Windows LTSC Install for Music Server

[One and a half]

Using Win2016 server type OS has its limitations, for playing and storing music is fine for Roon. Audirvana + doesn't install on Win2016, nor NVIDIA software for modest graphic cards. Every month there's an update to install.

After reading the Taiko Extreme uses Windows 10 LTSC, thought why not give this a try, could use a break from  updates and a stripped down OS is very useful.

To leave the existing Roon install intact, a new WD 256GB green SSD was used to install LTSC, which went reasonably quick, around 15 minutes from a USB Stick ISO image with help from Rufus.

Bit of faffing about to arrange the network bridge and the router to allocate a fixed IP address, once that was working OK, installed Roon and backed up from a network drive.

 

Nothing else had changed with the rest of the system, so fired up the first track. On the initial listen, something wasn't right, the image height had collapsed, sibilants were very common, and the spread across the speakers was very poor and mono-ish. Geez, does the OS make *that* much of a difference?? Compared Spohie Milman's In the Moonlight 48fs versus a CD analog out direct from CD player and the CD easily beat the digiital with the recording full of life.

 

Every now and again a check is made between CD/SACD playback and digital, and the results are usually very close, what lets digital down is the recordings.... anyway.

 

Thought about the similar effect when different USB cables were evaluated, and it dawned on the brain feeble, that noise had crept into the playback process rather than an OS change. Since changes were only in the Server, the grounding of different elements were examined and fortified. I had neglected to ground the new SSD and the newish 10TB WD Gold Drive.  The existing Samsung EVO SSD case was grounded before.

 

Further changes were made:

a) New ground wire from JCAT Net Femto RJ45 Jack frame

b) New Ground wire from JCAT USB frame. The card didn't provide a largish surface area for proper EMC grounding, but there was something to ground to.

c) New ground wire for the WD SSD

d) New Ground wire for the 10TB gold Drive

 

Due to the location, the drive's grounds were connected at one point, since the Supermicro's Server's mounting trays insulate the drives from the chassis, which is kind of handy for creating a star point. Needed to keep those cables short and ran a larger 10AWG wire from that point to another on the rear of the chassis that picked up the JCAT grounding wires, rather than use the chassis. The larger wire was to hand, should have used a larger braid, which I need to order plus to finish the job properly, star washers from M3, M4, M5 screws.

 

Buttoned up the Server and listened again. Well! What a difference, sound-stage spread was back, height everything was like how it was before. So the noise propagation was uncontrolled, now driven where it's supposed to be, back to the source within the Server and NOT on top of the Ethernet signal lead affecting playback.

 

Please have a think for those who build their own Music Servers, and bond the major components to gain a few more db of noise reduction

 

As for Windows 10 LTSC, go for it, so far so good!

 

Specs link in the signature for reference.

 

 

 

 

[seeteeyou]

It's all good until we're trying to figure out how to get a legitimate license for LTSC 2019

 

https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/2167558-explicit-instructions-for-purchasing-a-windows-10-ltsc-license

 

Different processors require different licenses

 

https://www.elbacom.com/windows-10-iot-enterprise-2019-ltsc-sac/

https://advdownload.advantech.com/productfile/PIS/Windows%2010%20IoT/Product%20-%20Datasheet/Windows%2010%20IoT_DS(03.06.19)20190307114148.pdf#page=2

 

According to the PDF file linked above, we're supposed to purchase "LTSC High-End" for Xeon Scalable unless we're considered an OEM

 

https://www.hiendy.com/hififorum/data/attachment/forum/202002/26/164751jkjcsiz87sislgih.jpg

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-206#post-654177

Quote

We have an OEM volume license with a slightly different description but I expect the software itself to be similar if not the same.

 

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Quote

After reading the Taiko Extreme uses Windows 10 LTSC, thought why not give this a try, could use a break from updates and a stripped down OS is very useful.

