UpTone Audio USB Regen Listening Impressions

[JohnSwenson]

My Amber Regen arrived a couple days ago and so far, so good. I am finding the same uniformly positive improvements noted by others with no negatives. Impressive. I will post additional thoughts in a few more weeks once I have more time with it.

 

One question/comment- with the Regen installed, I am finding that I am turning up the volume on my preamp a few clicks to get to what I subjectively perceive to be the optimal volume level (I haven't checked SPL's with my meter, but may do so this weekend... this is very likely all just in my head).

 

I am curious if others are adjusting volume up, keeping it the same, or turning it down with the Regen in the system?

 

I have found that with reproduced sound many people turn up the volume until the level of the "grunge", "harshness", "distortions" become objectionable. The REGEN decreases this grunge, so the natural tendency is to turn up the gain until what grunge that is left is just below objectionable status.

 

I have found myself doing this several times, then I think, wow, it is really LOUD now and turn it down some, and then marvel at how clean it really is.

 

John S.

[Blake]

I have found that with reproduced sound many people turn up the volume until the level of the "grunge", "harshness", "distortions" become objectionable. The REGEN decreases this grunge, so the natural tendency is to turn up the gain until what grunge that is left is just below objectionable status.

 

I have found myself doing this several times, then I think, wow, it is really LOUD now and turn it down some, and then marvel at how clean it really is.

 

John S.

 

John,

 

Thanks for responding. I am pretty much certain you are right. The Regen is probably obliterating any small remaining amounts of digititis in my system that would otherwise prevent me from listening at higher levels because the sound becomes uncomfortable.

 

Before I installed the Regen, with the filter on my TotalDac usb cable and my iFi iUSB (together with the Berkeley USB converter) I thought I could no longer detect any digititis, but the Regen has shown me that this was not the case and further improvement is possible.

 

For me, "digititis" is an unnatural sense of tension in the sound..... glassy, hard, one dimensional, etc. Digititis infected notes are like hard glass discs, whereas natural analog sounding notes are like rubber squash balls, in that the notes have a 3-D character with a sense of give or squishiness to the notes. I'm sure that makes zero sense, but its how I hear things.

 

With my Regen Amber, the sound from my system is even more like a squash ball, which for me is the holy grail.

[Jud]

I have found that with reproduced sound many people turn up the volume until the level of the "grunge", "harshness", "distortions" become objectionable. The REGEN decreases this grunge, so the natural tendency is to turn up the gain until what grunge that is left is just below objectionable status.

 

I have found myself doing this several times, then I think, wow, it is really LOUD now and turn it down some, and then marvel at how clean it really is.

 

John S.

 

So much fun how different we all are. Yes, I've got the stuff I turn up loud and rock out to, but mostly I only turn it up until I feel that I hear everything clearly. With the Regen I've been keeping the volume *lower*.

[AnotherSpin]

So much fun how different we all are. Yes, I've got the stuff I turn up loud and rock out to, but mostly I only turn it up until I feel that I hear everything clearly. With the Regen I've been keeping the volume *lower*.

 

Agree, regen gives more and more clear on lower volume level.

[kenreau]

I am curious if anyone to tell me that the Uptone Regen would be an improvement in my system.

 

I use an Aurender S10 with a really nice AQ WEL AES digital cable in to my Devialet D200. I went with an AES digital cable to avoid all the known gyrations and kluge signal converions that using USB protocols require. Both the Aurender and Devialet can use USB.

 

My hypothesis is using my current AES digital transfer method should still be superior, but given all the positive attributes and reviews of the Regen, I need to scratch my head and wonder if changing to a USB format may now be better with using the Regen.

 

Any knowledgeable comments would be appreciated.

 

Thx

Kenreau

[Daudio]

... For me, "digititis" is an unnatural sense of tension in the sound..... glassy, hard, one dimensional, etc. Digititis infected notes are like hard glass discs, whereas natural analog sounding notes are like rubber squash balls, in that the notes have a 3-D character with a sense of give or squishiness to the notes. I'm sure that makes zero sense, but its how I hear things... even more like a squash ball...

 

Blake,

 

I find it interesting that you are using terms from the tactile senses to try and describe your perception of SQ. I get the relationships of the analogies, but sound, of course, has no physical density

 

Perhaps the ear traces the outline/envelope of a sound and can detect the [hardness, crispness, softness, squishiness] of that 'shape' , compared to previous experiences ?

