Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[Superdad]

31 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

@lxgreen

But you shipped everything back already without an accept from Adrian ?

Please stay out of this Andreas.

[mourip]

1 hour ago, Iving said:

 

Your approach always makes a lot of sense to me Paul.

eR is about £600.

Mutec MC-3+ USB is about £8-850.

My DAC is a Convert-2. I'm very happy with it. I don't see my changing it until/unless some hypothetical awakening regards DSP/heavy CPU work for HQP. (That said, I'm appreciating HQP for PCM @ 176.4 thru to the Convert-2.) It would be a major transformation involving PC overhaul to upgrade my DAC. Plus if I sold it I'd take a hit. Long and short - DAC upgrade for me would be a new Chapter and big bucks - if it ever happens. I'd probably invest in a good record deck with the same money.

I could spend eR/Mutec type money on my PC front end. e.g. feed CPU independently from my PH SR7T which would entail a new PS for the eR. Or a JCAT Net Card/XE to replace my Intel X540-T2 +/or further PS for that.

I think a second Mutec reclocker would come first - with LPS mods + LPSs for both Mutecs. And maybe mod my RedNet too + PS. (You moved on from RedNet iirc?). In the context of the post to which I replied, I'd go for 2 Mutecs rather than 2 eRs to use up the spare output on my AD Triple - and I'd be happy with that unless my ears told me otherwise.

I thought Alex might come out of the woodwork, taking the opportunity to declare his new Uptone super-filter-timer-power supply thingy - probably generating a SQ advantage of more than 2 eRs anyway. No chance of that then ;-)

 

Well thought out reply. I really liked AOIP/Rednet. It gave me some of the best music I have had. I ran into an issue with the D16 dropping it's connection regularly and just could not get it straightened out. Now I have server>ER>NUC>USB> Mutec USB>AESEBU>Denefrips Terminator with REF10 clocking the ER and Mutec. I am very happy. Details in sig. I do suggest modifying the Mutec to use an LPS. It is pretty simple with basic DIY skills.

[Iving]

1 minute ago, mourip said:

I ran into an issue with the D16 dropping it's connection regularly and just could not get it straightened out.

 

Never had that but all I do is play ripped Red Book 44.1/16 > 176.4/32.

 

2 minutes ago, mourip said:

Now I have Denefrips Terminator

 

I noticed that!

 

3 minutes ago, mourip said:

I do suggest modifying the Mutec to use an LPS. It is pretty simple with basic DIY skills.

 

One of these days :-)

[mfaoro]

15 minutes ago, mourip said:

 

Well thought out reply. I really liked AOIP/Rednet. It gave me some of the best music I have had. I ran into an issue with the D16 dropping it's connection regularly and just could not get it straightened out. Now I have server>ER>NUC>USB> Mutec USB>AESEBU>Denefrips Terminator with REF10 clocking the ER and Mutec. I am very happy. Details in sig. I do suggest modifying the Mutec to use an LPS. It is pretty simple with basic DIY skills.

Have you seen directions or know of anyone who will modify the REF 10 to use an LPS?

[Iving]

47 minutes ago, mfaoro said:

Have you seen directions or know of anyone who will modify the REF 10 to use an LPS?

 

If Paul has no suggestions I imagine @Clockmeister is your man. Tony is in UK. If you are not, Tony may still have good advice.

[Superdad]

59 minutes ago, mfaoro said:

Have you seen directions or know of anyone who will modify the REF 10 to use an LPS?

Mutec REF10 already has a fully integrated linear power supply (not an SMPS as in MC-3+ USB). 

