A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[ElviaCaprice]

9 hours ago, romaz said:

For those looking for a reasonably affordable alternative to upsampling with HQP, I suggest you give Hugo2 a try.  Combined with even an unmodified NUC and an inexpensive endpoint like the ISO Regen or better yet, a tX-USBultra, I suspect it will give even the very best HQPlayer setups a run for their money.  With the brief time I have had it, I am finding Hugo2 to be an excellent upsampling DAC and just like DAVE, it can directly drive high-efficiency speakers as well as headphones.  I cannot overstate just how wonderfully resolving and transparent Hugo2 directly driving my Voxativs or Omegas sounds.  Moreover, Hugo2 will combine with M-scaler to give you a full 1M taps, something that no other DAC except DAVE can currently provide and so as far as I am aware, when combined with M-scaler and when directly driving speakers, these are the 2 highest resolution and most transparent digital front ends in existence today regardless of price.

 

 

Glad you said it and not me.  I'll wait for a Hugo 2 desktop model, like 3Qute for an upgrade.  Would love to see a mini me M-scaler in a more affordable range, minus the CD transport.

[Lebouwsky]

7 hours ago, lmitche said:

Here it is, the longest post in the history of CA and 3/4 of it is marketing material from Chord.  Roy, you should know better.  I am disappointed.

To me, this is an inappropriate reaction to a post of some one who has contributed a lot to this forum and is always willing to help indiviuals, basing this on my own experience.

 

Your words also imply something which are based on a guess. You should know better.

[Kritpoon]

3 hours ago, afrancois said:

I received my 3 sheets of 3M AB5100SHF-210X297 today and used them around the sMS-200 ultra, MC3+ USB and even under some of my LPS-1’s with very good results.

I’m so satisfied that I immediately ordered extra 5 sheets. I still got a lot of equipment that could potentially benefit from this miracle paper. DAC’s, power amplifiers and headphone amplifier.

Perhaps not everybody will benefit as much as I do. Most of my equipment is in the garage and it seems a rather noisy environment.
 

 

Thank you for the report. Did you put the sheets inside or side the equipment case?

[sig8]

General question on EMI sheets;

 

Can it just be just placed on top of say a DAC, or maybe taped with a painters masking tape on top and bottom? It should do its job. I do not really want to open and glue this inside, because my DAC does not have any vents and do not know what will happen to this sheet inside with heat.

 

 

 

[Johnseye]

19 minutes ago, sig8 said:

General question on EMI sheets;

 

Can it just be just placed on top of say a DAC, or maybe taped with a painters masking tape on top and bottom? It should do its job. I do not really want to open and glue this inside, because my DAC does not have any vents and do not know what will happen to this sheet inside with heat.

 

 

 

 

My dac has no vents either.  The sheet has an adhesive.  I cut pieces and stuck them on top of each chip of the dac's board.  I cut pieces to fit the sides and cover of the dac chassis.  At first the sides and top didn't stick, but that's because the chassis is powder coated.  With a lot more pressure they finally stuck, but I could peal the sheet pieces off very easily.  You could also tape them inside the dac.  The tape will need to be pretty strong as the sheet has some weight to it, depending on the size of your cuts.  Once you try it out with tape, you may want to peal the adhesive or glue it in more permanently if you like what it provides.

[Johnseye]

1 hour ago, Kritpoon said:

 

Thank you for the report. Did you put the sheets inside or side the equipment case?

 

Look at my earlier posts.  Attach them inside.  The idea is that the EMI/RF is prevented from bouncing around inside the case as well as shielding the outside.

[Always.Learning]

3 hours ago, limniscate said:

Have you actually heard the DAVE with the Blu mk.2?  I didn't really think the DAVE was that good, but the DAVE with the Blu mk.2 is pretty astounding.

I heard a direct A/B of DAVE with and without Blu2 at RMAF. I have to agree with Eric, the differences were obvious and musically significant. An M Scaler is probably in my future (but not near future!).

 

I also heard a direct A/B of the SOtM master clock in and out of a nice system with Magico speakers in the SOtM room. While I think the master clock could make a nice difference, the differences were nowhere near as profound as the differences I heard with the Blu2. Just my two cents. 

[Always.Learning]

For those of you waiting for or contemplating a Paul Hynes power supply, I have an update on my saga. I finally received an SR5DR48 that was custom built for my Crayon phono stage and replaced an SMPS external power supply. The six-month waiting period and problems communicating with Paul are detailed on a separate thread, but suffice it to say that this story has a happy ending.

