Building a DIY Music Server

[NEMO777]

Want to ask the respected DIY community. I want to build a copy as close as possible to Taiko Audio SGM Extreme. Having studied all the available sources and reviews, I understand what components it consists of. Everything is in free sale and has already been ordered by me. It is not possible to buy a similar unregulated power supply to Taiko. I want to assemble it using details as close as possible to the original. I tried to simulate the circuit. Before you start assembling it and purchasing expensive components, I ask you to tell me, maybe I did not take into account something or mistakenly indicated it in the diagram. Any comment is appreciated.

[Nenon]

4 hours ago, NEMO777 said:

Can you explain why LL 2773 will kill ATX?

Not exactly what I said. You missed the 66,000 uF part. You need more capacitance. But if you add more capacitance you put more load on the rectifier... and so on... Plenty of things that need careful considerations. 

 

1 hour ago, NEMO777 said:

Want to ask the respected DIY community. I want to build a copy as close as possible to Taiko Audio SGM Extreme. Having studied all the available sources and reviews, I understand what components it consists of. Everything is in free sale and has already been ordered by me. It is not possible to buy a similar unregulated power supply to Taiko. I want to assemble it using details as close as possible to the original. I tried to simulate the circuit. Before you start assembling it and purchasing expensive components, I ask you to tell me, maybe I did not take into account something or mistakenly indicated it in the diagram. Any comment is appreciated.

I've been studying the Extreme for the last 2 years. There is more than it meets the eye.

You cannot get the custom memory that Taiko uses. Taiko has compared it to our favorite industrial Apacer RAM (and did not like the Apacer). You cannot get the Taiko USB card, or the USB driver, or TAS, or the customized Windows. It would be even hard to copy the BIOS settings. 

But when it comes to the Extreme power supply, there is definitely more to it than meets the eye. I wish I could tell you exactly what the Extreme uses. But I don't really know. I don't think the Extreme uses the Taiko ATX DC to DC that we buy for DIY. My understanding is there is something else there that actually works better in the Extreme. 

When I visited Taiko, I pointed out this capacitor in panzerholz wood:

I asked Emile: "Does this really make a difference?". Emile ensured me that it does. He added that if it was not in panzerholz, he would never use this particular capacitor. I saw more panzerholz inside the Extremes they were building than I have seen in the completed units. It's hidden underneath and it's hard to see it in a completed unit. 

 

Seems like whatever you attempt to do will be quite different than what's inside the Extreme. You won't get the exact custom transformer, guessing you won't get their exact rectifier, you can't get the custom Lundahl choke, you can't get the regulated part of the power supply design, guessing you can't do the panzerholz capacitor, etc. Since it will be quite different, it may be a hit or miss clone. And if you don't have a reference to compare to, you will have no idea what you have done. 

 

Perhaps a better start will be to build the unregulated LPS I have shared here and use that as a reference. As you copy other parts of the Extreme design, compare to the reference. And please share back what worked and what did not work. Good luck and please send some photos and feedback. 

[austinpop]

@guiltyboxswapper You don’t sound guilty at all. In fact, you appear to be having a blast. Literally! 🙂

 

Really enjoyed reading about your experiments. Great Scott!

[Tatomek7]

20 hours ago, Nenon said:

There are better chokes than the Hammond, but the Hammond sounds very neutral to me... which means it will work universally in most systems.

I fully agree with it, Hammond is a safe choice. It was applied in many ULPS already and checked in many systems. It's good all rounder and it will stick properly to most of the systems, when other chokes can cause some not necessarily needed effects. This is why, I've sticked to exactly same amperage and inductance ratings as Hammond.

 

I would be more careful with such baby, which arrived today :)

 

I will think three times before I will push the button, but no risk, no fun....

 

Maybe I will start with HdPlex 800W before I will connect Taiko ATX board.

 

 

[MarcelNL]

I agree with Nenon, not only will you not be able to find out all the specs of the Exptreme design, you also will not be able to get many parts they use.

 

Best is to make your own route, as there are some things in the Extreme I'm not too convinced off, one for example is using a standard capacitor in a wooden ring, take the whole casing off the cap and it sounds much better ( a friend of me experimented with this a lot).

But the point is, copying a design from sight is impossible, following the basic principles after trying to understand them and coming up with your own design is easier, better and you'll learn a lot along the way.

 

[Tatomek7]

21 hours ago, MarcelNL said:

I'm intrigued by the Saligny rectifier, easy enough to compare

let us know on your findings. I use it, but didn't make any comparison, so I have no opinion on SQ impact.