[Qstik]

To bring up an old topic but with a twist, my Mini-Circuits BLP-10.7+ 50 ohm which I installed in late June started failing badly a week ago.  Main issues were loss of overall musicality and, in particular, collapsed sound stage.  Right away I placed an order with Mini-Circuits for a replacement.  It quickly arrived several days ago thanks to same day shipping.  While I was at it, I also ordered this impedance matching pad:  https://www.fairviewmicrowave.com/images/productPDF/SI1500.pdf  It arrived today - also same day shipping.   I ordered the matching pad because I was concerned about impedance mismatch reflections within the 50 ohm AfterDark Huber+Suhner cable between my 50 ohm AfterDark Emperor Double Crown Master Clock and my 75 ohm clock input ER.  I know John Swenson said matching impedances was unnecessary with the Mini-Circuits LPF, but call me a cynic - I figured maybe I was unlucky with cable length/construction and that reflections might be stacking upon reflections.  For $71 + taxes and shipping, I figured "what the heck", let's find out.  Today I've run listening sessions in four configurations - 1) straight cable with no LPF or Matching Pad, 2) LPF only, 3) Matching pad only, and 4) both LPF and Matching Pad in series.  Pad was attached nearest to the ER.

 

What I noticed right away was that one musical characteristic seemed to quickly differentiate the configurations well.  It was the sound of the wires of snare drums or the sound of cymbals in certain recordings.   I used "Fugue in G Minor" by Jacques Lousier Trio and "Shape of My Heart" by Carmen Cuesta-Loeb.

 

My results briefly:

1.  Straight cable - harsh cymbals, indistinct sound of snare drum wires.  Once I picked up on it, it's hard to ignore the poor sound quality.

2.  Mini-Circuit LPF only - cymbals and snare drums not as harsh as straight cable, but still 80% problematic for my listening

3.  Matching Pad only - my new listening reference - cymbals, bells, triangles are now more naturally rendered and just plainly more musical to my ears.  There might be other sonic improvements which will be revealed with proper break-in and more detailed listening; but at this point, I don't detect any degradations.

4.  LPF and Matching Pad in series - no significant improvement over Matching Pad only

 

Conclusions:

1.  Mini-Circuit BLP-10.7 devices surely have capacitors in them, which in my case is the suspected cause of early failure.

2.  I may be lucky not to have any significant AM in my master clock signal since the Matching Pad only seems to work so well.

3.  Impedance matching may be desirable with certain master clock, cable construction, and cable length combinations.

4.  I expect that the Matching Pad device should not require much in the way of break-in since as far as I know, it should only have resistors in it (yes, I know that parasitic inductance and capacitance can be a problem with resistors at very high frequencies).  The Matching Pad I used is rated up to 2 GHz, so it should be good for this application.

5.  There are less expensive 50 ohm to 75 ohm Matching Pads to be found on the internet - I just ordered the first one I found.  Others may sound better (or worse).

6.  As always - YMMV.

 

I will update my comments if further listening reveals anything worth mentioning.

[AfterDark.]

3 hours ago, Qstik said:

To bring up an old topic but with a twist, my Mini-Circuits BLP-10.7+ 50 ohm which I installed in late June started failing badly a week ago.  Main issues were loss of overall musicality and, in particular, collapsed sound stage.  Right away I placed an order with Mini-Circuits for a replacement.  It quickly arrived several days ago thanks to same day shipping.  While I was at it, I also ordered this impedance matching pad:  https://www.fairviewmicrowave.com/images/productPDF/SI1500.pdf  It arrived today - also same day shipping.   I ordered the matching pad because I was concerned about impedance mismatch reflections within the 50 ohm AfterDark Huber+Suhner cable between my 50 ohm AfterDark Emperor Double Crown Master Clock and my 75 ohm clock input ER.  I know John Swenson said matching impedances was unnecessary with the Mini-Circuits LPF, but call me a cynic - I figured maybe I was unlucky with cable length/construction and that reflections might be stacking upon reflections.  For $71 + taxes and shipping, I figured "what the heck", let's find out.  Today I've run listening sessions in four configurations - 1) straight cable with no LPF or Matching Pad, 2) LPF only, 3) Matching pad only, and 4) both LPF and Matching Pad in series.  Pad was attached nearest to the ER.

 

What I noticed right away was that one musical characteristic seemed to quickly differentiate the configurations well.  It was the sound of the wires of snare drums or the sound of cymbals in certain recordings.   I used "Fugue in G Minor" by Jacques Lousier Trio and "Shape of My Heart" by Carmen Cuesta-Loeb.

