Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[Mihaylov]

4 hours ago, LewinskiH01 said:

Hello.

 

Today I tried to use my LPS-1.2 to power the BG7BTL and had an error. I believe others have used this combination without problem so I'm wondering what might be wrong?

 

The LPS-1.2 is set to 12V, powered by the supplied Uptone SMPS, connected to the BG7BTL thru a Ghent DC cable. Upon turning on the LPS the led goes from red to orange and when it wants to turn green the power and alarm leds on the BG7BTL blink briefly and go off and the led on LPS blinks red, and this cycle continues for as long as keep the LPS on. The BG7BTL output wasn't connected, if that makes a difference. 

 

Why might this be happening? 

Hi! 

Please tell you what OCXO is installed in your clock?

The fact is that the previous clock had DAPU installed first, then FE180, then Symmetricom. In all cases, their maximum consumption current did not exceed 0.5 A at 12 V (according to datasheet, Symmetricom 159-00057-00 is not known, but rather the same because it's a analog of morion MV200).

[Mihaylov]

 

 

 

 

Only the very first OCXO, which was installed in clock over a year ago, has a maximum consumption current of 0.67 A. But it's unlikely to be installed in your clock.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LewinskiH01]

@Superdad

Thank you!

I will leave the clock on overnight and try tomorrow with LPS...hoping a warm clock doesn't demand as much current...unlikely to work, but it's cheap to try.

 

@Mihaylov

It's a Symmetricom. 

 

It's interesting others with BG7BTL with Symmetricom ocxo and LPS-1.2 didn't have this issue.

[Mihaylov]

2 hours ago, LewinskiH01 said:

It's interesting others with BG7BTL with Symmetricom ocxo and LPS-1.2 didn't have this issue.

LPS-1.2 1.1A is more than enough to power Symmertricom with their 12V and 0.55A. Perhaps this is about the LPS-1.2 microprocessor working properly?

 

Symmetricom

Quote

All parameters are the same as MV200.

http://www.morion.com.ru/catalog_pdf/MV200-OCXO.pdf

Volume 50*50*12mm

12V power supply, with voltage control pin, reference voltage output 5V.

This crystal oscillator is made by Morion for Symmetricom, and the main body is MV200 produced by Morion.

This crystal oscillator has the advantages of low phase noise and good stability. It's a very rare piece of material.

Correct link to parameters of MV200.

[richard_crl032]

On 8/23/2021 at 6:56 PM, R1200CL said:

I recommend you not to purchase the AfterDark 3 output clock. And no square wave clock from him. Only sine wave. Then it’s better with 2 clocks, or even start with a splitter. I’m using splitter.

 

Hi R1200CL,

 

Please advise how you are using the splitter from single AD clock to ensure not breaking the moat as well as the 50ohm and 75ohm mismatch if you are not only custom 50ohm ER.

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

I got weak again and acquired another ER to hv one before my Antipodes CX used as server and one before the Antipodes ex being used as a reader but only having one AD double emperor clock.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[R1200CL]

23 minutes ago, richard_crl032 said:

Please advise how you are using the splitter from single AD clock to ensure not breaking the moat as well as the 50ohm and 75ohm mismatch if you are not only custom 50ohm ER.

 

It can be discussed if I’m braking the moat or not. Hopefully not as I’m using both fiber and isolating power supplies from Uptone. 
 

The EtherRegen is 75 ohm. Clock, splitter and SU-2 is 50 ohm. I’m not using the Mini Circuits adapter. I think I had some problems when using it. This impedance miss match isn’t a issue I think. 
 

I hope you did order the 50 ohm EtherRegen then ?

[Mihaylov]

3 hours ago, richard_crl032 said:

the 50ohm and 75ohm mismatch

Specialists at Cybershaft don't see this as a big problem.

 

 

[richard_crl032]

On 8/29/2021 at 8:37 PM, R1200CL said:

I hope you did order the 50 ohm EtherRegen then ?

 

Hi R1200CL,

 

I did not .. 1st unit is 75ohm and so is the 2nd unit.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[LewinskiH01]

On 8/28/2021 at 8:01 PM, LewinskiH01 said:

@Superdad

Thank you!

I will leave the clock on overnight and try tomorrow with LPS...hoping a warm clock doesn't demand as much current...unlikely to work, but it's cheap to try.

 

@Mihaylov

 

It worked! I left the BG7BTL on with the supplied SMPS overnight then removed the SMPS and connected the LPS 1.2 and the BG7BTL turned on. Left it on for a week so to be certain no stabilization issues were affecting the sound.

