Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[Mihaylov]

The ER uses clock generator Si5340. Here is its typical jitter from datasheet (circled in yellow):

 

 

Here is jitter of DAPU O55A calculated from its phase noise:

 

 

Do you need a clock with the best features for ER if the limit link still turns out to be Si5340? 

Here is jitter of Cybershaft:

 

[Superdad]

7 hours ago, Mihaylov said:

Do you need a clock with the best features for ER if the limit link still turns out to be Si5340? 

 

This is not correct.  First off, the Si5340 special sheets are just showing RMS jitter output with some XO (or crystal in your case--you cut off the top of the matrix showing with XO) of unknown performance.  So that's total jitter, including that of the unspecified clock or crystal. Have no idea why they do that as it makes the spec meaningless.  

John will chime in when he has a moment, but he tells me that the Si5430 tracks the phase-noise of the input reference extremely closely at low offsets from carrier (above 10KHz offset it gets a bit looser but for audio purpose that does not matter).

Somewhere (just not on Silicon Labs spec sheets) there are graphs showing actual performance tracking of these jitter-attenuating clock synthesizers.  They are VERY good.  Hence the use of a great external 10MHz reference (performing with at least-125dBc/Hz or better at 10Hz offset) can be heard and appreciated. 

[mfaoro]

Last month you gave me some good feedback on a network/power diagram. Thank you.

 

I figured I’d reply with a revised diagram but it took me a month and I finally just drew it. Do y’all see any issues with moat (or other) issues?

 

red=power

blue=network

 

I noted A/B sides of Etherregen.

 

 

 

[scolley]

On 8/8/2021 at 12:52 PM, Qstik said:

OK - after 4 days of continuous burn-in and a chance for more critical listening, I have to modify my 4th result above.  The Mini-Circuits BLP-10.7+ 50 ohm in series with the Fairview Microwave 50 to 75 ohm Matching Pad is now my preferred combination to filter the 10 MHz clock signal going into my ER.  I now have the best combination of overall musicality, micro-dynamics, fidelity of sound staging, and tonal separation.  I'm guessing that the capacitors in the Mini-Circuits LPF responded well to the burn-in process.

Thank you for posting this. I tried one of the Fairview pads you provided the link to, and the increase in clarity and detail was immediately audible.

 

In fact, I inserted the pad between the cable and the ER (MiniCircuits filter at OCXO end of the cable) and walked away from the hifi. I’d jostled my Emperor Signature clock a good bit, and wanted to give it time to settle. But around 15 minutes later, while in the next room, someone turned the stereo on, and continued the track I had been previously playing. Though in an adjacent room, the added clarity was quite audible. Unmistakable with anything including cymbals or high hats.

 

Thank you for this excellent suggestion. Well worth the minor cost.

[Qstik]

3 hours ago, scolley said:

Thank you for this excellent suggestion. Well worth the minor cost.

Glad that at least one other person hears the same things I do.  That's not always guaranteed with differences between systems.

 

Doing an A-B with and without the Matching Pad is easy.  Once the ER is switched to the MC mode and powered up with a Master Clock signal cable attached, it detects the MC and stays in that mode even if the MC signal cable is disconnected.  You can quickly move the Matching Pad in and out of the circuit for A-B comparisons.  Of course, I always stop music playback before disconnecting the cable.  My Spotify desktop app has a playback file buffer, so I always change songs before going back to the one(s) I use for A-B comparisons.

[Qstik]

On 8/13/2021 at 9:06 PM, Qstik said:

My Spotify desktop app has a playback file buffer, so I always change songs before going back to the one(s) I use for A-B comparisons.

Correction:  The playback file buffer settings are in Volumio (General Playback Options), not in the Spotify client.  They are buffer size and percent file to buffer before playback starts.

[audiojerry]

Sorry to intrude on those who have taken this discussion to higher levels beyond my understanding and interest in this topic, but I was hoping to find a basic approach for adding an external clock in front of my ER.  I read John Swenson's white paper and read portions of the long thread on this topic, but I am not able to absorb all 64 pages of contributions.

 

My rudimentary understanding is that unless you get a costly squarewave clock and proper filter match, you would better off using a much less expensive 10mhz sinewave clock using a filter such as the Mini-Circuits BLP-10.7+, or Crystek CLPFL-0010-BNC. But I have not seen any recommendation or concurrence for a reasonbly price sinewave clock. 

 

The only only 10mhz clock I have been able to find was a Crystek CCSS-945, but I don't see it for sale anywhere including Digi-Key. 

 

Any advice or recommendations would be appreciated and whether the effort to proceed is even worthwhile.

