A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Darryl R]

51 minutes ago, User471 said:

 

I have a linux based roonserver and a separate linux based endpoint both connected via the same Netgear unmanaged switch (with an iFi PSU)

 

All built and setup by me, so I have some linux skills ? (mostly being able to Google a solution and use SSH, to be honest)

 

So I'm going to be thick here  .... apologies

 

What is being advocated here is to have x2 ethernet connections to my server - one direct to the switch; one direct to my endpoint

 

Then I install bridge-utils (I'm on Debian 9), edit /etc/network/interfaces and .... hey presto !?!?

 

 

Hi,

 

I'm working with my home-built Ubuntu server and was wondering if you knew how file packets were routed with a bridge in place and the renderer directly connected to the server.  Thanks.

 

EDIT: just reread your post and saw you're using Roon; I'm not.  Not often I get a chance to converse with another Linux user.

[User471]

12 minutes ago, Darryl R said:

 

Hi,

 

I'm working with an Ubuntu server and was wondering if you knew how the the file packets were routed with the bridge in place and the renderer directly connected to the server.  Thanks.

 

My understanding, imperfect as it is, is as follows

 

With x2 bridged NICs in the server, locally stored music is routed directly to the endpoint (bypasses switch) but streamed music from WWW (eg: Tidal) comes via the (?dodgy) switch first before the server routes it to the endpoint

 

Hence if (big if) this all works one should be able to discern a difference between the exact same track that's played locally versus one that is streamed from the WWW (and hence goes via the switch on its way to the

endpoint)

 

I'd be interested if anyone has done that test

 

(Happy to be corrected/educated by one of the network pros out there ?)

[Darryl R]

9 minutes ago, User471 said:

 

My understanding, imperfect as it is, is as follows

 

With x2 bridged NICs in the server, locally stored music is routed directly to the endpoint (bypasses switch) but streamed music from WWW (eg: Tidal) comes via the (?dodgy) switch first before the server routes it to the endpoint

 

Hence if (big if) this all works one should be able to discern a difference between the exact same track that's played locally versus one that is streamed from the WWW (and hence goes via the switch on its way to the

endpoint)

 

I'd be interested if anyone has done that test

 

(Happy to be corrected/educated by one of the network pros out there ?)

 

This is what I'd hoped for, which is the best case scenario.  Like you, I'm using my own server (now Ubuntu 18) with a JCAT Net card between the server and the dCS NBR (renderer), but I began to doubt this flow when experiencing a slight delay with medium to larger sized files.  May I ask the source of your understanding?  The last article I found did say the bridge functioned at Layer 2, which is consistent with what you've said.

[User471]

20 minutes ago, Darryl R said:

 

This is what I'd hoped for, which is the best case scenario.  Like you, I'm using my own server (now Ubuntu 18) with a JCAT Net card between the server and the dCS NBR (renderer), but I began to doubt this flow when experiencing a slight delay with medium to larger sized files.  May I ask the source of your understanding?  The last article I found did say the bridge functioned at Layer 2, which is consistent with what you've said.

 

I only know what I've read here and on similar threads on Roon Community, Audiogon etc

 

Assuming it does work - and various posters have got it to work - I can't logically think of any other way it could work

 

As I said before, I'm just waiting for the various network engineers to stop chuckling and correct me now ??

[Darryl R]

Thank you.  Don't hold your breath for the network engineers.  I've combed the web for days looking for definitive information on this and found very little.  Btw, one article I found said that the bridge is merely a pass-thru, to share the connection.

[Dutch]

Yes it’s a software bridge, bridging two different network segments over L2. Hosts on both segments need to be in the same layer 3 IP network.

 

I’ve always found the bridging solution buggy and had performance issues as well so I’ve setup a routed approach which I believe accomplishes the same in a more stable and better performing way.

 

On my dual NIC server I’ve installed a lightweight DHCP server for the SMS-200 when one could not yet set a fixed IP. That binded to the second NIC.

 

In the central router of my network I’ve added a static route for the second subnet (192.168.2.0/24) in my network. This network ‘lives’ behind the 2nd NIC in my server. The gateway for this subnet is the primary interface of the server in subnet 192.168.1.0/24.