[jamesg11]

L

I have found that with reproduced sound many people turn up the volume until the level of the "grunge", "harshness", "distortions" become objectionable. The REGEN decreases this grunge, so the natural tendency is to turn up the gain until what grunge that is left is just below objectionable status.

 

I have found myself doing this several times, then I think, wow, it is really LOUD now and turn it down some, and then marvel at how clean it really is.

John S.

Yes, my experience going back awhile - I resorted to an SPL app on my iPad, where I got into the habit of every now & then checking the peaks: keep it below mid 80s has become my rule! Besides, that way I am ensuring that I've got the power amp comfortably sitting in sweet class A, as well as looking after the hearing.

[BobSherman]

It seems a bit weird to me, to suggest that an adaptor with internal leads perhaps 2.5CM long could do too much damage in comparison with a PC's much longer internal cable to a front USB port for example. I suspect that the data and power lines in that cable are highly unlikely to be separately shielded. With a PC where the +5V isn't needed, you could perhaps cut the red wire right at the plug where it is connected to the motherboard.

 

Alex

 

Computer Audio 101... Never use the front USB ports.

[One and a half]

I am curious if anyone to tell me that the Uptone Regen would be an improvement in my system.

 

I use an Aurender S10 with a really nice AQ WEL AES digital cable in to my Devialet D200. I went with an AES digital cable to avoid all the known gyrations and kluge signal converions that using USB protocols require. Both the Aurender and Devialet can use USB.

 

My hypothesis is using my current AES digital transfer method should still be superior, but given all the positive attributes and reviews of the Regen, I need to scratch my head and wonder if changing to a USB format may now be better with using the Regen.

 

Any knowledgeable comments would be appreciated.

 

Thx

Kenreau

 

Now six months ago, ever since I fed my DAC a meal of AES3, there's no need to to use USB. AES3 is a lower frequency than USB, and provided it's clocked reasonably well, there's none or very little (my guess) of packet noise compared to USB. The Regen removes a substantial portion of USB packet noise, so that works, but is this the same or better as AES3? Good question.

 

There are a few more connections of course with the Regen and power supply, so that requires choice of cabling. Some folks is OK to use a different setup, some don't want to go through the process of choosing another cable, again.

 

In the recording studio, from what I have skimmed over, USB is provided as a convenience rather than a reference, more often than not is used for storage retrieval. AES3 is always provided in some form or another, so if it's good enough for Pro use, is there any better transmission? If you use fiber cable, the frequency increases for the transmission, then changes gears and conversions again to AES3, there's more in the way than a simple direct cable..!

 

The other issue is of driver problems with Windows or OSX. AES3 transmissions from the S10 is no problem for any DAC that has this input, it's an AES standard.

 

AES3 is limited to 192kHz (in the Pro field, although there could be exceptions for consumer devices), that limits goodies like DSD. If your library is 99% PCM, then that problem is gone and there's SACD or some SACD players can play the DSD_DISC standard for those who adore DSD. DSD conversions to PCM are a waste of time and provide no advantage to DSD and what it offers in the first place. Sorry for the diversion.

 

For a company like Merging Technologies or Berkeley Design not including USB as standard on their DACs does make you wonder why it is missing.

[JohnSwenson]

Now six months ago, ever since I fed my DAC a meal of AES3, there's no need to to use USB. AES3 is a lower frequency than USB, and provided it's clocked reasonably well, there's none or very little (my guess) of packet noise compared to USB. The Regen removes a substantial portion of USB packet noise, so that works, but is this the same or better as AES3? Good question.

 

There are a few more connections of course with the Regen and power supply, so that requires choice of cabling. Some folks is OK to use a different setup, some don't want to go through the process of choosing another cable, again.

 

In the recording studio, from what I have skimmed over, USB is provided as a convenience rather than a reference, more often than not is used for storage retrieval. AES3 is always provided in some form or another, so if it's good enough for Pro use, is there any better transmission? If you use fiber cable, the frequency increases for the transmission, then changes gears and conversions again to AES3, there's more in the way than a simple direct cable..!

 

The other issue is of driver problems with Windows or OSX. AES3 transmissions from the S10 is no problem for any DAC that has this input, it's an AES standard.