 

I would love to hear an announcement from Uptone introducing a new external clock for the ER. 😉

[Mihaylov]

1 hour ago, audiojerry said:

But I have not seen any recommendation or concurrence for a reasonbly price sinewave clock. 

The first half of the topic is about such clocks from BG7TBL.

[PYP]

4 hours ago, audiojerry said:

My rudimentary understanding is that unless you get a costly squarewave clock and proper filter match, you would better off using a much less expensive 10mhz sinewave clock using a filter such as the Mini-Circuits BLP-10.7+, or Crystek CLPFL-0010-BNC. But I have not seen any recommendation or concurrence for a reasonbly price sinewave clock. 

General consensus seems to be that the buying an inexpensive Chinese clock is rolling the dice -- you may or may not receive one that measures well.  AfterDark clocks cost significantly more, but you get proven performance (print out of your unit's specs) and several models are significantly less (one is priced at $565) than something like a Cybershaft (approximately $1,400 and up).  

 

AfterDark has its own forum here on AS.  They are physically located in Hong Kong.  You could also contact these folks in the states who sell AfterDark clocks and discuss what you are looking for:  https://ctronicmusic.com/shop/ols/products/afterdark-project-clayx-giesemann-ocxo-10mhz-reference-master-clock   When you consider total price and getting the most out of the clock, you will want to use a LPS but that could be purchased later if budget is an immediate concern.  Happy hunting.   

[MartinT]

For an inexpensive experiment, you could try a BG7TBL to hear what it's all about.

 

Next up would be the AfterDark units, which I can thoroughly recommend as I run two of them.  Choose your price level and go for it.  Sinewave is fine and they don't need filters.

[audiojerry]

 

On 8/16/2021 at 3:26 PM, audiojerry said:

I would love to hear an announcement from Uptone introducing a new external clock for the ER. 😉

I was trying to nudge Superdad to comment on whether Uptone was considering or even planning to build their own

external device.

 

Pinging Superdad. PING   PING   PING

[PYP]

15 minutes ago, audiojerry said:

 

I was trying to nudge Superdad to comment on whether Uptone was considering or even planning to build their own

external device.

 

Pinging Superdad. PING   PING   PING

Alex has answered that a few times with a "No."  On the other hand, John has the mini-Tokamak-powered USB in prototype and has said from an undisclosed location (likely underground) that:  We have achieved Q greater than 1.  I'm not sure what that means, but I'm assuming it is good news since you can not only power your stereo with the UpTone mini-T (as they are calling it) but also your neighborhood.  And you didn't hear it from me!

[Johnnydev]

20 hours ago, MartinT said:

Sinewave is fine and they don't need filters.

Hi MartinT

Did you tried with and without the filters? And what is the difference in SQ.

[MartinT]

On 8/20/2021 at 7:45 AM, Johnnydev said:

 

Did you tried with and without the filters? And what is the difference in SQ.

 

Yes, and the filter made the AD unreliable and worsened sound quality.

[Johnnydev]

1 hour ago, MartinT said:

 

Yes, and the filter made the AD unreliable and worsened sound quality.

Thanks, and what DC cable are you using?

[MartinT]

7 hours ago, Johnnydev said:

Thanks, and what DC cable are you using?

 

For that AD, an MCRU copper DC cable. For my better AD feeding the Mutec, a Coherent DC cable.

 

[Johnnydev]

11 hours ago, MartinT said:

 

For that AD, an MCRU copper DC cable. For my better AD feeding the Mutec, a Coherent DC cable.

 

sorry, I asked the wrong question, I meant which BNC cable are you using?

[MartinT]

7 hours ago, Johnnydev said:

sorry, I asked the wrong question, I meant which BNC cable are you using?

 

Hah!  Both are Belden 4694R, very good clock cables.

[sakso136]

Hi guys,i want to know what is your thinking on my findings.

 

My dac is spdif input only and i m using singxer u1 ghent modded 5v powered by dxp double regulated ps for usb conversion from my server.

 

My ER is powered by the same dxp .

 

I was thinking to go with AD clock the EDC with 3 output to clock su1 and ER.

I just discovered that entelope master clocks have usb input,spdif output,master and word clock out( many).

I m not very knowledgeable on difference between master and work clock thus my inquiriy for help here 

They have ocxhd and 10 mx clocks.

This all in one solution,(usb/ spdif conversion with master clock to clock ER )will make me the happy  if it is at the level of AD clocks,cause avoiding 3 boxes ( su1+ dxp+ AD CLOCK) less coloration,less electronics!

THE TOP ONE IS 6,5 K the lower one 1.5 k.