 

IMHO it might not be such a good idea to leave Windows unpatched these days, even Version 1809 (LTSC 2019) ain't safe until it's patched

 

https://www.tenable.com/blog/smbleed-cve-2020-1206-and-smblost-cve-2020-1301-vulnerabilities-affect-microsoft-smbv3-and

Quote

Windows 10 1809

 

[One and a half]

4 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

It's all good until we're trying to figure out how to get a legitimate license for LTSC 2019

 

https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/2167558-explicit-instructions-for-purchasing-a-windows-10-ltsc-license

 

Different processors require different licenses

 

https://www.elbacom.com/windows-10-iot-enterprise-2019-ltsc-sac/

https://advdownload.advantech.com/productfile/PIS/Windows%2010%20IoT/Product%20-%20Datasheet/Windows%2010%20IoT_DS(03.06.19)20190307114148.pdf#page=2

 

According to the PDF file linked above, we're supposed to purchase "LTSC High-End" for Xeon Scalable unless we're considered an OEM

 

https://www.hiendy.com/hififorum/data/attachment/forum/202002/26/164751jkjcsiz87sislgih.jpg

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-206#post-654177

 

---

 

 

IMHO it might not be such a good idea to leave Windows unpatched these days, even Version 1809 (LTSC 2019) ain't safe until it's patched

 

https://www.tenable.com/blog/smbleed-cve-2020-1206-and-smblost-cve-2020-1301-vulnerabilities-affect-microsoft-smbv3-and

 

Windows patched itself while Roon was taking 24 hours to restore itself, on the reboot, the choices were update shutdown/restart.

[dminches]

I had no issue obtaining a license for Windows LTSC.  I went through an online company, Advantech.com.  First, you have to apply for a CLA license from Microsoft, which is free.  The process requires you to apply on line.  This part took less than 24 hours.  All the information is available on Advantech's web site.

 

After that I purchased an LTSC high-end license which was required since I am running a Ryzen 3700.  They have to mail the license to you since the CLA agreement requires you to put a sticker on the case.

 

Cost was about $150 in total.

 

[seeteeyou]

https://twitter.com/thebookisclosed

https://twitter.com/NTDEV_/status/1351632633025998858

Quote

It seems that Win10X might be harder to run on standard PCs than macOS, not because of the install process, but the lack of compatible drivers (DCH) I'm able to run macOS Big Sur with little to no issues, whereas Windows 10X can't even detect my Ethernet card... :/

 

FYI - here's Windows 10X

 

https://pastebin.com/raw/f0bQM5Mu

https://github.com/gus33000/UUPMediaCreator/releases

https://forums.mydigitallife.net/threads/discussion-windows-10x.80781/

https://osg.wiki/books/windows-10x/page/installing-windows-10x-from-cabs-on-real-hardware

https://osg.wiki/books/windows-10x/page/installing-windows-10x-(emulator-image)-on-real-hardware

 

[BOBO]

out of curiosity, has anyone gotten their hands on the modified LTSC version that the TAIKO use ?

[Nenon]

I doubt it. Volume Shadow Copy is a component that was removed on the Extreme's LTSC. There is no easy way to get a copy of the image. Not impossible if you boot another OS and know what you are doing. But also illegal for sure.

 

I have done my share of browsing a bunch of Extreme servers out of curiosity to see what was done. Planning to publish a guide on how to buy LTSC, how to remove components (and what components to remove) with NtLite and some scripts, and some other OS-level tweaking, plus a ProcessLasso guide related to the dual CPUs / Asus SAGE mobo. That will happen when the Taiko DIY chassis is ready, and I put together a new server per the DIY recipe I will be posting in the coming months. Keep an eye on the Building a DIY Music Server thread for updates... although this is probably 2-3 months away. 

[BOBO]

i`m pretty sure NtLite would work, just load the installed os.

[Csaba]

Which LTSC version should be installed, normal or "N"?

 

In other words, are we losing any functionalty (when using e.g. ROON and Hqplayer) if Windows Media Player and some related software is not installed?

[MarcelNL]

I recently read that a new LTSC version will only be released late 2021. Is it worth the wait?