 

My results briefly:

1.  Straight cable - harsh cymbals, indistinct sound of snare drum wires.  Once I picked up on it, it's hard to ignore the poor sound quality.

2.  Mini-Circuit LPF only - cymbals and snare drums not as harsh as straight cable, but still 80% problematic for my listening

3.  Matching Pad only - my new listening reference - cymbals, bells, triangles are now more naturally rendered and just plainly more musical to my ears.  There might be other sonic improvements which will be revealed with proper break-in and more detailed listening; but at this point, I don't detect any degradations.

4.  LPF and Matching Pad in series - no significant improvement over Matching Pad only

 

Conclusions:

1.  Mini-Circuit BLP-10.7 devices surely have capacitors in them, which in my case is the suspected cause of early failure.

2.  I may be lucky not to have any significant AM in my master clock signal since the Matching Pad only seems to work so well.

3.  Impedance matching may be desirable with certain master clock, cable construction, and cable length combinations.

4.  I expect that the Matching Pad device should not require much in the way of break-in since as far as I know, it should only have resistors in it (yes, I know that parasitic inductance and capacitance can be a problem with resistors at very high frequencies).  The Matching Pad I used is rated up to 2 GHz, so it should be good for this application.

5.  There are less expensive 50 ohm to 75 ohm Matching Pads to be found on the internet - I just ordered the first one I found.  Others may sound better (or worse).

6.  As always - YMMV.

 

I will update my comments if further listening reveals anything worth mentioning.

 

Hi! Qstik,

 

For matching pad from 50ohm to 75 ohm, we found a very good quality one from Huber+Suhner. 

 

Thanks and have a nice weekend.

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark. 

 

[Qstik]

4 hours ago, AfterDark. said:

For matching pad from 50ohm to 75 ohm, we found a very good quality one from Huber+Suhner. 

Thanks, Adrian.  I'll check into it.

[dbastin]

12 hours ago, richard_crl032 said:

A mutec ref10, an AD triples and 2x ERs with presumably some nice LPS and cablings usd7-10k ?? 

 

Hope player/server is in the league of usd15 Antipodes K50 or at least usd10k as well as an reference DAC already of same expense .. else I cannot fathom the expenses of getting streaming route optimised before components.

 

Cheers.

 

I have been on quite a journey with ethernet for audio.

 

I recently re-discovered wifi.  My past experience using ISP provided devices (ie. Basic) was that wired ethernet was superior, by far.  But having installed Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X SFP, and TP Link WAP, both powered via power conditioner and excellent LPS and power cables, wifi is equivalent to $1000s worth of daisy chained ERs and Gigafoils.  Interstingly it improved further re-inserting ERs in the chain. So, my ethernet us performing extremely well.

 

ISP > ER B - ER A > fibre > router > Antipodes EX > ER A - ER B > WAP - - - > Devialet 440 Pro.

 

Ethernet cables are Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Ref, Shunyata Sigma and JCAT Signature Gold, except ISP to ER is generic Cat 5e UTP.

 

Antipodes EX is my server/roon core.  I was using Auralic Aries G1 as 'player', which was better via wifi than wired by a significant margin (its WiFi is a significant advantage over Antipodes players).  And G1 was better still using Galileo SX.  However, wifi direct to Devialet Pro was better still.  Yes, its Core Infinity outperforms G1 with Galileo SX!

 

So I feel its fair to say my ethernet and digi front end in a high league.

 

I could put a Gigafoilv4 back in the chain, however I suspect a master clock even of like cost will deliver a greater benefit.  However, I am curious if a dual output clock as master for 2 x ERs would be worthwhile.

 

As you can see, there is no place for Mutec USB reclocker in my set up.

 

I am tempted to explore how to give the EdgeRouter and WAP a master clock input too. Although Id guess that is not 10MHz.

[R1200CL]

On 8/5/2021 at 3:19 PM, AfterDark. said:

We have planned to purchase another Mutec MC3 (with or without USB) to cascade with the existing Mutec MC-3+USB. Both unit will be moded, the connection will be AES output (First Mutec MC-3+USB) then 2nd unit will connected to AES Input, both units optimise with 10M Master Clock. Then final AES output will connect to DAC. This should improve like addeding a reclock device, we expected music will be more refined. 