 

For this to work for applications not running on the server (e.g. The Roon Remote) the server needs to have IP forwarding enabled to transfer traffic between the NIC’s. This requires one simple registry change. See for example http://www.itgeared.com/articles/1066-how-to-enable-ip-forwarding-on-windows/ (yes this works on 2012 R2 too)

 

Since the second interface with the second subnet is local to the server it knows where to route the traffic to. Default gateway on the server is the central router so it also knows the ‘way back’ to hosts on the 1st subnet.

 

This method does not work for software that relies on broadcast traffic (e.g. For mDNS) like HQPlayer and Airplay. For that to work hosts need to be in the same broadcast domain, so same L2 network. For Roon, which does not need that, it works great.

 

With all this NUC/AL experimentation I’ll need to look into how to do this on Linux.

[Dutch]

17 minutes ago, Darryl R said:

Thank you.  Don't hold your breath for the network engineers.  I've combed the web for days looking for definitive information on this and found very little.  Btw, one article I found said that the bridge is merely a pass-thru, to share the connection.

 

Did you check Wikipedia?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridging_(networking)

 

It’s the exact same principle solved in software (Windows/Linux)

 

Also see: https://www.dell.com/support/article/nl/nl/nldhs1/sln266178/windows-networking-proper-use-of-a-network-bridge?lang=en for use cases, and when not to use.

[Darryl R]

14 minutes ago, Dutch said:

Yes it’s a software bridge, bridging two different network segments over L2. Hosts on both segments need to be in the same layer 3 IP network.

 

I’ve always found the bridging solution buggy and had performance issues as well so I’ve setup a routed approach which I believe accomplishes the same in a more stable and better performing way.

 

On my dual NIC server I’ve installed a lightweight DHCP server for the SMS-200 when one could not yet set a fixed IP. That binded to the second NIC.

 

In the central router of my network I’ve added a static route for the second subnet (192.168.2.0/24) in my network. This network ‘lives’ behind the 2nd NIC in my server. The gateway for this subnet is the primary interface of the server in subnet 192.168.1.0/24.

 

For this to work for applications not running on the server (e.g. The Roon Remote) the server needs to have IP forwarding enabled to transfer traffic between the NIC’s. This requires one simple registry change. See for example http://www.itgeared.com/articles/1066-how-to-enable-ip-forwarding-on-windows/ (yes this works on 2012 R2 too)

 

Since the second interface with the second subnet is local to the server it knows where to route the traffic to. Default gateway on the server is the central router so it also knows the ‘way back’ to hosts on the 1st subnet.

 

This method does not work for software that relies on broadcast traffic (e.g. For mDNS) like HQPlayer and Airplay. For Roon it works great.

 

With all this NUC/AL experimentation I’ll need to look into how to do this on Linux.

 

I'd be interested in what you find for Linux.  One of the reasons I switched was because bridging in Windows was such a pain.  In Ubuntu, I just use the connection editor and it's done with a few clicks and a restart (easy in Mac too).  Ubuntu 18 has a minimal install option, and I only add "Vino" to admin from my main Windows machine with VNC.

[Dutch]

2 minutes ago, Darryl R said:

 

I'd be interested in what you find for Linux.  One of the reasons I switched was because bridging in Windows was such a pain.  In Ubuntu, I just use the connection editor and it's done with a few clicks and a restart (easy in Mac too).  Ubuntu 18 has a minimal install option, and add only add "Vino" to control the whole thing from my main Windows machine with VNC.

 

Well personally I’d like to stay away from bridging so I just need to figure out how to enable the equivalent of IP routing between two separate NICs in Linux. Haven’t searched for this yet, perhaps it’s just as easy.

[User471]

https://serverfault.com/questions/453254/routing-between-two-networks-on-linux

[Dutch]

11 minutes ago, User471 said:

https://serverfault.com/questions/453254/routing-between-two-networks-on-linux

 

Thanks, that indeed should do it!

[greenleo]

17 hours ago, Bricki said:

Yes my NUC7CJYH (roon bridge) is connected directly to my chord mojo by a curious usb with JSSG 360. 

 

I find it hard to put a number on it and I'm sure everyones system is different. However, from my experience with roon I would say that ignoring everything before the end point is a big mistake, your system will be hamstrung. I have made many changes before my endpoint and each one has been audible. Good Ethernet cables are essential and good power supplies are essential. I also have every device and power supply on my network treated with vibration isolation on the top and bottom of each chassis, over an entire system the difference is very significant. 

 

Things might change when the EtherRegen is released and perhaps the system before the EtherRegen won't matter as much or even at all. But as my system is right now, every part of it contributes to the sound (even the router and how it is powered). 

 

So in my case, my roon server matters a lot and can contribute significantly to the sound ? ??

Thank you for the reply.  For curiosity, have you thought about using  a better DAC?  

[Bricki]

3 hours ago, greenleo said:

Thank you for the reply.  For curiosity, have you thought about using  a better DAC?  

Of course there are better dacs than a mojo but I would rather spend my money to improve things upstream because that is where I believe the more significant bottle necks are. 

 

@austinpop may have an opinion about the relative benefits of improving the dac vs improving everything before the dac??

 

He has had a lot of recent experience with doing exactly that, so he may be able to chime in here. 

[asdf1000]

41 minutes ago, Bricki said:

Of course there are better dacs than a mojo but I would rather spend my money to improve things upstream because that is where I believe the more significant bottle necks are. 

 

I've had the Mojo. In my experiences (not expertise), it's USB input is much more sensitive to upstream changes than say, it's bigger brother the Hugo2...

 

With Hugo2, Rob Watts added a lot of focus on RF filtering on the USB input, something which Mojo only has on it's power (microUSB) input, not on the USB (data) input... and it helped Hugo2 (and Qutest) a lot...

 

Hugo2 is a little more sensitive to upstream changes than it's biggest brother, Dave... and Dave is not insensitive to upstream changes as romaz and others will tell you too...

 

Mojo to Hugo2 is a big improvement though (to my ears). Based on that, I would easily recommend putting more money to upgrading to Hugo2/Qutest before some of these tweaks that aren't cheap... initially anyway. The fun in tweaking and tinkering will always be there - we all enjoy it to different extents.

 

Of course if you love Mojo, ignore all the above. This is just a hobby after all, nothing life and death.

 

All the above is to my ears and experiences, not any expertise... and only talking about USB input...

 

 

[Bricki]

8 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

I've had the Mojo. In my experiences (not expertise), it's USB input is much more sensitive to upstream changes than say, it's bigger brother the Hugo2...

 

With Hugo2, Rob Watts added a lot of focus on RF filtering on the USB input, something which Mojo only has on it's power (microUSB) input, not on the USB (data) input... and it helped a lot...

 

Hugo2 is a little more sensitive to upstream changes than it's biggest brother, Dave... and Dave is not insensitive to upstream changes as romaz and others will tell you too...

 

Mojo to Hugo2 is a big improvement though (to my ears).

 

All the above is to my ears and experiences, not any expertise... and only talking about USB input...

 

 

Interesting, I didn't know about the extra filtering on the Hugo 2 usb. 

 

Unfortunately, the Hugo 2, for me, is well outside my budget. Here in Australia it is AU$3,700... For sure I would get one if I could. For now I will have to be content with spending smaller amounts on other improvements... My pennies are being saved for the EtherRegen and hopefully it will fall within my affordable range ?

[asdf1000]

48 minutes ago, Bricki said:

Interesting, I didn't know about the extra filtering on the Hugo 2 usb. 

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-hugo-2-the-official-thread.831345/page-568#post-13795767

 

and

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-hugo-2-the-official-thread.831345/page-568#post-13797577

 

and

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-hugo-2-the-official-thread.831345/page-970#post-14539500

 

and 

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-hugo-2-the-official-thread.831345/page-611#post-13888314

 

 

 

[Middy]

I part exchanged my Mytek Brooklyn for a Qutest and enjoyed the difference in SQ. Even with the big difference in functionality and a remote..

Whats feeding it and how.. has been a suprising journey....please read above 2 million posts...?

[sunny_time_99]

15 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

....

A123 LiFePO4 batteries are well known for their quality, that's why Ian Canada's latest project might do the trick when we're powering multiple units of NUC

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/327105-develop-ultra-capacitor-power-supply-lifepo4-battery-power-supply-31.html#post5623486

 

Hi, 

for my opinion, don´t expect too much from Ultracaps and LiFePO4. We allready use that since 2014. At first i like the idea only to listen Music out of a big cap without beeing connected to the wall. But in a direct comperision the ultracaps and the LiFePO4 were only second place behind a good regulated psu. I have tried a lot of battery/Lipo/LiFePo4/Ultracaps up to 3000F cells  during the last 25 years of Hifi - i was never satisfied. The same with  lt3045 Regulators. i really dont understand the Hype. Its a low ripple, ok, but the soundquality is only midclass. Everytime, when i use them the Sound seems to be thin for my ears. 