[MarcelNL]

not sure when I get around to playing around with that part, I have so many moving parts I'm test flying, hoping to finalize the design by end of this month so I can bring the system to an audio gathering for some comparison and broader feedback.

[RickyV]

1 hour ago, Tatomek7 said:

I fully agree with it, Hammond is a safe choice. It was applied in many ULPS already and checked in many systems. It's good all rounder and it will stick properly to most of the systems, when other chokes can cause some not necessarily needed effects. This is why, I've sticked to exactly same amperage and inductance ratings as Hammond.

 

I would be more careful with such baby, which arrived today :)

 

I will think three times before I will push the button, but no risk, no fun....

 

Maybe I will start with HdPlex 800W before I will connect Taiko ATX board.

 

 

Is the DC resistance also the same for all 3 chokes?

[MarcelNL]

4 minutes ago, RickyV said:

Is the DC resistance also the same for all 3 chokes?

almost certainly not ;-)

[Tatomek7]

4 minutes ago, RickyV said:

s the DC resistance also the same for all 3 chokes?

Starting from the left, 0,08Ohm, 0,1Ohm and Hammond 0,16 I remember well

[LTG2010]

3 hours ago, MarcelNL said:

 

 one for example is using a standard capacitor in a wooden ring, take the whole casing off the cap and it sounds much better ( a friend of me experimented with this a lot).

 

That particular capacitor on Extreme, looks right on the rectifier circuit, and its subect to a lot of ringing. The wood I assume is to dampen that. You can use something like blutak as a cheap and easy alternative, to test the difference damping will make in that location, it shouldn't be huge but I guess that's why its called the Extreme.

[MarcelNL]

6 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

That particular capacitor on Extreme, looks right on the rectifier circuit, and its subect to a lot of ringing. The wood I assume is to dampen that. You can use something like blutak as a cheap and easy alternative, to test the difference damping will make in that location, it shouldn't be huge but I guess that's why its called the Extreme.

Sure it is, it is not that part I doubt I just know that the solution is cosmetic when compared to going to the max.

[NEMO777]

4 hours ago, Nenon said:

Не совсем то, что я сказал. Вы пропустили часть в 66 000 мкФ. Вам нужно больше емкости. Но если вы добавите больше емкости, вы увеличите нагрузку на выпрямитель... и так далее... Множество вещей, требующих тщательного рассмотрения.

 

Я изучал Экстрим последние 2 года. Здесь больше, чем кажется на первый взгляд.

Вы не можете получить пользовательскую память, которую использует Taiko. Тайко сравнил его с нашей любимой промышленной оперативной памятью Apacer (и ей не понравился Apacer). Вы не можете получить USB-карту Taiko, или USB-драйвер, или TAS, или настроенную Windows. Было бы даже трудно скопировать настройки BIOS.

Но когда дело доходит до Экстремального источника питания, в нем определенно есть нечто большее, чем кажется на первый взгляд. Жаль, что я не могу сказать вам точно, что используют Экстремалы. Но на самом деле я не знаю. Я не думаю, что Экстрим использует постоянный ток Taiko ATX от постоянного тока до постоянного тока, который мы покупаем для DIY. Насколько я понимаю, там есть что-то еще, что на самом деле работает лучше в крайнем случае.

Когда я посетил Тайко, я указал на этот конденсатор в панцерхольцском лесу:

Я спросил Эмиля: "Это действительно имеет значение?". Эмиль заверил меня, что это так. Он добавил, что если бы это не было в панцерхольце, он бы никогда не использовал этот конкретный конденсатор. Я видел больше панцерхольцев внутри Крайностей, которые они строили, чем я видел в завершенных подразделениях. Он скрыт под ним, и его трудно увидеть в готовом устройстве.

 

Похоже, что бы вы ни попытались сделать, это будет совсем не то, что находится внутри Экстрима. Вы не получите точный пользовательский трансформатор, предполагая, что вы не получите их точный выпрямитель, вы не можете получить пользовательский дроссель Лундаля, вы не можете получить регулируемую часть конструкции источника питания, предполагая, что вы не можете использовать конденсатор panzerholz и т. Д. Поскольку это будет совсем другое, это может быть клон хита или промаха. И если у вас нет ссылки для сравнения, вы понятия не будете иметь, что вы сделали.

 

Возможно, лучшим началом будет создание нерегулируемых пластинок, которыми я поделился здесь, и использование их в качестве эталона. Когда вы копируете другие части экстремального дизайна, сравните их с эталонными. И, пожалуйста, поделитесь тем, что сработало, а что не сработало. Удачи и, пожалуйста, присылайте несколько фотографий и отзывов.