Adrian

 

It would be interesting to know how an SU-2 upfront the Mutec will do. As you probably know, the SU-2 has an external 50 ohm 10 MHz clock input. Perfect for your product line 😀. 
The SU-2 is also more reasonable priced and have already a LPS inside. 
 

I find my SU-2 with your King quite good. 
 

Maybe my next upgrade is a Mutec or a better clock. I’m investigating. 

[R1200CL]

On 7/21/2021 at 11:01 PM, jean-michel6 said:

Have you ever used a clock signal splitter to clock two devices with only one master clock .

 

On 7/22/2021 at 8:56 AM, AfterDark. said:

We tested the adaptor, this is only for 10M Master Reference Clock at Imedance matching with 50ohms signals.

 

It is really important to match the Imedance for all connectors and cables. So we found the adpator can degrade the sounding if the 10M Master Clock signal is on 75ohms instead of 50ohms. We suggested MartinT not to use it. So his 2 clocks system is way better when there is the ER moat issue. 

I’m using this Cybershaft splitter. 
In the beginning it was problematic, as I also added the Mini Circuits 50 ohm filters. Got dropouts. 
Now it’s been working fine for long time. 
 

The splitter is 50 ohm. So is clock and the SU-2. Not my EtherRegen. I don’t think I tried only applying the filter on EtherRegen in this scenario. 

 

I think the splitter is a possible reasonable way to achieve clocking on two devices. (Can’t remember price now). 
 

@MartinT

I understand you’re using two clocks now. Can the Mutec output 10 MHz? How are you using the Mutec ?

Do you happen to know Mutec’s phase noise numbers?

 

As you see from schematics below, my use of splitter is highly likely to break some isolation. However it may not be a huge issue, since Uptone’s isolating power is in use everywhere possible.

 

I would like to hear your and others opinions of how I could refine and upgrade my digital chain any further. 
It’s obvious a better clock will do. But maybe reclock my AES/EBU using Mutec is something to consider. 
 

What isn’t obvious is if a second King will help in present configuration. (Only purpose is to remove the splitter, and better isolation, I think). Adrian has finally confirmed he has the King in stock. 

@Iving

Your previous answer is interesting. Dual AES/EBU reclocking using the Mutec. I guess the Mutec is the only AES/EBU reclocker available with external 10Mhz input, anyone know ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Iving]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

 

I’m using this Cybershaft splitter. 
In the beginning it was problematic, as I also added the Mini Circuits 50 ohm filters. Got dropouts. 
Now it’s been working fine for long time. 
 

The splitter is 50 ohm. So is clock and the SU-2. Not my EtherRegen. I don’t think I tried only applying the filter on EtherRegen in this scenario. 

 

I think the splitter is a possible reasonable way to achieve clocking on two devices. (Can’t remember price now). 
 

@MartinT

I understand you’re using two clocks now. Can the Mutec output 10 MHz? How are you using the Mutec ?

Do you happen to know Mutec’s phase noise numbers?

 

As you see from schematics below, my use of splitter is highly likely to break some isolation. However it may not be a huge issue, since Uptone’s isolating power is in use everywhere possible.

 

I would like to hear your and others opinions of how I could refine and upgrade my digital chain any further. 
It’s obvious a better clock will do. But maybe reclock my AES/EBU using Mutec is something to consider. 
 

What isn’t obvious is if a second King will help in present configuration. (Only purpose is to remove the splitter, and better isolation, I think). Adrian has finally confirmed he has the King in stock. 

@Iving

Your previous answer is interesting. Dual AES/EBU reclocking using the Mutec. I guess the Mutec is the only AES/EBU reclocker available with external 10Mhz input, anyone know ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

fwiw since you ask ...