 

The Hynes supply has made a profound difference in my LP playback. I was expecting to hear certain improvements that I've heard when upgrading power in other areas, such as new dedicated circuits or better power cords. Those areas are dynamics, bass response, and transient fidelity. Well, I easily checked all of those boxes, especially bass quality and quantity. But what surprised me was a very notable increase in solidity or tonal density of the music. The music is simply more corporeal, and therefore more engaging. This supply cost me over $1200, but when added to my $6000+ phono stage, I have to say it is a very, very good investment. 

 

For those waiting for Paul to build and ship your supply, your patience will be rewarded. 

 

 

[ElviaCaprice]

The only issue with an m-scaler is that it's PCM only.   But, I guess Chord converts all DSD to PCM in the DAC anyways.  Might as well do the conversion on the fly if the m-scaler has that good of an SQ impact.

[romaz]

5 hours ago, unbalanced output said:

I totally agree that DSD sounds flat... on the Mojo. In reality, it sounds very very similar if not the same as PCM. Switch to a native DSD DAC like the Lampizator and two or three new dimensions immediately jump from the speakers. 

 

You are confusing air with depth.  As I've stated, DSD has a very expansive sound but accurate spatial localization is not as good as PCM.  This means a piano that is 5 feet away actually sounds like its 5 feet away.  I have done these careful listening tests with a variety of DACs using both DSD and PCM rips from an analog master and PCM is better.  With even a simple Mojo, if a recording is flat (as most studio recordings are), then it will sound flat and when there is depth in the recording, it will portray it much more faithfully.

 

I enjoy the Lampizators very much.  They premiered their new flagship at RMAF this past weekend and it was one of the few rooms playing digital that did not sound fatiguing.  Yes, you get that dimensionality that DSD provides but this also comes from the Lampi's tube stage.  There are other ways to create dimension, such as adding reverb effects via DSP but then everything sounds deep and unnaturally dimensional, including close-mic'd studio recordings.

 

There are those that look for their DACs to make everything sound pleasing and this can be useful to cover up for harsh electronics or to make bad recordings sound better but this often comes at a compromise of resolution and transparency.  If this is your cup of tea, that's fine.  What I have found is that as I have improved my source with better power supplies, better clocks, better cabling, etc., I no longer find it necessary to cover anything up.  At this point, my only priority is truth and accuracy.

[romaz]

7 hours ago, lmitche said:

Here it is, the longest post in the history of CA and 3/4 of it is marketing material from Chord.  Roy, you should know better.  I am disappointed.

 

Hi Larry,

 

During my time on this thread and in forums in general, I have always attempted to be honest and transparent in the reporting of my observations while also being fair and balanced with regards to my opinions and preferences.  I recognize that as opinions are expressed, there will always be those who agree and disagree but I have always tried to be respectful of those who have preferences that are different from my own.  Having communicated through PMs with you on several occasions, you also know my personal policy to never publicly disparage a manufacturer's product even if I prefer a competing product.  With regards to my last post, if it has come across that I was disparaging HQPlayer or dCS, then I apologize.  Having benefited greatly from many of your posts over the years, I have no doubt whatsoever that you have a wonderful setup that has been well thought out and carefully put together, one that I'm sure I would enjoy immensely and so if I came across as dismissive of your approach, I apologize.  The last thing I wanted my last post here on CA to be was divisive or offensive, especially to someone like you whom I admire and respect greatly.  

 

With regards to dCS, they make fine products.  Despite what I said, prior to the release of Hugo2, the Vivaldi was my 2nd favorite DAC behind the DAVE.  I have not heard a DAC image better than the Vivaldi, better even than the DAVE.  I have stated my preferences for Rob's DACs and I have provided my reasons why but they don't take away from the many things that dCS DACs do well.  

 

With regards to HQPlayer, as I own 2 copies of this software product for both Mac and PC, I feel I can speak to its capabilities from the standpoint of a user.  I respect what it does and what it offers those who have DACs that benefit from them.  If I had a point with my post, it is that I don't believe Chord DACs are the best candidates for upsampling with HQPlayer.  Of course, people will wonder why and so that was the motivation for including those posts from Rob Watts.  As you know, I was very impressed with my experience with the Sound Galleries SGM 2015 while in Munich in May although Ed Hsu even admitted that the Chord DAVE was not the ideal pairing for their HQPlayer-based server.  Once again, this doesn't take away from the great options that HQPlayer provides for those who can benefit and based on its reasonable asking price, this should be viewed as a good value.