 

Then I tried:

a) LPS 1.2 feeding BG7BTL thru Ghent DC-GAC4 and ET07 BNC 75 ohm into eR, and eR fed by Uptone SMPS, vs.

b) LPS-1.2 feeding eR thru DC-GAC4.

 

I'm preferring b). More details, definition, across the frequency range. With the BG7BTL it is mellower which isn't bad with some recordings, but I think I loose definition. And cleaner rack.

My system is in flux, especially my DIY speakers, so I'm thinking the edginess might be more about the current speaker prototype. The AMT tweeters are quite revealing and so are the mids. 

 

FWIW my BG7BTL only has square signals...I purchased it right before John's paper was out...oh well.

 

As MartinT said, at the cost of this clock it was an experiment worth doing. Just didn't pan out for me :)

[dylanesque]

On 8/8/2021 at 4:33 AM, MartinT said:

 

Is it just me? Or folks cannot see the image. 
@martin would be kind to re-up?

TIA

[dylanesque]

@MartinThave you also shared your experience with grounding boxes somewhere? TIA

[MartinT]

I can't edit the old post so here is an updated system diagram.

 

[FIndingit]

8 hours ago, MartinT said:

I can't edit the old post so here is an updated system diagram.

 

Looks like you believe dac is the least important link in the chain. 😁

[MartinT]

8 minutes ago, FIndingit said:

Looks like you believe dac is the least important link in the chain. 😁

 

Not at all, but the performance you get from your DAC completely depends on the quality of the datastream you give it.  Reducing phase noise and jitter are paramount.  Thus the reclockers and grounding boxes.

 

Saying that, my new Gustard is an outstanding DAC, very high quality indeed.

[R1200CL]

5 hours ago, FIndingit said:

Looks like you believe dac is the least important link in the chain. 😁

Since you brought it up, what would your preferred DAC be ? Assuming price is from $1500 (same as the GUSTARD X26 PRO) to $2500

 

 

[lxgreen]

This is a very impressive system but I am left to wonder if maximizing use of LPS and clocks is a better path to better sq than using the funds to upgrade the ultra Rendu and Dac?  I would think a better Dac and streamer, like an optical rendu, would be an improvement without all the clocks and LPS and extra cables.

[dylanesque]

14 hours ago, MartinT said:

I can't edit the old post so here is an updated system diagram.

 

Curious if you found perceptible differences with a King vs Emperor at the Mutec?

[MartinT]

1 hour ago, dylanesque said:

Curious if you found perceptible differences with a King vs Emperor at the Mutec?

 

Yes, I did, as I bought the King first to use with the Mutec.  I then ran my BG7TBL with the ER.  Upgrading the King to Emperor Triple Crown gave noticeably more of what clocks do: soundstage, timing, detail.  I then relegated the King to use with the ER.

[GMG]

@MartinT

I am no fortune teller but I see a third clock or a triple output clock in your future :-)

After all you don't want the Gustard to feel left out...

 

Any special reason you have your TP link on the P10?

I believe there is enough separation and isolation in your chain, but it does look as if after all the the dirtiest component has the shortest path to the amplifier (maybe this even shorts the ER moat??)

 

[MartinT]

I've already tested splitting the Emperor clock using a Mini-Circuits splitter and feeding 10MHz into the Gustard.  It's very good, but then the Gustard's K2 internal clock is also very good.  I think the AD wins but there is very little in it.

 

The router is on the P10 (but a separate Zone from the power amp) because I'm using all the outputs on the P3, and those components are more critical.  I've tried the router on straight power without the regenerator, but the system sounds better with it on the P10 and being powered with an LPSU.

[Mouna]

Anyone interested - I am selling in Europe AfterDark Emperor double crown 10 MHZ cloc 75 Ohm,

Black modernize LPS Giesemann Oxco 10 MHz edition, Adark BNC clock cable 75 Ohm, EtherRegen 75 Ohm version...for a reasonable price...

[aubreybobb]

Hello all,

 

This is my first post here....I have installed an Emperor double crown AD clock, dCS version 48 hours ago.   Two word clock outs and four 10M outs, square wave.   Adrian advised this was the sweet spot in the lineup.   The great thing is that it has its own LPS built in, so besides the box itself, no additional complexity. 

 

My system is Router/NAS > copper > Sotm switch (copper wiring EVO) > Fibre (Finnisar/Glass) > ER > copper > ER > copper > dCS Network bridge > AES/EBU to active digital speakers (Kii3).

 

I am using custom Van Damme clock cables 75 Ohm, mostly.  They were around Sterling 10/- each, delivered to India from the UK.   Reportedly The BBC and Abbey Road studios use them exclusively, so I thought why not.