- Perhaps you might think about solid foundations and gradual improvements rather than compromises and ostensible value for money. As long as I am buying the right stuff, I would rather have one good pair of stout shoes than two pairs of plimsolls. If I can afford two pairs of stout shoes later - all well and good. If I can't - it doesn't matter.
- I don't stream. I don't use USB. I use RedNet/Dante. So my system and potential eR moat issues are atypical. Even if I had your system, I would not compromise the eR moat under any circumstances - what is the point of it unless you exploit its moat.
- wrt clocks I would not tolerate impedance mismatches anywhere. I would not use adaptors or splitters.
Summary: I would correct first, then consider upgrades one at a time - making no compromises along the way. If this means buying more than one clock - so be it. Maybe you can sell what you have if necessary/makes sense and get a Triple. imo the AD Triple is good value even if I would prefer a Mutec Ref 10/SE 120. Buy the power supplies you need - as you can afford them. I might consider splitting a DC output as a temporary arrangement - as long as strictly no eR moat violation.

The Mutec MC-3+ USB is fine on its own - clocked internally - and it doesn't have to have a PS upgrade, although it's widely reported to be improved with such. I don't have any specs for it. I can tell you its reputation as an AES re-clocker is unassailable. I expect you already know that. If you do use an external clock, well then 75 ohms. I may be right in saying that external clocking unleashes its capacity as a WC as well as a re-clocker. I use it this way. It is the only AES re-clocker that can be externally clocked with 10 MHz that I know of. It doesn't output or relay a 10 MHz clock signal.

Eventually I'm probably heading towards a second Mutec - mainly to double re-clock. I'm going on third party reports. They are so widespread, consistent, match my use and have emanated from people I judge well - that it's overwhelmingly likely I'll get a good result.

Trust your own instincts then you have only yourself to blame. As you have asked for advice - drop compromises. Good shoes only. I read somewhere, sometime that women judge men by their shoes. Does that help? Wouldn't help me any more, but I'm past caring ;-)

 

[MartinT]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

@MartinT

I understand you’re using two clocks now. Can the Mutec output 10 MHz? How are you using the Mutec ?

Do you happen to know Mutec’s phase noise numbers?

 

Yes, I'm using an AD King to externally clock the ER, then an AD Emperor Triple Crown to clock the Mutec MC-3+ USB.  I don't know the Mutec's phase noise numbers but the external clock certainly improves its performance.

 

The Mutec does not output 10MHz.

 

My Mutec is modded for use with an external 5V power supply (a Coherent QP-1) and also has other components swapped for improved performance.

[R1200CL]

@MartinT

Thanks for replying. How is the Mutec implemented in your chain ?

 

Hi @Iving

Thank you for long answer. I need some time to think and understand everything 😀

 

[R1200CL]

59 minutes ago, Iving said:

I read somewhere, sometime that women judge men by their shoes. Does that help?

He, he, you (or the female reading this tread) should see my blue shoes. Bought in Paris many ears ago. Used twice 😂

 

1 hour ago, Iving said:

imo the AD Triple is good value

You do understand this is also braking any moat ?

 

1 hour ago, Iving said:

Eventually I'm probably heading towards a second Mutec - mainly to double re-clock

Thanks. Ya, I will remembering the shoe metaphor. (And let’s not start a tread about women and shoes). 

[Iving]

12 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

He, he, you (or the female reading this tread) should see my blue shoes. Bought in Paris many ears ago. Used twice 😂

 

 

lol

 

13 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

You do understand this is also braking any moat?

 

Surely not if all outputs feed devices one side moat only (as my case).

 

14 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

(And let’s not start a tread about women and shoes). 

 

Understood and agreed!

[MartinT]

4 hours ago, R1200CL said:

@MartinT

Thanks for replying. How is the Mutec implemented in your chain ?

 

 

[Qstik]

On 8/6/2021 at 5:43 PM, Qstik said:

My results briefly:

1.  Straight cable - harsh cymbals, indistinct sound of snare drum wires.  Once I picked up on it, it's hard to ignore the poor sound quality.

2.  Mini-Circuit LPF only - cymbals and snare drums not as harsh as straight cable, but still 80% problematic for my listening

3.  Matching Pad only - my new listening reference - cymbals, bells, triangles are now more naturally rendered and just plainly more musical to my ears.  There might be other sonic improvements which will be revealed with proper break-in and more detailed listening; but at this point, I don't detect any degradations.