 

AES3 is limited to 192kHz (in the Pro field, although there could be exceptions for consumer devices), that limits goodies like DSD. If your library is 99% PCM, then that problem is gone and there's SACD or some SACD players can play the DSD_DISC standard for those who adore DSD. DSD conversions to PCM are a waste of time and provide no advantage to DSD and what it offers in the first place. Sorry for the diversion.

 

For a company like Merging Technologies or Berkeley Design not including USB as standard on their DACs does make you wonder why it is missing.

 

AES3 is still packetized, but there is no "dead air" in-between packets. With USB and Ethernet there is significant space between packets, a furious amount of work happens when a packet shows up, then nothing for a long time, then another blast of activity. That doesn't happen with AES3.

 

BUT AES3 (as usually implemented) still has the computer in control of timing, the DAC has to slave its clock to what is coming over the wire. This is NEVER as good as just having a single fixed clock right next to the DAC chip(s).

 

So it comes down to how good the designer is at slaving a DAC to AES3 as opposed to how good they are at dealing with the packet noise from the USB receiver. Both are very difficult technical challenges and finding designers who are equally adept at both is very difficult to find, so you wind up with different DACs being best at one or the other. So it has far more to do with the skill set of the designer than any inherent superiority of one or the other.

 

John S.

[wisnon]

First Impressions of Regen Amber

 

Alex and John, You SOBs! (LOL) How you du dat!!

 

As some have said there is more clarity, realism and definition of bass. But it is So MUCH MORE.

 

Clarity; For sure, but not with any sterility, harshness. There is transparency that must be heard to believe, because for $175.00 the level of transparency is, ridiculous, unheard of.

 

Realism; For sure again, but the Regen Green had it in spades so how could the Regen Amber be more realistic? I don't know, why are you asking me!! Go ask Alex or John! All I know is the Amber has more realism, so there, just except it and be happy, move on.

 

Definition of bass; Well hell ya!! The Regen Amber is all over this. Though not just the low bass but the mids down. But I believe there is more definition over the whole spectrum, from top to bottom. It is just that the "bass" area is more improved.

 

You can hear a difference as soon as you put the Regen Amber in but the opening up of the sound-stage and more is still yet to come. In my system it took about an hour for the sound-stage to open up and all the above to present itself.

 

If the Regen Amber is anything like the Regen Green than there should be some small gains to come with more hours on it, to a point.

 

But there is more. There is more body to the sound of each instrument. Instruments like drums, bass etc are very noticeable. But even instruments like the Clarinet, Xylophone, Tambourine, Piano etc have more body, yes, but are also more "fleshed out".

 

With the Regen Amber the instruments are more palpable. There is a presence.

 

So, in closing, Alex I have just this to say to you. Hi Ho, Hi Ho its off to work you go building Regen Ambers 24/7 till your finger tips bleed, and then some. LOL

 

And to John, keep giving, PLEASE.

 

Did you have the Corning with the Green?

 

I need to hear the comparo like that. I wont know till Alex ships my upgrade board, as I current run Green/Corning…and am breaking in new EML mesh plate 45 tubes in my Lampi Big7.

[sandyk]

Computer Audio 101... Never use the front USB ports.

 

With PC's in particular, they are often placed with their rear near a wall so that all the "spaghetti" at the back isn't obvious.

What is worse, a shorter USB 2.0 cable plugged into a front port, or a much longer USB 2.0 cable from a rear port coming out to the front where it can be used with another device so that it is readily accessible ? As I suggested, if a front port is used exclusively for the USB Audio device, and the USB device doesn't need to see incoming noisy +5V, then with an internal USB 2.0 cable, it should be quite easy to snip the red wire right at the end of the plug going into the motherboard.

 

Alex

 

[kenreau]

AES3 is still packetized, but there is no "dead air" in-between packets. With USB and Ethernet there is significant space between packets, a furious amount of work happens when a packet shows up, then nothing for a long time, then another blast of activity. That doesn't happen with AES3.

 

BUT AES3 (as usually implemented) still has the computer in control of timing, the DAC has to slave its clock to what is coming over the wire. This is NEVER as good as just having a single fixed clock right next to the DAC chip(s).

 

So it comes down to how good the designer is at slaving a DAC to AES3 as opposed to how good they are at dealing with the packet noise from the USB receiver. Both are very difficult technical challenges and finding designers who are equally adept at both is very difficult to find, so you wind up with different DACs being best at one or the other. So it has far more to do with the skill set of the designer than any inherent superiority of one or the other.

 

John S.