 

Kind regards

 

Sunny

[RickyV]

3 hours ago, sunny_time_99 said:

Hi, 

for my opinion, don´t expect too much from Ultracaps and LiFePO4. We allready use that since 2014. At first i like the idea only to listen Music out of a big cap without beeing connected to the wall. But in a direct comperision the ultracaps and the LiFePO4 were only second place behind a good regulated psu. I have tried a lot of battery/Lipo/LiFePo4/Ultracaps up to 3000F cells  during the last 25 years of Hifi - i was never satisfied. The same with  lt3045 Regulators. i really dont understand the Hype. Its a low ripple, ok, but the soundquality is only midclass. Everytime, when i use them the Sound seems to be thin for my ears. 

 

Kind regards

 

Sunny

 

Okay, so what is a good PSU (DIY)?

SR7 are too expensive.

[LTG2010]

20 hours ago, mikicasellas said:

CORSAIR Vengeance Performance SO-DIMM DDR4 2400 (PC4 19200) CAS Latency 16

Very good with NUC7C/P

[LTG2010]

6 hours ago, sunny_time_99 said:

The same with  lt3045 Regulators

In general yes with a lot of the DIY offerings, but they work very well in LPS 1.2.

[sunny_time_99]

5 hours ago, RickyV said:

 

Okay, so what is a good PSU (DIY)?

SR7 are too expensive.

the SR7 must be that expensive, like other must have that price tag too. it depends of the amount of possible sellings...the developement costs etc.... i think i dont need to explain it. it has def. a good price value. but using it is not what i call diy. that means find our own way - not buy something and put two cable together ?

as i start my way to audio heaven (will never end) i use diffeent linear power supplies, and start to make my own comparison. that takes years for me and more than 40 differend circuits until i found my personal favorite for my personal taste. it must be scalable, flexible and should work very fine in digital an analog parts. of course its over engeneered, but it fits everywere. all that pus units left a small part in my actual favorite design. since the end of 2016 i am working with the mosfet-rectifier and lt4320. I asked Vasilis Tounas from Ideon to draw it in eagle -i am to stupid for that- since my first dac we became one kind of oldfashiones letter-friendship - not uninteresting for both sides, i think.

look, i need for a complete dac, streamer, router, switch-setup with server/client solution  about 15-20 pcs of supreme power supplies on same level like the JS-2 or SR 4. in positive and negative for e.g. the op-amp. this is overkill, i know - but i can´t .... i must ... you know its a hobby... religion... Count the amount of money for such a setup. that´s my reason for diy.

such a universal power supply should have: a dc trap before the transformator, a good transformer, a common noise choke behind becoz the lt4320 reacts very sensetive on cm-noise, the lt4320 with extreme low resistant mosfets, a differential mode choke like JS use it in his older designs for the squeezebox and the JS-2 (sometimes i use normal speaker coils instead of the big hammonds), fast and good sounding caps like the Nichicon muse, a 780x -style regulator like belleson super reg, daxa/newclassd uwb2/schellarz audio reg or the sparkos labs reg and a hand full of silmic 2. (i like the combination of muse before the reg and silmic II behind - thats a kind of personal taste). wen you want a resistor to give the transients a place to go and a a small input/output 0,1-0,3uF Wima Foil. Thats it. you can build that from scratch in about 40 minutes...due to the fact i got some friends, who want it to...i have pcb´s now.

you can ask me if you need the schematic. but its so easy. on the pictures the choke is missing.

 

beware of all chinese boards. often they use fake parts, wrong designs, old parts - relabled. buy two - get 2 different - and different sounding. don´t buy lt1083-85 regulator designs in the internet - 99,5% are fake - on ebay 100%. beware they use other regs that can only deliver 1-1.5A.

regards sunny

[sunny_time_99]

15 hours ago, Bricki said:

Of course there are better dacs than a mojo but I would rather spend my money to improve things upstream because that is where I believe the more significant bottle necks are. 

 

@austinpop may have an opinion about the relative benefits of improving the dac vs improving everything before the dac??

