Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[Oggo]

I have 2 ERs daisy-changed going a>b>a>b fed by 2 seperate Super3s. As a test, I have attached a BG7TBL (fed by its own LPS) to the second ER. Will it brake the moat, if connect a second output of the BG7TBL to the second ER? If yes, would there be any kind of difference, if I would run a>b>b>a?

[R1200CL]

36 minutes ago, Oggo said:

Will it brake the moat, if connect a second output of the BG7TBL to the second ER?

(I assume you men first EtherRegen).
You will probably break the last EtherRegen moat, as you “short” the moat from first EtherRegen B side to the second EtherRegen B side. But if that matters is another question. 
 

36 minutes ago, Oggo said:

If yes, would there be any kind of difference, if I would run a>b>b>a?

Yes, cause both B sides is on same “domain”, so there isn’t any moat to break. 

However my experience is that reverse the EtherRegen isn’t a good solution, as the moat degrades the phase noise. 

[Oggo]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

(I assume you men first EtherRegen).

 

Yes. First ER.

 

 

Quote

However my experience is that reverse the EtherRegen isn’t a good solution, as the moat degrades the phase noise. 

 

How would you go (abab, abba)? Separate clocks for both ERs? Stay with internal clocks?

 

[R1200CL]

50 minutes ago, Oggo said:

How would you go (abab, abba)? Separate clocks for both ERs? Stay with internal clocks?

Not knowing your endpoint, I would do ABAB, and probably only external clock last EtherRegen. 
 

So far I haven’t seen anyone posting about clocking each EtherRegen with separate clocks. But of cause, one can do, but it’s starting to get expensive. I suggest you purchase one AfterDark King 50 ohm, for your second EtherRegen. And have him add one of his stiff 50 ohm clock cables. 
 

Experiment with the BG7TBL on the first one. 

[Oggo]

Quote

I suggest you purchase one AfterDark King 50 ohm, for your second EtherRegen. 
 

Experiment with the BG7TBL on the first one. 

 Thanx for the advice.

[aubreybobb]

I have 2 ER and 1 SOTM switch in series with a dCS Network Bridge..  They all benefited hugely from external clocking.  They are all clocked off a single double emperor dCS version. 

 

The critical issue for me was the clock cables.  When I upgraded to custom clock cables from Aurealis (real world prices) the improvement was almost as much as the clock itself. The slightly negative effect of breaking the moat is swamped by the huge impact of the cables

 

I do ab ba because I need 2 outputs - audio and video.  

 

Best wishes

[PYP]

25 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Not knowing your endpoint, I would do ABAB, and probably only external clock last EtherRegen. 

My setup is ABAB with the second (last) eR using an external clock.  Two separate LPSs, as you have it, is an optimal setup.    I'm really enjoying the result.  

 

Since my clock only has one output, I couldn't experiment with adding a clock signal to the first eR, but since you do have a second output, it is worth trying.  In my setup, the clock cable makes a significant difference and took a month to settle in.  Also, my clock took a month to stabilize.  If your setup reacts in a similar way, a quick change may not give you the answer you want.  

[LewinskiH01]

32 minutes ago, PYP said:

My setup is ABAB with the second (last) eR using an external clock.  Two separate LPSs, as you have it, is an optimal setup.    I'm really enjoying the result.  

 

Since my clock only has one output, I couldn't experiment with adding a clock signal to the first eR, but since you do have a second output, it is worth trying.  In my setup, the clock cable makes a significant difference and took a month to settle in.  Also, my clock took a month to stabilize.  If your setup reacts in a similar way, a quick change may not give you the answer you want.  

 

Interesting. Do you think the 1-month stabilization had to do with breaking in or with temperature? I might have reacted too soon.

 

I have two eR ab-ab, 1st one with the supplied SMPS, the 2nd with LPS-1.2 both fed from a balanced power conditioner.

 

I tried the BG7BTL with stock SMPS: left it on for 3 days, then connected it to the 2nd eR and listened. Couldn't perceive any difference so I removed the BG7BTL. Maybe I didn't let it break in enough? 

 

FWIW my BG7BTL has only square wave outputs, purchased right before John made his paper public, so I kind of figured what I was (not) hearing was in line with his paper.

[PYP]

2 hours ago, LewinskiH01 said:

 

Interesting. Do you think the 1-month stabilization had to do with breaking in or with temperature? I might have reacted too soon.