Thanks for your sane comment Neon. I am a realist and I perfectly understand that I cannot completely repeat all the technologies of Taiko Extreme. I have been analyzing all available sources of information on this server for a long time. So far, my plans include repeating as much as possible the already finished server assembly. Of all the periphery, I cannot install only the ATP RAM, I cannot purchase it. But in the process of setting up, I will try RAM from different manufacturers, I have such an opportunity. Now I am working hard on the selection of capacitors for the power supply. Taiko showed what their power supplies look like, the photos are on their website in the gallery - https://taikoaudio.com/taiko-2020/taiko-gallery/. The only question is in the ratings of the capacitors. With capacitors according to my scheme C1, C3-C9, C11-C16, there are no questions, this is 47000uF 25V Mundorf MLytic AG Electrolytic Capacitor - https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/mlgoag180-47000uf-25vdc-mlytic-electrolytic-caps -p-8251.html.
The capacitor C2 is questionable. The mundorf in this design has a kindergarten with a red inscription only - Mundorf MCap Supreme EVO Oil Capacitors. Since it shunts the capacitor by 47000 uF, then in terms of syenergy in a ratio of 1: 10000 there should be a 4.7uF capacitor. I think Taiko used a capacitor - 4.7uF 800Vdc Mundorf Mcap Supreme EVO Oil Capacitor - https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/seo-070-4-7uf-mundorf-mcap-supreme-evo-oil.html ... The big question is I have shunt capacitors C10 and C17. I could not see their denominations. But apparently this is 0.47uF 630Vdc Duelund CAST DC Silver Capacitor - https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/castdcag014-047uf-630v-duelund-cast-silver-stock-p-9473.html.
Can someone from our community be able to confirm the information on capacitors?

[RickyV]

10 minutes ago, NEMO777 said:

Thanks for your sane comment Neon. I am a realist and I perfectly understand that I cannot completely repeat all the technologies of Taiko Extreme. I have been analyzing all available sources of information on this server for a long time. So far, my plans include repeating as much as possible the already finished server assembly. Of all the periphery, I cannot install only the ATP RAM, I cannot purchase it. But in the process of setting up, I will try RAM from different manufacturers, I have such an opportunity. Now I am working hard on the selection of capacitors for the power supply. Taiko showed what their power supplies look like, the photos are on their website in the gallery - https://taikoaudio.com/taiko-2020/taiko-gallery/. The only question is in the ratings of the capacitors. With capacitors according to my scheme C1, C3-C9, C11-C16, there are no questions, this is 47000uF 25V Mundorf MLytic AG Electrolytic Capacitor - https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/mlgoag180-47000uf-25vdc-mlytic-electrolytic-caps -p-8251.html.
The capacitor C2 is questionable. The mundorf in this design has a kindergarten with a red inscription only - Mundorf MCap Supreme EVO Oil Capacitors. Since it shunts the capacitor by 47000 uF, then in terms of syenergy in a ratio of 1: 10000 there should be a 4.7uF capacitor. I think Taiko used a capacitor - 4.7uF 800Vdc Mundorf Mcap Supreme EVO Oil Capacitor - https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/seo-070-4-7uf-mundorf-mcap-supreme-evo-oil.html ... The big question is I have shunt capacitors C10 and C17. I could not see their denominations. But apparently this is 0.47uF 630Vdc Duelund CAST DC Silver Capacitor - https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/castdcag014-047uf-630v-duelund-cast-silver-stock-p-9473.html.
Can someone from our community be able to confirm the information on capacitors?

sorry can’t help you with the capacitors but I was wondering about the double choke coil in your schematic. Why did you learn that from?

[NEMO777]

4 hours ago, Nenon said:

Not exactly what I said. You missed the 66,000 uF part. You need more capacitance. But if you add more capacitance you put more load on the rectifier... and so on... Plenty of things that need careful considerations. 

 

I've been studying the Extreme for the last 2 years. There is more than it meets the eye.

You cannot get the custom memory that Taiko uses. Taiko has compared it to our favorite industrial Apacer RAM (and did not like the Apacer). You cannot get the Taiko USB card, or the USB driver, or TAS, or the customized Windows. It would be even hard to copy the BIOS settings. 

But when it comes to the Extreme power supply, there is definitely more to it than meets the eye. I wish I could tell you exactly what the Extreme uses. But I don't really know. I don't think the Extreme uses the Taiko ATX DC to DC that we buy for DIY. My understanding is there is something else there that actually works better in the Extreme. 

When I visited Taiko, I pointed out this capacitor in panzerholz wood:

I asked Emile: "Does this really make a difference?". Emile ensured me that it does. He added that if it was not in panzerholz, he would never use this particular capacitor. I saw more panzerholz inside the Extremes they were building than I have seen in the completed units. It's hidden underneath and it's hard to see it in a completed unit. 

 

Seems like whatever you attempt to do will be quite different than what's inside the Extreme. You won't get the exact custom transformer, guessing you won't get their exact rectifier, you can't get the custom Lundahl choke, you can't get the regulated part of the power supply design, guessing you can't do the panzerholz capacitor, etc. Since it will be quite different, it may be a hit or miss clone. And if you don't have a reference to compare to, you will have no idea what you have done. 

 

Perhaps a better start will be to build the unregulated LPS I have shared here and use that as a reference. As you copy other parts of the Extreme design, compare to the reference. And please share back what worked and what did not work. Good luck and please send some photos and feedback. 

I also plan to use bakel plywood for damping capacitors, transformer and chokes like Taiko did. It is not difficult to buy such plywood in my region. Now I'm thinking about what kind of plywood to use, it can be birch or beech. Judging by the photo from neon, there is plywood from Beech. Although Emil himself said that he uses birch plywood.

[AudioDoctor]

6 minutes ago, NEMO777 said:

I also plan to use bakel plywood for damping capacitors, transformer and chokes like Taiko did. It is not difficult to buy such plywood in my region. Now I'm thinking about what kind of plywood to use, it can be birch or beech. Judging by the photo from neon, there is plywood from Beech. Although Emil himself said that he uses birch plywood.

 

Birch plywood is used in a lot of audio applications, usually under a veneer. It's sturdy and strong and lasts a long time.

[NEMO777]

12 minutes ago, RickyV said:

sorry can’t help you with the capacitors but I was wondering about the double choke coil in your schematic. Why did you learn that from?

I want to repeat Taiko's original circuit. Taiko himself uses 2 throttles in his power supply. You can see it on their website in the gallery. - https://taikoaudio.com/taiko-2020/taiko-gallery/

[RickyV]

10 minutes ago, NEMO777 said:

I want to repeat Taiko's original circuit. Taiko himself uses 2 throttles in his power supply. You can see it on their website in the gallery. - https://taikoaudio.com/taiko-2020/taiko-gallery/

I was going to say “ but I do not see any wires going underneath the capacitor bank” 

But 

 

But with a transformer symbol on the pcb, confusing.

 

[NEMO777]

9 minutes ago, RickyV said:

I was going to say “ but I do not see any wires going underneath the capacitor bank” 

But 

 

But with a transformer symbol on the pcb, confusing.

 

I am sure that these are taps to the second coil of the inductor. The photo shows that the ATX output has only one MI Fit for 6 contacts.

[Tatang]

14 hours ago, RickyV said:

I was going to say “ but I do not see any wires going underneath the capacitor bank” 

But 

 

But with a transformer symbol on the pcb, confusing.

 

Thats a symbol of common mode choke, so taiko use 1 inductor choke n 1 common mode choke to isolate the noise before entering the dc-atx, thats make sense to reduce the noise entering the dc atx converter

 

 

[Tatang]

If the secondary output of the toroid transformer is more than 30v, it doesnt make sense to use the array of mundorf ag 47000uf 25v, it will reduce the age of that capacitor array, the secondary output of the toroid should be less than 25v (less than 20v is better). Thats what i think of based in the capacitor spec. I just give opinion…

[RickyV]

31 minutes ago, Tatang said:

Thats a symbol of common mode choke

Yes okey but a common mode choke 4 connections. 

[MarcelNL]

What if that cap array is just for 12V, let's say 16-17 V working voltage? the Extreme does not use the Taiko ATX.

 

Anyway, find your own path, it's easier than you think as you are bound to make some crucial misstakes/deviations from the original when reverse engineering something.

[RickyV]

39 minutes ago, RickyV said:

Yes okey but a common mode choke 4 connections. 

So I looked a little closer and I now think I see 4 connecting wires.

 

 

red for coil 1. Yellow for coil 2, see only one wire.

 

 

So @NEMO777, not sure if this is helpful or makes things more confusing.

 

In my opinion it is pretty necessary to know the values of al these coil if you want to duplicate this power supply.

[ASRMichael]

30 minutes ago, MarcelNL said:

 the Extreme does not use the Taiko ATX.

 

Do you know that for sure? Have you had a peak under the capacitors?