet controller chip requiring a different frequency clock oscillator depending on brand or are they all the same?

 

Clean power and bypassing DC to DC converter makes a lot of sense ofcourse. Did'nt see a picture though? ?

[RickyV]

Cornan ?????

I do not understand if you have the AQvox switch 8 there is probably nothing to be gained. It already has all Bells and whistles. My God it costs 400 euro’s or is it 800.

pic one page back

[Cornan]

5 minutes ago, RickyV said:

Cornan ?????

I do not understand if you have the AQvox switch 8 there is probably nothing to be gained. It already has all Bells and whistles. My God it costs 400 euro’s or is it 800

 

I am just trying to get a picture if there is something that could be improved by changing the word clock oscillator in the Aqvox switch-8. I am actually extremely happy with the Aqvox. However, I am considering the Aqvox SE upgrade, going down the word clock replacement path or some sort of spaghetti path. I am just gathering some knowledge to understand the odds! ?

 

Since I only listening to Tidal I am a bit intrigued to have some sort of Ethernet spagetti path with a word clock generator just controlling my three Ethernet devices (main router, TP-Link RE450 alt RE650 and Aqvox switch). Just trying to figure out if that is doable or if it is a good idea or not?

 

I am not that interested in the complete spagetti package for all my devices (one clock to rule them all). I have great experiences in isolating the Ethernet part of my system from the rest and do not want to add anything that connects the two. I have noticed that just about anything that I improve on the Ethernet side equals an upgrade. That's partly why my interest of word clocks is focused there.

 

I just know too little about word clocks right now to make the call. I am not pulling my hair anymore though! ?

[austinpop]

Just to set this in context, a few clarifications:

1. The term "word" clock, in my understanding, is used for the frequencies directly connected to the music's sample rate. This may just be convention, but when you say "word," most audio folk will think you're talking about 44.1 or 48 kHz, or multiples.
2. The 24 and 25 MHz frequencies typically used for USB, Ethernet, and motherboards, are usually referred to as system clocks. Hence the use of the term "sCLK" by SOtM. Although - it's not that simple, as the sCLK-EX board can generate (synthesize) both system and word clocks.

Most of the clock enhancements in this thread have been in the context of modifying switches, mobos, USB and Ethernet interfaces to accept an external clock supplied by an sCLK-EX board, optionally driven by a Mutec/Cybershaft reference clock.

 

The idea of replacing a fixed frequency system clock oscillator with another oscillator - like a Crystek - is not something we've seen attempted here. Although - this is exactly the approach that the ISO-Regen and UltraRendu have taken to realize the sonic benefits over their predecessors - the Regen and the mR.

 

All that said - intrepid DIYers are certainly welcome to try, and report their experiences!

[Jianan]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

Just to set this in context, a few clarifications:

1. The term "word" clock, in my understanding, is used for the frequencies directly connected to the music's sample rate. This may just be convention, but when you say "word," most audio folk will think you're talking about 44.1 or 48 kHz, or multiples.
2. The 24 and 25 MHz frequencies typically used for USB, Ethernet, and motherboards, are usually referred to as system clocks. Hence the use of the term "sCLK" by SOtM. Although - it's not that simple, as the sCLK-EX board can generate (synthesize) both system and word clocks.

Most of the clock enhancements in this thread have been in the context of modifying switches, mobos, USB and Ethernet interfaces to accept an external clock supplied by an sCLK-EX board, optionally driven by a Mutec/Cybershaft reference clock.

 

The idea of replacing a fixed frequency system clock oscillator with another oscillator - like a Crystek - is not something we've seen attempted here. Although - this is exactly the approach that the ISO-Regen and UltraRendu have taken to realize the sonic benefits over their predecessors - the Regen and the mR.

 

All that said - intrepid DIYers are certainly welcome to try, and report their experiences!