 

I have two eR ab-ab, 1st one with the supplied SMPS, the 2nd with LPS-1.2 both fed from a balanced power conditioner.

 

I tried the BG7BTL with stock SMPS: left it on for 3 days, then connected it to the 2nd eR and listened. Couldn't perceive any difference so I removed the BG7BTL. Maybe I didn't let it break in enough? 

 

FWIW my BG7BTL has only square wave outputs, purchased right before John made his paper public, so I kind of figured what I was (not) hearing was in line with his paper.

I believe the stabilization of the clock is temperature related.  My only familiarity with clocks is with the Cybershaft, which is a very well-designed and well-implemented clock and one I can recommend (not inexpensive, however).  Improvement was heard before the 30-day period, but it improved significantly over time and then didn't change.  The final result was a significant improvement in musicality when used with a quality LPS (UpTone JS-2 is perfect) and especially when used with a quality clock cable.  I tried the filter John recommended for sine wave clocks and it worked well with a middling clock cable but wasn't needed with a very good cable (in fact, sounded better without the filter).   

 

The kind of inexpensive SMPS included with some gear never works well in my setup.  Even with two eRs, substituting a LPS for the included SMPS made major improvements as well as providing consistency.  With the SMPS, sometimes my setup would sound fine and then it wouldn't.  Not sure why.  A quality LPS doesn't cause that inconsistency, the high frequencies are always improved (well, all frequencies are better but my brain insists it can hear SMPS noise in the high frequencies) and there is more body to the music.  

 

I would think that three days is sufficient time to hear whether a clock makes a difference.   Seems to me you have already assessed whether that clock works in your setup and the answer appears to be no.  John did mention that some of those clocks measure better than others, therefore it is just chance if you get one that sounds good.  The Cybershaft and AD clocks are NOT like that since the manufacturers measure various clocks and choose only the ones that meet their standards.  That process takes skill and time, both reflected in the cost.  The clock is also sensitive to vibration, so a good case that is designed for the purpose is essential.  

[Oggo]

I have just compared my BG7TBL (with 3 square wave 75 ohm outputs) feeding 2 ERs (2 clock cables from 2 outputs) to feeding just the last of the 2 ERs (1 clock cable):

 

The second option gave better results. Sound had more depth and body. Highs were cleaner. Bass had more texture.

[aubreybobb]

14 hours ago, Oggo said:

I have just compared my BG7TBL (with 3 square wave 75 ohm outputs) feeding 2 ERs (2 clock cables from 2 outputs) to feeding just the last of the 2 ERs (1 clock cable):

 

The second option gave better results. Sound had more depth and body. Highs were cleaner. Bass had more texture.

I had a similar experience when using basic Belden and Vandamme cables.   I switched to Dueland custom cables from Aurealis (real world prices), at the suggestion of MattyW and voila!, huge improvement with both ER's being fed from the clock (double emperor).   The improvement was in spite of breaking the moat.

[sakso136]

Hi guys,

Please excuse my ignorance,but what doest jt mean braking the moAt on ER?

my set up is: edge routerx copper into wall---vodka aq --- optical module/ ifi ps---fiber ------ ER side A/ifi ps 12v into dxp ps 9v output---- side B of ER ---- sablon copper --- server.

Am i braking the moat?

Thks

[R1200CL]

20 minutes ago, sakso136 said:

Am i braking the moat?

No, cause the EtherRegen isn’t sharing its PS with anything and you’re also doing A>B, and you’re not using an external clock. 

 

Why don’t you use the EtherRegen at your endpoint ?

[sakso136]

5 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

No, cause the EtherRegen isn’t sharing its PS with anything and you’re also doing A>B, and you’re not using an external clock. 

 

Why don’t you use the EtherRegen at your endpoint ?

Thks alot!

I also have su1 feeding my dac wich i m planning to replace by su2 and planning also to buy a clock to feed both ER and su2.. is it going to brake the moat ,and is it a good idea?

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, sakso136 said:

Thks alot!

I also have su1 feeding my dac wich i m planning to replace by su2 and planning also to buy a clock to feed both ER and su2.. is it going to brake the moat ,and is it a good idea?

The SU-2 is nice. I have it myself with external clocking. 
 

The SU-2 has its own LPS. So there won’t be any loops going that way. 