 

Straight out of the box I connected the word clock outs to the NB.  Nice improvement, but a little bright.  Next second ER switch. Another small improvement.  Next first ER switch.  Again improvement.  Finally connected the SOTM, this time using the supplied Belden cable (No 1865, I think).   This was the biggest bang with much improved musicality.

 

All this within the first half hour. 

 

The improvements were the immediately apparent but became more obvious as the evening progressed. Voices more natural, bass bloom more clearly delineated, more detail, backstage elements crystal clear, and best of all, vocal articulation improved.  If before one could make out say, 60-75% of the words in 60's rock and roll, now its up to 85-95%.

 

Can't report any further developments today, as its sounding lousy now.  This normal for the footers I'm using.   It sits on top of the NB which uses critical mass systems footers (CS2).  Any change with these footers means they have to repeat the settle in period - normally that is seven to twelve days.   This seems to be countered by the burn in from the clock, as its not as bad as I remember from the first installation of the footers.

 

Hopefully, this has answered a couple of questions from this last 65 pages:

 

1) Three cascaded switches sound great with improvements from each.

2) Though it may break the moats on the ER's, clocking from the same unit still gives a definite improvement to each switch.

3) Even cheap cables can transmit the time signal well enough to improve these three already very good switches. 

 

Now I'm waiting for it all to settle in. 

 

My questions are below, and any guidance would be much appreciated.

 

1) My copper cables are Wireworld yellow chroma - pretty basic..... so question: can better copper cables improve the SQ given the amount of precise clean up already available in the system?    I had earlier bot the finnisar fibre pack (laser, quicker, more precise) from AD and was simply blown away by the huge improvement over my antique fibre (LED, slow confused) that it replaced.  This actually led me to the external clocking experiment.

 

2) What is the next level up for clock cables? I will be trying all Belden 1865 (supplied) once the system settles down. These ranked third in the comparison earlier in this forum. 

 

Best wishes,

Aubrey

 

 

 

 

 

[Mihaylov]

3 hours ago, aubreybobb said:

clocking from the same unit 

breaks not only the moat in the ER, but also makes it pointless to use the ethernet interface at all (twisted pair or optics all the same) since it deprives ethernet of its main advantage, namely galvanic device isolation. Be very careful in the network configuration so as not to break the galvanic isolation and use a separate clock for each device on the local network, then it will be sufficient one switch instead of several.

[PYP]

1 hour ago, Mihaylov said:

breaks not only the moat in the ER, but also makes it pointless to use the ethernet interface at all (twisted pair or optics all the same) since it deprives ethernet of its main advantage, namely galvanic device isolation. Be very careful in the network configuration so as not to break the galvanic isolation and use a separate clock for each device on the local network, then it will be sufficient one switch instead of several.

My previous setup --  optical module > ER -- with an external clock and the ER + clock powered by the same JS-2 broke the moat yet sounded quite good.   It did sound better by reinstating the moat.  Had all the advantages of what a good external clock provides (naturalness/tone) + the moat's qualities of sense of space and dynamism = very much like live event.  

 

Have since removed the optical module (going up for sale shortly) because adding a second eR (stock, using internal clock) made the oM redundant.   I just mention this to point out that different setups may lead to different arrangements of the components.  One size does not fit all systems/ears/expectations.

 

As to @aubreybobb questions, I found that an excellent clock cable makes a significant difference (in my case, additional micro dynamics and a surprising increase in timbral truth), even for a sine wave clock, and that the last copper ethernet (in my case, between eR#2 and DAC) makes a significant difference too (more of everything, as they say).   I prefer to use cables from the same manufacturer, rather than trying to tune the system with different brands.  Excellent cables are often expensive but can be bought on the used market.

 

 

 

 

[richard_crl032]

7 hours ago, Mihaylov said:

breaks not only the moat in the ER, but also makes it pointless to use the ethernet interface at all (twisted pair or optics all the same) since it deprives ethernet of its main advantage, namely galvanic device isolation. Be very careful in the network configuration so as not to break the galvanic isolation and use a separate clock for each device on the local network, then it will be sufficient one switch instead of several.

Hi Mihaylov,

 

Indeed and took me a while to figure out avoiding breaking the moat with 2xERs and 2X oxco clocks.

 

I am using stock ER SMPS and it helps that I have 2 dedicated power lines in addition to stock power line as well as 2 isotransformers with both direct and isolated outputs for the 2 dedicated dedicated lines.

 

Once moat is not compromised, the ERs do their job aided by the oxco clocks and my system sounded the best by a significant margin. 🥳

 

Frankly I dun understand are moats are allowed compromised after buying ERs and their design intents.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard