Article: Editorial: What's Wrong With You?

[The Computer Audiophile]

12 minutes ago, JoshM said:

Chris, I love this editorial because it gets at the often implicit mixing of "objective" analysis with political/moral opinions and economic value judgments. 

 

It's perfectly reasonable for people to directly compare two pieces of gear, regardless of their relative prices. But one always needs to keep in mind that people value gear differently and have different budgets. We need to take potential interlocutors' monetary means and values into account when rendering opinions. It's weird and unhelpful to proclaim that your $1.5k pair of headphones smokes someone's $100 pair of headphones unless they're claiming otherwise. Without taking budgets/priorities into account, audio comparisons descend into pointless subjective value judgments. 

 

Likewise, it's easy to import political opinion into discussions of any hobby without realizing it. I completely understand the argument that an expensive pair of headphones or DAC is an extravagance when there are people in the world struggling to eat and make ends meet. (I agree with Rage Against the Machine's politics!) But except for people who live super frugally and donate every extra penny to charity, we're all guilty of indulging wasteful spending. Personally, I think charity is wonderful, but it's no substitute for policy. If someone thinks that we should redistribute money from the rich to the poor, great. I agree and think the government should do more of it! But insofar as people have extra money, they should be free to spend it however they want, including on audiophile jewelry that even other audiophiles might find wasteful. In other words, keep the political/moral judgements where they belong. Don't mix them with audio discussions.

 

Finally, as the recent Audio Fidelity remasters show, Rage albums can certainly stand up to audiophile scrutiny! 😉

You should be a writer 😁

 

P.S. I have that Rage version and love every minute of it. One of my ten best albums of all time. 

[fas42]

48 minutes ago, Axial said:

You tube is getting pretty good; 4K picture and decent sound rendition. Yeah I know, it's not analog from a record (vinyl) playing. Still, you can make music sound very good.

what's wrong, and right with us?)

 

 

 

Bob, one can download the Opus version, which gives you full 20k bandwidth. Convert to WAV, and I doubt I would any problem 'fooling' people with the result, over a good rig.

[fas42]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

If it makes you happy, that’s cool with me. If you think you can judge a system via YouTube, that may be handy and save you traveling to a dealer or audio show. You can demo online. If it works for you, I guess we shouldn’t care. 

 

The YouTube shows me the potential, of what some gear configuration can deliver. My attitude is that newly acquired gear, however fancy, or well worn, is barely in the starting blocks for getting the best out of it - I will connect it together, immediately hear shortcomings, and work out a plan of attack for overcoming them.

[audiobomber]

3 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

And I alway ask the question - what is this thing about bass? When I go to the concert hall, I don't hear "audiophile bass"; when I'm sitting in a room with a rock band rehearsing, I don't hear "audiophile bass" ...

 

One of my tests for this is classic Boney M. tracks - there is a visceral, gut wrenching thud from the beat which is part of the magic - and listening to this on a rig with mighty woofers, this can be missing ... Fail!!!

I have no idea what you mean by "audiophile bass", but no bass is a major shortcoming in an expensive system. For me.

 

You can feel bass drum whacks and thumping electric bass in a rock or jazz band. My headphones (Beyerdynamic DT 1990 Pro), can play infrasonic bass frequencies. My speakers only go do down to 30 Hz, but the tactile bass impact from my speaker system (dual 6.5" midwoofers in sealed cabinets, dual sealed 10" subs), puts any headphone to shame.

 

The system you linked is all about soundstage, and pristine mids & highs. Bass is AWOL. That takes excitement away from the music. For me.

[KDinsmore]

Art Dudley's Article hit this on the head.

[STC]

14 hours ago, fas42 said:

So, we're in the world where everything that contradicts our viewpoint must have been fiddled with, eh ...

 

Frank, I am doing video recording all the time to compare. I know what to expect from the Youtube videos. I have uploaded many of my own to Youtube. I also record other good systems for reference. 

 

On thing you learn from this is you cannot judge the absolute (sic) SQ from YT. Sometimes, the videos sound will give the opposite results. 

[Paul R]

41 minutes ago, STC said:

 

Frank, I am doing video recording all the time to compare. I know what to expect from the Youtube videos. I have uploaded many of my own to Youtube. I also record other good systems for reference. 

 

On thing you learn from this is you cannot judge the absolute (sic) SQ from YT. Sometimes, the videos sound will give the opposite results. 