Are you planning to use a 50 ohm splitter? And an AfterDark clock. 
 

This is what I’m doing.

 

But I don’t understand your network, cause presently your EtherRegen is going to a server and not an endpoint. So where is the SU-2 going to be ? Are you purchasing a second EtherRegen ? Or you have two already?

Buy 50 option, as both SU-2 and the Cybershaft splitter is 50 ohm. 
 

Yes, in theory you will wave some sort of possible unwanted loop via Y-splitted clock cable, but it may not be an issue at all. 

[sakso136]

My network:

Edge router x then via copper( in wall) --- wall ethernet ---- vodka aq ------OM powered by ifi 5 v -------fiber------ ER SIDE A------ sablon copper----server----- usb---- su1----coax---- dac 

My plan is su2 instead of su1 in order to receive clock input.

Clock choice between ref10 or AD emperor 3 output.

So either clock will feed seperately ER nd su2 

; )

[R1200CL]

38 minutes ago, sakso136 said:

AD emperor 3 output.

This clock doesn’t have isolated outputs, no matter what Adrian would claim. 

[R1200CL]

3 hours ago, sakso136 said:

My network:

Edge router x then via copper( in wall) --- wall ethernet ---- vodka aq ------OM powered by ifi 5 v -------fiber------ ER SIDE A------ sablon copper----server----- usb---- su1----coax---- dac 

My plan is su2 instead of su1 in order to receive clock input.

Clock choice between ref10 or AD emperor 3 output.

So either clock will feed seperately ER nd su2 

; )

I like to suggest to you adding a endpoint with the EtherRegen before it. Try to isolate the server from the DAC. 
 

A external clock will lift the SQ on the SU-2. 
 

If you like to add a clock as suggested, I think you must have the Ref10 with isolated outputs. Or two AfterDark clocks. 

[LewinskiH01]

23 hours ago, Oggo said:

I have just compared my BG7TBL (with 3 square wave 75 ohm outputs) feeding 2 ERs (2 clock cables from 2 outputs) to feeding just the last of the 2 ERs (1 clock cable):

 

The second option gave better results. Sound had more depth and body. Highs were cleaner. Bass had more texture.

 

Interesting. I also have two eRs and that same BG7BTL and had different results. What PSUs are you using for the eRs and BG7BTL? Which digital cable do you use? No mini-circuits filter, right?

[sakso136]

3 hours ago, R1200CL said:

I like to suggest to you adding a endpoint with the EtherRegen before it. Try to isolate the server from the DAC. 
 

A external clock will lift the SQ on the SU-2. 
 

If you like to add a clock as suggested, I think you must have the Ref10 with isolated outputs. Or two AfterDark clocks. 

Thks for the reply.

I hear you on everything except the  server isolation from dac 

The server feed by usb xe the su1 ( or su2) wich reclock and feed the dac via coax .

What do you suggest as endpoint and ER before it ? 

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, sakso136 said:

usb xe

https://jcat.eu/product/usb-card-xe/
 

OK, that’s definitely not a normal computer motherboard USB 😀

 

I have no idea how good this card would be compared with a high quality endpoint like the rendu’s.

Maybe there is some indications in the Novel thread. 
 

[Oggo]

4 hours ago, LewinskiH01 said:

 

Interesting. I also have two eRs and that same BG7BTL and had different results. What PSUs are you using for the eRs and BG7BTL? Which digital cable do you use? No mini-circuits filter, right?

Zerozone r-core LPS on BG7BTL (with Blue Jean cables), 2 separate Farad Super3s on the two ERs with Gotham JSSG360 DC-cables from Ghent Audio. No filters, as my BG7BTL is 75 ohm square wave only. 

[LewinskiH01]

4 hours ago, Oggo said:

Zerozone r-core LPS on BG7BTL (with Blue Jean cables), 2 separate Farad Super3s on the two ERs with Gotham JSSG360 DC-cables from Ghent Audio. No filters, as my BG7BTL is 75 ohm square wave only. 

Thank you.

Must be the LPS on the BG7BTL making a difference. My 2nd eR has LPS-1.2 and the same Ghent Gotham DC cable as you, my digital cable is a Ghent 75 ohm BNC, and my BG7BTL is also 75 ohm and only square waves.

[Oggo]

14 hours ago, Oggo said:

... 2 separate Farad Super3s on the two ERs with Gotham JSSG360 DC-cables from Ghent Audio. 