 

John, thank you very much for the informative response. Sounds like (pun intended) with most similar things, it's complicated and, it depends. Best to try it out both ways in my system and confirm.

 

Thanks

Kenreau

[kenreau]

Now six months ago, ever since I fed my DAC a meal of AES3, there's no need to to use USB. AES3 is a lower frequency than USB, and provided it's clocked reasonably well, there's none or very little (my guess) of packet noise compared to USB. The Regen removes a substantial portion of USB packet noise, so that works, but is this the same or better as AES3? Good question.

 

There are a few more connections of course with the Regen and power supply, so that requires choice of cabling. Some folks is OK to use a different setup, some don't want to go through the process of choosing another cable, again.

 

In the recording studio, from what I have skimmed over, USB is provided as a convenience rather than a reference, more often than not is used for storage retrieval. AES3 is always provided in some form or another, so if it's good enough for Pro use, is there any better transmission? If you use fiber cable, the frequency increases for the transmission, then changes gears and conversions again to AES3, there's more in the way than a simple direct cable..!

 

The other issue is of driver problems with Windows or OSX. AES3 transmissions from the S10 is no problem for any DAC that has this input, it's an AES standard.

 

AES3 is limited to 192kHz (in the Pro field, although there could be exceptions for consumer devices), that limits goodies like DSD. If your library is 99% PCM, then that problem is gone and there's SACD or some SACD players can play the DSD_DISC standard for those who adore DSD. DSD conversions to PCM are a waste of time and provide no advantage to DSD and what it offers in the first place. Sorry for the diversion.

 

For a company like Merging Technologies or Berkeley Design not including USB as standard on their DACs does make you wonder why it is missing.

 

I'm thinking and wondering along the same lines.

 

Thanks for the input. I think I'll just keep my status quo for now and enjoy the music.

 

Kenreau

[YashN]

AES3 is still packetized, but there is no "dead air" in-between packets. With USB and Ethernet there is significant space between packets, a furious amount of work happens when a packet shows up, then nothing for a long time, then another blast of activity. That doesn't happen with AES3.

 

I was reading one of your earlier informative posts about the Regen earlier today, and the thought came back to me about why we can't just bit-blast a pin from a computer without any packetised interface in between. DSD with that would be fun. I could do bit-blasting with an Arduino for Fast PWM...

 

More generally, a real, non-packetised DSD bitstream.

[mourip]

I have found that with reproduced sound many people turn up the volume until the level of the "grunge", "harshness", "distortions" become objectionable. The REGEN decreases this grunge, so the natural tendency is to turn up the gain until what grunge that is left is just below objectionable status.

 

I have found myself doing this several times, then I think, wow, it is really LOUD now and turn it down some, and then marvel at how clean it really is.

 

John S.

 

+1

 

Thanks for this clear explanation. I have noticed this same effect with a lot of changes I have made to my computer audio system front end.

 

It also makes me think that most of the flack that digital audio has received over the last couple of decades was due to uninformed treatment of the digital signal, not a problem inherent in digitally encoded music. My redbook music never ceases to amaze me with my considerably tweeked system now.

[davide256]

I would be surprised if some of your customers don't use it this way. There are quite a few PC owners who use USB audio, not just Mac Mini owners.The Regen may realise marked improvements, but I doubt that the quality of the incoming USB cable and the S.I. from the computer is no longer of concern. It obviously is, or there wouldn't be a resistor in series with the 0 volts line at the Regen's Input.

 

Hmmm, hadn't thought of the regen elsewhere in line than main system between streamer/server USB out and asynch USB in to DAC. Anyone tried it with laptop/PC to headphone amp like a AQ Dragonfly or iFi NANO/Micro for just casual listening? I generally can't stand this if its not a Mac because "grunge" cripples the music clarity.

[JohnSwenson]

Hmmm, hadn't thought of the regen elsewhere in line than main system between streamer/server USB out and asynch USB in to DAC. Anyone tried it with laptop/PC to headphone amp like a AQ Dragonfly or iFi NANO/Micro for just casual listening? I generally can't stand this if its not a Mac because "grunge" cripples the music clarity.

 

I have an HRT Music StreamerII, which by itself sounds pretty flat and boring, the music is there but it is missing all the life. When I feed it from a REGEN it is transformed and sounds like a WAY more expensive DAC. Alex had a similar experience with an original DevilSound DAC.

 

John S.