[One and a half]

3 hours ago, MarcelNL said:

I recently read that a new LTSC version will only be released late 2021. Is it worth the wait?

Sometimes the new version is worse than the old, speculation doesn't work in deciding 🙂

[Zauurx]

I am using an LSTC 2019 version (1809).
With a little effort, a few tools (AO 3.0, ProcessLasso, ProcessHacker, etc.) and a few scripts, I get to 32 processes without audio software.
39 with Roon + HQP.
Management via TightVNC, file sharing function operational (LanServer), low latency (HPET off) and Time resolution to 5ms.
By disabling HPET, I lowered the QPC to 10Mhz (QueryPerfomanceCounter). It seems that with Win10 1809, 10Mhz is the minimum. You have to go back to a 1803 version to go lower (~ 3Mhz). 😋

[MarcelNL]

just out of curiosity, did you listen to the difference of switching HPET on/off?

(will try later tonight, as I have to confess I never looked up what it is) 

[Zauurx]

Yes, and before :
 

Highest measured interrupt to process latency (µs):   278,583333
Average measured interrupt to process latency (µs):   52,675224

Highest measured interrupt to DPC latency (µs):       239,416667
Average measured interrupt to DPC latency (µs):       22,371433

 And now :
 

Highest measured interrupt to process latency (µs):   81,40
Average measured interrupt to process latency (µs):   1,849294

Highest measured interrupt to DPC latency (µs):       48,30
Average measured interrupt to DPC latency (µs):       0,459060

 

On Core i5-8400 (no hyperthreading)

[MarcelNL]

impressive difference, can you describe the difference in sound? 

[Zauurx]

less oppressive, wider, deep and calm.
But it depends on the processor (invariant TSC compatible) too.

[MarcelNL]

sounds promising, just switched it off, rebooted and now heating up the Klangfilm amp😃

[MarcelNL]

consider me a convert, more space, indeed calmness that usually indicates less distortion, more organic highs, cleaner dynamics!

Muchos gracias!

 

EDIT: now the amp is a bit more warmed up the difference is even more clear! WOW what was I thinking when I thought, more precise clock...tick!

[Dev]

4 hours ago, Zauurx said:

I am using an LSTC 2019 version (1809).
With a little effort, a few tools (AO 3.0, ProcessLasso, ProcessHacker, etc.) and a few scripts, I get to 32 processes without audio software.
39 with Roon + HQP.
Management via TightVNC, file sharing function operational (LanServer), low latency (HPET off) and Time resolution to 5ms.
By disabling HPET, I lowered the QPC to 10Mhz (QueryPerfomanceCounter). It seems that with Win10 1809, 10Mhz is the minimum. You have to go back to a 1803 version to go lower (~ 3Mhz). 😋

 

Wow, how did you get down to 32 processes ? 🤔 With AO 3.0 and Fidelizer 8 on Win 10 Pro, I am just over 100 (I think somewhere around 104) with Roon server.

 

My HPET is enabled as I always thought its useful for the timing accuracy. Need to disable and check. Thanks for the tip.

[One and a half]

5 hours ago, Zauurx said:

I am using an LSTC 2019 version (1809).
With a little effort, a few tools (AO 3.0, ProcessLasso, ProcessHacker, etc.) and a few scripts, I get to 32 processes without audio software.
39 with Roon + HQP.
Management via TightVNC, file sharing function operational (LanServer), low latency (HPET off) and Time resolution to 5ms.
By disabling HPET, I lowered the QPC to 10Mhz (QueryPerfomanceCounter). It seems that with Win10 1809, 10Mhz is the minimum. You have to go back to a 1803 version to go lower (~ 3Mhz). 😋

Awesome work, highly appreciated; five stars !!