@austinpop Thank you for your useful info. I will try to DIY my Uptone IR and D-link switch. Both of them should be 25 MHz

[Cornan]

5 hours ago, austinpop said:

Just to set this in context, a few clarifications:

1. The term "word" clock, in my understanding, is used for the frequencies directly connected to the music's sample rate. This may just be convention, but when you say "word," most audio folk will think you're talking about 44.1 or 48 kHz, or multiples.
2. The 24 and 25 MHz frequencies typically used for USB, Ethernet, and motherboards, are usually referred to as system clocks. Hence the use of the term "sCLK" by SOtM. Although - it's not that simple, as the sCLK-EX board can generate (synthesize) both system and word clocks.

Most of the clock enhancements in this thread have been in the context of modifying switches, mobos, USB and Ethernet interfaces to accept an external clock supplied by an sCLK-EX board, optionally driven by a Mutec/Cybershaft reference clock.

 

The idea of replacing a fixed frequency system clock oscillator with another oscillator - like a Crystek - is not something we've seen attempted here. Although - this is exactly the approach that the ISO-Regen and UltraRendu have taken to realize the sonic benefits over their predecessors - the Regen and the mR.

 

All that said - intrepid DIYers are certainly welcome to try, and report their experiences!

 

Thanks for the clarification Rajiv!  

Do you have any experience in using the sCLK-EX between two devices only? In my head using a reference clock for the router and the Aqvox switch (skipping the wireless adapter TP-Link RE450) seems like a good idea. I have been looking at time code generators lately as well. These are ment for pictures & video, but I found this device while trying to understand what that was all about.

 

http://www.betso.eu/sbox-1n

 

BETSO_SBOX1N_easyofuse.mp4

 

 

It is a portable battery powered time code and word clock generator using TCXO crystal oscillators which are not that sensitive to changes in temperatures (which I tend to like very much when it comes to word clocks). According to many users it is a rock solid performer. The questions is if this really is a proper word clock generator that can be used for ethernet purposes if I just send my router and Aqvox switch to SOtM for a sCLK-EX mod? Do you know? Am I missing forrest among all the trees?  

BTW. How much is a SOtM sCLX-EX mod nowdays when the demand is high?

[mozes]

5 hours ago, Cornan said:

How much is a SOtM sCLX-EX mod nowdays when the demand is high?

Depends on what you want to do, the most expensive is to get the sCLK-EX board itself. The board has to sit in an enclosure. It can be inside a tXUSBultra, SMS-200 ultra or inside your own server. I suggest you send an email to May from SOTM. She is very helpful and will give you all the info you need.

[Cornan]

1 hour ago, mozes said:

Depends on what you want to do, the most expensive is to get the sCLK-EX board itself. The board has to sit in an enclosure. It can be inside a tXUSBultra, SMS-200 ultra or inside your own server. I suggest you send an email to May from SOTM. She is very helpful and will give you all the info you need.

 

Thanks Moussa! I will need to get a firm grip if I want to go down the clock path at all. If I do I will most certainly send May a pm and ask her opinion when I have gained a firm one myself. For the moment I am just interested in it for the ethernet part of my system, but I want the ethernet part of my system to continue to live in its own little isolated world (as much as possible atleast) without sharing noises to the rest of my system. Lately after some more reading/thinking I am actually starting to be a bit sceptical to include the Aqvox switch in the sCLK-EX at all since it is the last device that connectes to my audio gears. My router is communicating with the TP-Link RE450 (wireless adapter) through wifi. The way I see it now is that the clock generator should actually be controlling the router and the wireless adapter only,  optimizing the wireless transmission. Adding sCLK-EZs to these devices will in fact add a possible noise path through the clock ICs. Having a battery powered word clock generator will hopefully limit those noises to a minimum. I think I will actually send BETSO a pm and ask them if their device can be used for this purpose to begin with and in the meantime maybe ask May´s opinion about this path. I might be heading into deep water, but that´s the way I like it!  

 

BTW. I also found this little valuable word clock generator that seems to be possible to run off batteries (9v).

https://www.thomann.de/se/black_lion_audio_micro_clock_mk2.htm?ref=search_rslt_clock+generator_316203_1

 

 

Looks like a good starting point as well.