[One and a half]

AES3 is still packetized, but there is no "dead air" in-between packets. With USB and Ethernet there is significant space between packets, a furious amount of work happens when a packet shows up, then nothing for a long time, then another blast of activity. That doesn't happen with AES3.

 

BUT AES3 (as usually implemented) still has the computer in control of timing, the DAC has to slave its clock to what is coming over the wire. This is NEVER as good as just having a single fixed clock right next to the DAC chip(s).

 

So it comes down to how good the designer is at slaving a DAC to AES3 as opposed to how good they are at dealing with the packet noise from the USB receiver. Both are very difficult technical challenges and finding designers who are equally adept at both is very difficult to find, so you wind up with different DACs being best at one or the other. So it has far more to do with the skill set of the designer than any inherent superiority of one or the other.

 

John S.

 

For AES3, I use a USB to S/PDIF + AES 3 'reclocker' if you like, Mutec MC-1.2. It reclocks the USB to something resaonably tight. For the DAC I use the difference is quite a margin better than USB alone. I have thought of the Regen, but will try another path with a PCI sound card (RME HDSPe AIO in transit) transmitting to AES3 and a combo of the Mutec. If that is close to what I hear from a CD player direct, I'll leave it as is, if not I will try the Regen in front of the DAC direct, or AES3 from the Mutec.

 

I want to try and avoid many interfaces and cabling from the computer to the DAC, but at least for now there's no bypassing that system.

 

John, you've conquered USB packet noise.... try for AES3? A new calling?

[fmak]

For AES3, I use a USB to S/PDIF + AES 3 'reclocker' if you like, Mutec MC-1.2. It reclocks the USB to something resaonably tight. For the DAC I use the difference is quite a margin better than USB alone. I have thought of the Regen, but will try another path with a PCI sound card (RME HDSPe AIO in transit) transmitting to AES3 and a combo of the Mutec. If that is close to what I hear from a CD player direct, I'll leave it as is, if not I will try the Regen in front of the DAC direct, or AES3 from the Mutec.

 

I want to try and avoid many interfaces and cabling from the computer to the DAC, but at least for now there's no bypassing that system.

 

John, you've conquered USB packet noise.... try for AES3? A new calling?

 

I was in discussion with JS, Charles Hansen, Gordon and others even before this forum

existed (years ago).I was interested in both AES3 and usb async done right and brought

up repeatedly the issues of signal integrity and power supply cross pollution of the

digital signal.

 

I remember the following:

 

1. JS was playing with the EMU 0404 and said that USB sound was the only 'right one'

he'd heard.I disagreed with this and brought up AES done right eg dCS Pro dac and

processors boxes,especially sdif with three wire (L,R Clk).

 

2. Charles Hansen repeatedly said that spdif was broken which I disagreed with.

 

3. Gordon said that only usb was right.

 

Others said all sort of things and only audioengr paid equal attention to signal

integrity and power supply issues.

 

Those who have spent time on clocks, clock signals and digital eye patterns

know what signal integrity and power supply effects are about and how they affect SQ.

 

I spent several years doing listening, measuring and monitoring and have decided

long ago that signal integrity must be the starting point for good sound. Now the

whole subject is being turned around to usb audio and its issues.

 

I find it somewhat amusing that Fempto clocks are must haves, whereas ordinary and

not very good XOs are all over the place in the XMOS and Amanero USB to I2S boards

that are commonplace in the same boxes,in places where final clocking actually takes

place!

 

In the meantime, millions have been spent on computer hardware by audiophiles.

[zerung]

[4est]

It is too bad Steve Nugent is banned here.

 

Others said all sort of things and only audioengr paid equal attention to signal

integrity and power supply issues.

 

[YashN]

I [snipped] have decided

long ago that signal integrity must be the starting point for good sound.

 

Goes without saying for me. On the other hand, each way of transporting/processing the signal has its own set of issues to deal with along the chain.

[wisnon]

Recall the digi-Lampizator circuit in the Lampi SBox transport? It really squared up the digital signal via SPDIF. That was certainly SI related.

[tranz]

...

BUT AES3 (as usually implemented) still has the computer in control of timing, the DAC has to slave its clock to what is coming over the wire. This is NEVER as good as just having a single fixed clock right next to the DAC chip(s). ...

John S.

 

Lynx is a good example where they implemented a sync lock solution. You have the option to choose, and I always have the DAC as the master.