 

He has had a lot of recent experience with doing exactly that, so he may be able to chime in here. 

thats my opinion too. the last years i spend a lot time to build dac´s better and better. but in the last months we put more focus on the streamer itself. and later on server/client typol. if the frontend is state of the art - its not a big difference if i change froim my actual 9038pro design back to my beloved 14bit tpa1540. The difference - powered with the same supreme psu units - is in the same range if you change a good usb cable into a 1euro-came with the printer usbcable.

the change of sq was bigger from a futro with daphile to 2 futro with daphile in server/client mode. and if you need to have a look on the price tag... its much cheaper than spending a lot money for a new dac. better save the money an spend it on the upstream. if your ready with that...and the wallet is still full, try to update your creapy powersupply of your old dac... change the clock ... the op-amps end so on. you will learn a lot and have more fun.

 

regards

sunny

[RickyV]

2 hours ago, sunny_time_99 said:

the SR7 must be that expensive, like other must have that price tag too. it depends of the amount of possible sellings...the developement costs etc.... i think i dont need to explain it. it has def. a good price value. but using it is not what i call diy. that means find our own way - not buy something and put two cable together ?

as i start my way to audio heaven (will never end) i use diffeent linear power supplies, and start to make my own comparison. that takes years for me and more than 40 differend circuits until i found my personal favorite for my personal taste. it must be scalable, flexible and should work very fine in digital an analog parts. of course its over engeneered, but it fits everywere. all that pus units left a small part in my actual favorite design. since the end of 2016 i am working with the mosfet-rectifier and lt4320. I asked Vasilis Tounas from Ideon to draw it in eagle -i am to stupid for that- since my first dac we became one kind of oldfashiones letter-friendship - not uninteresting for both sides, i think.

look, i need for a complete dac, streamer, router, switch-setup with server/client solution  about 15-20 pcs of supreme power supplies on same level like the JS-2 or SR 4. in positive and negative for e.g. the op-amp. this is overkill, i know - but i can´t .... i must ... you know its a hobby... religion... Count the amount of money for such a setup. that´s my reason for diy.

such a universal power supply should have: a dc trap before the transformator, a good transformer, a common noise choke behind becoz the lt4320 reacts very sensetive on cm-noise, the lt4320 with extreme low resistant mosfets, a differential mode choke like JS use it in his older designs for the squeezebox and the JS-2 (sometimes i use normal speaker coils instead of the big hammonds), fast and good sounding caps like the Nichicon muse, a 780x -style regulator like belleson super reg, daxa/newclassd uwb2/schellarz audio reg or the sparkos labs reg and a hand full of silmic 2. (i like the combination of muse before the reg and silmic II behind - thats a kind of personal taste). wen you want a resistor to give the transients a place to go and a a small input/output 0,1-0,3uF Wima Foil. Thats it. you can build that from scratch in about 40 minutes...due to the fact i got some friends, who want it to...i have pcb´s now.

you can ask me if you need the schematic. but its so easy. on the pictures the choke is missing.

 

beware of all chinese boards. often they use fake parts, wrong designs, old parts - relabled. buy two - get 2 different - and different sounding. don´t buy lt1083-85 regulator designs in the internet - 99,5% are fake - on ebay 100%. beware they use other regs that can only deliver 1-1.5A.

regards sunny

Hi Sunny,

That is a good looking psu. It wasn’t until recently I came across these active rectifiers. What is the benefit of these vs schottkey or ultra fast diode bridge sound wise? 

When I started this streamer building hobby, coming of my speaker building hobby, I searched a lot for good diy psu’s but didn’t want to make my own pcb’s. I settled for the s11 psu because of it’s current capabilities which where often lacking on the super regulators. I am also using the LT3045 and I like them because you can parallel them to the current you want. But I only use them in certain spots like powering a SSD, clocks or a NUC as I am going to in the near future, with a s11 as a pre-regulator. On the critical spot like powering my jcat usb card I use a Sjöström super regulator, which I like. 

 

Is your psu choke in the ac part, the blue thing or is that small transformer? I always thought chokes where used in the dc part, otherwise it’s a low voltage ac net filter (sort of).

 

My streamer for the last two year.

 

Super regulator

regards

Rick

[Dev]

22 minutes ago, sunny_time_99 said:

hats my opinion too. the last years i spend a lot time to build dac´s better and better. but in the last months we put more focus on the streamer itself. and later on server/client typol. if the frontend is state of the art - its not a big difference if i change froim my actual 9038pro design back to my beloved 14bit tpa1540.

 

The real focus should have been with the DAC manufacturers putting serious effort to make USB input (or any digital input) immune to jitter and noise (Chord is one I can think at the moment). Folks that really want to dabble into NUC/AL/LPS, streamer/server is very less compared to most folks who really want to enjoy digital audio.