[seeteeyou]

DUDE, no kidding

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KDVWnL5RTzRxa2MwC8TTS_AjrcoKXWAP/view

http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/2949-audiophile-optimizer-30/page-8#entry53857

Quote

Since it's a dedicated audio-PC I'm sure you can do better. As examples only, running WS2019 in GUI mode with a command prompt shell, AO, Process Lasso, Fidelizer, and MinorityClean, I have just 25 Windows processes on the Control-PC (WiFi to Bubble UPnP, ethernet to Audio-PC), and just 19 Windows processes on the Audio-PC (excluding JPLAY, Fidelizer, Process Lasso and MinorityClean). The PCs are optimized as described in the guide linked in my signature. There may be some tips there you can also apply to Windows 10.

 

[Zauurx]

12 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

DUDE, no kidding

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KDVWnL5RTzRxa2MwC8TTS_AjrcoKXWAP/view

http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/2949-audiophile-optimizer-30/page-8#entry53857

 

 

This is not a contest, especially with Bernie !! 😋
And it's not the number of processes that does everything.

When I say 39 process, it is with everything operational (Minority Clean + Sexe64, Roon, HQP, ProcessLasso + WindowsCommand..).

 

Win10.. not Win server

Without, with just windows operational (file sharing and TightVNC / 2 process). :

 

 

 

[seeteeyou]

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/55916-euphony-os-wstylus-player-setup-and-issues-thread/page/163/#comment-1208792

On 8/3/2022 at 2:29 PM, flkin said:

I will have a chance to compare Euphony v4 with Win10 IoT Enterprise LTSC / JPlay (Custom ISO) both installed internally in the same streamer this coming weekend.

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/55916-euphony-os-wstylus-player-setup-and-issues-thread/page/166/#comment-1210782

On 8/19/2022 at 1:33 PM, flkin said:

I asked to purchase a copy of his software setup to compare in my own system but Doc said he couldn’t do it due to licensing reasons. So my quest to compare JPlay Femto with Euphony continues.

 

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FYI - apparently it's even easier to reduce the overall footprint (for free) without having to acquire additional licenses

 

https://github.com/wimbrts/VHD_WIMBOOT/blob/master/VHD_WIMBOOT.pdf

Quote

3. use Win_Reduce_Trusted on Offline Windows in VHD - Reduce in 1 minute - Mini 10x64 VHD UsedSize < 2 GB - UnMount VHD by Eject

Mini 10x64 in VHD with UsedSize = 1.77 GB - Booting in UEFI Secure mode from RAMDISK using SVBus driver

https://imgur.com/CeYI11p

 

Password for downloads

bootwimb

 

Downloads and further discussions could be found below

 

https://github.com/wimbrts/VHD_WIMBOOT/releases

http://reboot.pro/index.php?showtopic=21977

http://reboot.pro/index.php?showtopic=22333

http://reboot.pro/index.php?showtopic=22383

http://reboot.pro/index.php?showtopic=22621

 

https://msfn.org/board/topic/149612-winntsetup-v526/page/158/#comment-1214124

Quote

VHD UsedSize = 1 GB  and LZX WIM = 757 MB  - VHD has 11245 Files and 1770 Folders

Where I need three programs (WinNTSetup + Win_Debloat + Reboot + Win_Reduce,  say 5 minutes for VHD with 1.5 GB UsedSize),

your WinNTSetup 5.2.1 does everything in 30 seconds - I used VHD_WIMBOOT LZX Capture and Apply to Reduce the UsedSize from 1.5 to 1 GB

https://imgur.com/ccS0nri

[tuochongle]

This company sell great casing for hard disk. They have many options and they products built in EMI grounding technology.

 

https://www.icydock.com/goods.php?id=309

 

 

[Nikhil]

On 2/2/2021 at 11:27 PM, Zauurx said:

By disabling HPET, I lowered the QPC to 10Mhz (QueryPerfomanceCounter). It seems that with Win10 1809, 10Mhz is the minimum. You have to go back to a 1803 version to go lower (~ 3Mhz).

 

On 2/3/2021 at 2:16 AM, MarcelNL said:

consider me a convert, more space, indeed calmness that usually indicates less distortion, more organic highs, cleaner dynamics!

Muchos gracias!

 

A little late to this thread but I did try disabling HPET yesterday.

I have to say the music does sound a little more calm.

 

Thanks!

 

 

.