Oops, I got that mixed up. DC-cables between Super3s and ERs are Farad Level 2 Silver Cables. The Ghent DC-cables feed my Melco-gear.

[Encore]

 

 

My turn to report my findings with an external clock.

Short version (full version below photos): I bought a tube-based clock from Abbas Audio, and it’s fantastic. Sine wave, 50 Ohms. Price 490 USD + VAT & shipping. Though different in character, the clock brought an improvement of similar magnitude to what the eR brought, which was already one of the best hifi investments I had ever done. Soundstage has improved, dynamics has increased, bass is a lot more authoritative, and once again, sound became less digital/more organic.

 

 

 

 

Full version:

I bought my eR from Metawave, a Sweden-based dealer for Uptone, and they suggested that I might eventually want to try an external clock.

While praising the virtues of the eR to a friend who owns two DACs from Ukraine-based Abbas Audio, he suggested that I asked Abbas if he could build me a clock. Abbas uses tube-based clocks in his upper-tier DACs, and those DACs are fantastic. It turned out that Abbas does have a stand-alone clock in his products list. Price 490 USD + VAT and shipping.

It took a couple of months for it to be built, and another three weeks for the Danish postal service to deliver it once it had arrived in Denmark (not their finest hour). It has a sine-wave output and uses an EZ11 rectifier for its built-in PSU and an EF12 pentode. While I was waiting, I ordered a mini-filter as per John Swenson’s advice (huge thanks, John).

 

Sound: Jaw-dropping. My eR already brought a huge improvement to my system. The clock brought an improvement of similar magnitude.

The character of the change is different, though. While the eR made the sound much more analog-like and better resolved, in my system it didn’t do that much to sound stage or bass. The clock did.

Often it takes me a day or two to spot a difference (and if there is one) when I have made a change to my system. The effect of the clock was evident after less than an hour (however, see Quirks section below). It was not subtle. Soundstage is bigger and more transparent, dynamics has increased dramatically, and bass is a lot more authoritative. And once again, sound became less digital/more organic, especially noticeable on wiry-sounding recordings. The sound actually became a lot warmer, so much that I might even experiment with tube-rolling in my DAC.

So in my experience, the eR and the clock complement each other.

 

Stability: A few times, I have had to reboot the eR, always within the first 30 minutes of turning the clock and the eR on. Abbas says that I can leave the clock on 24/7, so from now on I’ll probably do that. The tubes are old WWII Telefunken tubes, and as the clock seems to run very cool—it doesn’t even get warm to the touch--they should probably last many, many hours.

 

Quirks: Documentation isn’t a strong point. As written in a previous post, the clock has two outputs, and Abbas writes about them: “There are two equal outputs with the sine wave about 900mv rms (no load) and 500-600mv with loading resistor 100ohm in parallel.” Abbas answers emails within a day or two but I haven’t been able to find out which output is which.

I used output 1 for four days, and while it did have an effect on sound, it wasn’t all in all for the better. More resolution but too forward. Not something I could live with.

I then switched to output 2, and that’s when the full benefit of the clock manifested itself.

I once again asked Abbas about the outputs, and this time he answered:

“Both outputs are the same. But they differ in phase.

There is little difference in sound, you can choose.

The output level depends on the load and gradually decreases from 900mv to 500mV at a load of 50 ohms

It doesn't really matter because the receiver always has hysteresis and turns the sine into a square wave in wide range of input level.

why two unput. You can drive two digital devices simultaneously.”

I don’t know what to make of this. There is NOT only a little difference in sound. I’m not able to determine the level of the output I’m using, but given my experience, I will probably not attempt to use both outputs.

 

Closing remarks: I have read the entire thread and some have opined that Uptone should have included a better clock in the eR, given the level of improvement possible from an external clock. By necessity, this would have made the eR more expensive, and that would probably have been prohibitive for me. Especially with a network component like a switch that ”shouldn’t” have an influence on sound, I was already hesitant to spend the money for the eR.

The eR was already on the best hifi investments I have ever done--I was really, really pleased with it before inserting the clock, and I have been urging all my hifi buddies to get one.

In fact, I can’t even bear the thought of having to live without one in my system, so I’ve placed an order for one more at Metawave. This will give me both the benefit of another eR and having a backup if one of them should go bad.