 

With regards to marketing material from Chord, those quotes I provided are not from Chord nor were they meant to be marketing material.  I have no affiliation with Chord, whatsoever.  Those missives were made by Rob Watts who is independent of Chord and he speaks only for himself.  As you and others have noticed, he speaks in very technical terms and rather than try and convey the technology behind Rob's DACs which I undoubtedly would misrepresent, I have found it easier to quote him and the reason I did so was there appeared to be confusion about how his DACs work.  If you have perceived that I have bias towards Chord's products, you would be correct but more accurately, I have bias towards Rob Watts' designs -- they just speak to me in the same way that HQPlayer speaks to you.  But I do wish to make it clear that this has nothing to do with any financial relationship I might have with him or with Chord as none exists.  I have often reached out to the designers of the products I admire and this would include such individuals as Vincent Brient of TotalDac, Brian Zolner of Bricasti and of course, Paul Hynes.  Perhaps I pursue these relationships to a deeper level than most but I have always been this way and so if I seem overly effusive of my praise for an individual's products that I admire, it is purely as an enthusiast.

 

Hopefully, you'll judge me by my body of posts and not solely by that last post.  Once again, much respect.  Signing off for good this time.

[lmitche]

Hi Roy,

 

In the big scheme of things I am sorry to waste your time on my post. You have contributed so much original thinking and many useful suggestions that it just struck me as odd to see you quote another author so extensively, especially one with such a clear bias. I am always interested in your personal observations and empirical experience.

 

Anyway my apologies and all the best,

 

Larry

 

 

[afrancois]

10 hours ago, Kritpoon said:

 

Thank you for the report. Did you put the sheets inside or side the equipment case?

At this moment the sheets are on the outside of the sMS and the MC3+ USB and it's already doing a great job. I might change this in the near future. The next batch of 5 sheets will be for the DAC and amplifiers and those will be on the inside of the cabinet. Perhaps if there are still some sheets left, I will put them under the DAC. I don't want to remove the motherboards to put 3M underneath. 

[yellowblue]

It´s not easy to get the 3M sheets in Europe. Recommendations?

[AmusedToD]

@romaz, I am familiar with Chord sound, I used to own a Mojo, heard the Hugo and Hugo 2 and had the opportunity to listen to Dave in Munich (along with some big fat Chord mono blocks and probably an upsampling cd transport, but I can’t really remember). I think they were connected to very expensive German speakers by Fischer & Fischer. What can I say? I didn’t like the sound, it was uninspiring, clinical and even mechanical in a way. Was it the room, or the lack of synergy or the cables perhaps? I don’t know and can’t tell, but there were numerous rooms at the show that sounded much much better than the Chord room and all the people that were with me agreed with that observation  (I was blown away in the TAD room, and if you recall when we met at the SOtM stand - I told you I fell in love with TAD speakers, which eventually resulted in me buying a pair of TAD Micro Evolution 1’s some 10 days ago).

 

So I think it comes down to personal listening preferences. While probably the best in the world for headphones, I don’t think Dave can play in the majors with a full blown Vivaldi stack connected to a pair of high end speakers. Hey, even Simaudio Moon DACs and TotalDacs sounded better at the show (provided they were properly set up with matching gear). The Simaudio 780D connected to Simaudio 888 mono blocks and Wilson Alexx speakers was absolutely outstanding, but we talking about a system that costs well over $250,000.

 

So so for me, the best digital front end (bar none) in the audio world today is dCS and I have tremendous respect for what they do as they were the pioneers in many areas. 

[jventer]

On 10/6/2017 at 1:48 AM, afrancois said:

What I have noticed as my system got better (less jitter) is that highly compressed music became listenable. Adele’s CD's are highly compressed and her voice has been digitally manipulated to emphasize the typical Adele sound and this at a point that it has become ridiculous on Adele 25.

Havent got 25, but do have 21 and man it is harsh - off topic, but I have a live show CD/dvd/bluray/something and on there she sounds absolutely fantastic.

[Cooler]

15 hours ago, afrancois said:

I received my 3 sheets of 3M AB5100SHF-210X297 today and used them around the sMS-200 ultra, MC3+ USB and even under some of my LPS-1’s with very good results.

I’m so satisfied that I immediately ordered extra 5 sheets. I still got a lot of equipment that could potentially benefit from this miracle paper. DAC’s, power amplifiers and headphone amplifier.

Perhaps not everybody will benefit as much as I do. Most of my equipment is in the garage and it seems a rather noisy environment.
 

Can you provide some photos, how it looks like?

[afrancois]

1 hour ago, yellowblue said:

It´s not easy to get the 3M sheets in Europe. Recommendations?

I've got mine here: https://www.digikey.be/product-detail/en/3m/AB5100SHF-210X297/3M155949-ND/5823559

 

Shipping is from the US, but it is fast. However be prepared to pay extra customs charges. For me, it was 36 euros on an amount of 150 euros.

[tapatrick]

7 hours ago, afrancois said:

I've got mine here: https://www.digikey.be/product-detail/en/3m/AB5100SHF-210X297/3M155949-ND/5823559

 

Shipping is from the US, but it is fast. However be prepared to pay extra customs charges. For me, it was 36 euros on an amount of 150 euros.