4.  LPF and Matching Pad in series - no significant improvement over Matching Pad only

OK - after 4 days of continuous burn-in and a chance for more critical listening, I have to modify my 4th result above.  The Mini-Circuits BLP-10.7+ 50 ohm in series with the Fairview Microwave 50 to 75 ohm Matching Pad is now my preferred combination to filter the 10 MHz clock signal going into my ER.  I now have the best combination of overall musicality, micro-dynamics, fidelity of sound staging, and tonal separation.  I'm guessing that the capacitors in the Mini-Circuits LPF responded well to the burn-in process.

[PYP]

On 8/6/2021 at 2:43 PM, Qstik said:

To bring up an old topic but with a twist, my Mini-Circuits BLP-10.7+ 50 ohm which I installed in late June started failing badly a week ago.  Main issues were loss of overall musicality and, in particular, collapsed sound stage.  Right away I placed an order with Mini-Circuits for a replacement.  It quickly arrived several days ago thanks to same day shipping.  While I was at it, I also ordered this impedance matching pad:  https://www.fairviewmicrowave.com/images/productPDF/SI1500.pdf  It arrived today - also same day shipping.   I ordered the matching pad because I was concerned about impedance mismatch reflections within the 50 ohm AfterDark Huber+Suhner cable between my 50 ohm AfterDark Emperor Double Crown Master Clock and my 75 ohm clock input ER.  I know John Swenson said matching impedances was unnecessary with the Mini-Circuits LPF, but call me a cynic - I figured maybe I was unlucky with cable length/construction and that reflections might be stacking upon reflections.  For $71 + taxes and shipping, I figured "what the heck", let's find out.  Today I've run listening sessions in four configurations - 1) straight cable with no LPF or Matching Pad, 2) LPF only, 3) Matching pad only, and 4) both LPF and Matching Pad in series.  Pad was attached nearest to the ER.

 

My results briefly:

1.  Straight cable - harsh cymbals, indistinct sound of snare drum wires.  Once I picked up on it, it's hard to ignore the poor sound quality.

 

Interesting.  What clock cable are you using?  

[R1200CL]

I’m planning to verify my clocks. I don’t have access a Symmetricom 5125A. I know the Symmetricom 5125A can be rented. Not an option for me. 
 

My question to the community is if the HP4395A is sufficient ?

https://www.digchip.com/datasheets/download_datasheet.php?id=2844459&part-number=4395A

 

I also have access to HP3563A and HP4195A, but I think the HP / Agilent 4395A is my best option.

 

 

 

[Qstik]

6 hours ago, PYP said:

Interesting.  What clock cable are you using?  

The 50 ohm Huber+Suhner cable as supplied by AfterDark with their Master Clocks.  I believe it is 1m long.

[Oggo]

On 8/6/2021 at 7:46 AM, R1200CL said:

The reason for this is most likely cause the clock is braking the moat if used several places. 

Before I daisy-chained 2 ER, I had tested the  BG7TBL on 1 ER - SQ was degraded too. Seems as if the chinese clock cannot improve SQ of ER...

[R1200CL]

40 minutes ago, Oggo said:

Before I daisy-chained 2 ER, I had tested the  BG7TBL on 1 ER - SQ was degraded too. Seems as if the chinese clock cannot improve SQ of ER...

The quality of the BG7TBL is a lottery. 
 

We’re paying Adrian for an exercise to select the best among many cheap similar clocks. (And adding the case etc.). 
 

[Superdad]

21 hours ago, R1200CL said:

I’m planning to verify my clocks. I don’t have access a Symmetricom 5125A. I know the Symmetricom 5125A can be rented. Not an option for me. 
 

My question to the community is if the HP4395A is sufficient ?

https://www.digchip.com/datasheets/download_datasheet.php?id=2844459&part-number=4395A

 

I also have access to HP3563A and HP4195A, but I think the HP / Agilent 4395A is my best option.

You'll not get phase-noise plots out of those general-purpose spectrum analyzers.

 

Besides, each of your AfterDark clocks came with a individual phase-noise plot already. What more do you need?