 Thks

 

https://en.antelopeaudio.com/products/10mx/

https://en.antelopeaudio.com/products/ocx-hd/

 

[R1200CL]

16 hours ago, sakso136 said:

I was thinking to go with AD clock the EDC with 3 output to clock su1 and ER.

Your SU1 doesn’t have 10 MHz clock input. The SU2 has. It’s a good upgrade. Especially with a King AfterDark clock. Mutec (the USB / SPDIF converter) may be an option at twice the price. 
 

I recommend you not to purchase the AfterDark 3 output clock. And no square wave clock from him. Only sine wave. Then it’s better with 2 clocks, or even start with a splitter. I’m using splitter.

Have Adrian give you the phase noise numbers upfront for the King.

 

Also, I think the way you have powered things, you may break the moat of the EtherRegen. 
In general EtherRegen should not share power with items further upstream in the chain towards the DAC if it’s in a A>B configuration. 

The SU2 and AfterDark King both have 50 ohm, which is good. So does the splitter Adrian sells.

 

The top one clock you linked to has horrible phase noise numbers. 
1Hz ≤-70 dBc/Hz
10Hz ≤-87 dBc/Hz

The most expensive Mutec in same price range is way better. 

 

[sakso136]

Thks a lot for the response and heads up.

 

I just realised that the su1 is just wclock output.

By the way does that mean i can clock another device by the su1???

 

Ok,i see the su2 accept 10 mghz clock input ,and also the su6 doesnt accept the 10 mghz input( thinking of the su6 ,maybe it s better )

 

I was thinking also of the audiogd i20he,but a friend told me the amanero usb input is no go.

 

Fyi,su1 and ER are powered seperately by 2 seperate dxp and 2 ps.

 

Another question,my ER is the normal one ,i think the 75 ohm,so i should start with AD king 50 ohm ,splitter,2 bnc cables and clock both ER and the su2 or other as a start ,then may be add another AD king further the route?

 

Thks a lot 

 

[R1200CL]

59 minutes ago, sakso136 said:

By the way does that mean i can clock another device by the su1???

Yes, but NOT the EtherRegen. Word clock is different. And it’s not 10mhz. Also I have no idea of the quality of that output. Where would you like to use it and why ?
 

59 minutes ago, sakso136 said:

so i should start with AD king 50 ohm ,splitter,2 bnc cables and clock both ER and the su2

Yes, that’s what I’m doing. I don’t think EtherRegen is 75 ohm is an issue. 
You highly likely to break the moat this way. But it may not be an issue. Use of LPS 1.2 isolating power, may reduce the risk. 
 

59 minutes ago, sakso136 said:

then may be add another AD king further the route?

Yes, that’s what I’m considering. But since I’m using the EtherRegen in a B>A configuration, I’m not sure how much effect the clock has in my case. 
 

Also, don’t forget a modified AfterDark  Mutec as an more expensive alternative to the SU2. I have no idea if it is a better USB/SPDIF converter.

The SU2 is on sale this week. 
https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/singxer-su-2-dsd1024-usb-digital-interface-femtosecond-clock-interface

 

[R1200CL]

Just like to add that isolation of items may better be discussed in the isolation tread. 
 

In my opinion such things need supported drawings, in order understand if the moat of EtherRegen is broken or not. I’m not even 100% sure I’m doing it myself 😀

[LewinskiH01]

Hello.

 

Today I tried to use my LPS-1.2 to power the BG7BTL and had an error. I believe others have used this combination without problem so I'm wondering what might be wrong?

 

The LPS-1.2 is set to 12V, powered by the supplied Uptone SMPS, connected to the BG7BTL thru a Ghent DC cable. Upon turning on the LPS the led goes from red to orange and when it wants to turn green the power and alarm leds on the BG7BTL blink briefly and go off and the led on LPS blinks red, and this cycle continues for as long as keep the LPS on. The BG7BTL output wasn't connected, if that makes a difference. 

 

Why might this be happening? 

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, LewinskiH01 said:

Upon turning on the LPS the led goes from red to orange and when it wants to turn green the power and alarm leds on the BG7BTL blink briefly and go off and the led on LPS blinks red, and this cycle continues for as long as keep the LPS on.

 

The UltraCap LPS-1.2 is simply reporting that the connect load (your clock) is exceeding the LPS-1.2’s 1.14A limit.

The BG7TBL clocks vary in their circuitry and OCXO used, so that explains why some people have been able to power theirs with an LPS1.2.

By the way, it I s during initial power-on—when the clock oven is heating up—that the most current is drawn. The load settles down quite a bit after a while.