I’ve ordered 2 sheets and other components from Digikey US to UK and arrived both times in 2 days without any extra customs charges. 

[guillaume31]

For folks in Europe, no need to order from the US, you can find the 3M sheets on Mouser (I'm not sure where they are sent from but all taxes are inclusive)

 

When installing pieces of this sheet onto a chip, is it best to have it cover the chip only or also its "legs" ?

 

Thanks

[unbalanced output]

17 hours ago, romaz said:

 

You are confusing air with depth.  As I've stated, DSD has a very expansive sound but accurate spatial localization is not as good as PCM.  This means a piano that is 5 feet away actually sounds like its 5 feet away.  I have done these careful listening tests with a variety of DACs using both DSD and PCM rips from an analog master and PCM is better.  With even a simple Mojo, if a recording is flat (as most studio recordings are), then it will sound flat and when there is depth in the recording, it will portray it much more faithfully.

 

I enjoy the Lampizators very much.  They premiered their new flagship at RMAF this past weekend and it was one of the few rooms playing digital that did not sound fatiguing.  Yes, you get that dimensionality that DSD provides but this also comes from the Lampi's tube stage.  There are other ways to create dimension, such as adding reverb effects via DSP but then everything sounds deep and unnaturally dimensional, including close-mic'd studio recordings.

 

There are those that look for their DACs to make everything sound pleasing and this can be useful to cover up for harsh electronics or to make bad recordings sound better but this often comes at a compromise of resolution and transparency.  If this is your cup of tea, that's fine.  What I have found is that as I have improved my source with better power supplies, better clocks, better cabling, etc., I no longer find it necessary to cover anything up.  At this point, my only priority is truth and accuracy.

 

Hi Romaz, I'm not confusing depth with airiness. I do really mean that with the Mojo with DSD the sound seems to be coming from a single plane close to the speakers an not from a musician located somewhere in front of you. Playing the same track in PCM or DSD the Mojo sounds very similar, and not too different from the Atlantic in PCM actually. However, the Lampi in DSD is a completely different that I could describe as taking a big screen off the front of the speakers. It's something completely different and cannot be due to do with the output stage - this is the same regardless of PCM or DSD. Actually I don't think that the Lampi has this property of making everything sound pleasant - on the contrary, bad recordings never sounded so bad and good recordings never sounded so good to my ears. I can believe that the tube rectified versions may colour the sound, however I don't have a rectified PS on mine. 

 

I'm working on some comparisons between different formats and DACs on the Lampi and the Mojo. Unfortunately time is very scarce for me these days, however I have some interesting (and somewhat) results that I'm planning to share here at CA when I have time, but I'm not quite done yet. 

[afrancois]

1 hour ago, tapatrick said:

I’ve ordered 2 sheets and other components from Digikey US to UK and arrived both times in 2 days without any extra customs charges. 

Middle-class people in Belgium pay the highest taxes in the world. Even the cheapest things you buy abroad you pay taxes on.

[afrancois]

34 minutes ago, guillaume31 said:

For folks in Europe, no need to order from the US, you can find the 3M sheets on Mouser (I'm not sure where they are sent from but all taxes are inclusive)

 

When installing pieces of this sheet onto a chip, is it best to have it cover the chip only or also its "legs" ?

 

Thanks

You're right, I should have ordered at Mouser. Free shipping and taxes included.

[Johnseye]

48 minutes ago, guillaume31 said:

For folks in Europe, no need to order from the US, you can find the 3M sheets on Mouser (I'm not sure where they are sent from but all taxes are inclusive)

 

When installing pieces of this sheet onto a chip, is it best to have it cover the chip only or also its "legs" ?

 

Thanks

 

I wouldn't have any of the sheet touch the legs.  When you cut to fit the chips you can go over I think.  I did and haven't experienced any issue.  I didn't press down on the sheet pieces over the legs, but do expect it to sag and touch them over time.  The metallic pieces inside the sheet are supposed to be covered by a poly so only the edges which get cut will expose metal.  You can tape the edges if you have the inclination.

[Quadman]

Yes what Johnseye said, when you cut the 3M sheets there are exposed metal particles that can touch active circuits and cause a mess you don't want to deal with, best to just cut pieces to the body size and don't go over gravity always works and down the road it could short out very close together SMD legs.

 

Also damping some of these SMD chips, clocks etc can be very beneficial, I use a product from EAR that has a aluminum sheet on top of the damping material, it called something like EAR SD40al or similar.  Michael Percy carries it in the US.  This can have very positive effects on Dac's and PC's.