 

Nice summary. Can you post a link to a few of your own videos please? 

 

-Paul 

 

[Axial]

53 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Bob, one can download the Opus version, which gives you full 20k bandwidth. Convert to WAV, and I doubt I would any problem 'fooling' people with the result, over a good rig.

 

Alright Frank, educate me please. ...Links & all.

 

I've got this for now:

• https://elfsight.com/blog/2017/06/requirements-uploading-video-youtube/

 

• https://superuser.com/questions/1049075/youtube-dl-download-opus-audio-or-aac-audio

 

From what I see and hear on YouTube (Music videos), they can be very high definition picture (HDR 4K, 6K, 8K) and very decent audio quality (lossy). 

The better the miking for home made music videos the better the playback quality and an idea of the room acoustics, short of being in that room, same for live music versus reproduced @ home from an ultra high end stereo sound system (regardless of price; what counts is the synergy between all components and the absence of noise from a pitch black background). 

 

...A quality pair of headphones monitoring. Some are excellent sounding, others are not. 

There is no absolute but I do understand the pros and cons; it can give us a decent idea, not the full idea, if you know what I'm saying. 

 

Anyway, that's the best we have short of time travel. Can we rely? It is highly depending. 

And not only from the sound quality but also from our interprétation (NeuroAnalyxis, PsychoAnalysis, Computational Brain Science, pshycoacoustic, influence of the transport system in a dedicated space quantum, ...all that jazz).

 

And of course in time when the ears have various differential dispositions.

Plus my ears and your ears and their ears are not equal. 

 

All is valid that is preferred and loved. There is no magic in sound reproduction, it's in the recording moment. 

 

I think, your mileage might vary, in my opinion, with a touch of humor and serious balance, nothing is written in stone tablets, I like Opera and all that classic jazz in small church avenues where joy is number one entrée du jour, I don't mind @ all a strip club for both women and men, with pool tables and a swimming pool underneath the main soundstage, or driving the Autobhan aboard a Bugatti (burgundy color with sprinkles of lights on the lower edges). 

 

Alert: There's a decent dose of humor in my post; all in order to pacify any deviating minds from the road ahead (Autobahn, without speed restriction). 

 

But YouTube is not bad @ all, better and better with people getting the pro hang of it. 

It's very hard to make an accurate assessment when evaluating a music recording from a YouTube video...it is only as good as the microphone positioning quality. But it can be done, and the better the setup the better the end results.

[The Computer Audiophile]

47 minutes ago, KDinsmore said:

Art Dudley's Article hit this on the head.

Thanks for the link. 

 

That editorial is a bit schizophrenic. The first half talks bad about people enjoying their hobbies however they choose. The second half says who cares  if people enjoy their hobbies however they choose. 

 

Strange indeed. 

[Axial]

53 minutes ago, KDinsmore said:

Art Dudley's Article hit this on the head.

 

Thx, that was a fun read, with a dose of humor. 

[STC]

23 minutes ago, Paul R said:

 

Nice summary. Can you post a link to a few of your own videos please? 

 

-Paul 

 

 

They are in my other threads and some in my signature. Pls see PM for the direct link of my old comparisons. 

[fas42]

3 hours ago, audiobomber said:

 

You can feel bass drum whacks and thumping electric bass in a rock or jazz band. My headphones (Beyerdynamic DT 1990 Pro), can play infrasonic bass frequencies. My speakers only go do down to 30 Hz, but the tactile bass impact from my speaker system (dual 6.5" midwoofers in sealed cabinets, dual sealed 10" subs), puts any headphone to shame.

 

You may find this remarkable, but my current NAD rig, well short of optimum, has no trouble pumping out a powerful sense of bass action - easily able to shock one with the impact of bass drum whacks - via 'miserable' Sharp boombox speakers.  It happens, because the balance between top and bottom response is balanced, and the shape of the waveform is well projected; there is a sense of grunt to the sound, when that's what's in the music ... zero wimpiness.

 

"Audiophile bass" is soggy, overbearing rumbling which has nothing to do with the music; that, which never exists with live sound making ... the worst offender I have heard was a Steinway Lyngdorf,

 

 

... staggeringly bad ...

[Tin]

Please beware when discussing bass. It is a very difficult subject to discuss, as people often use it to describe different things.

 

First, there are different definitions, which can, but do not have to exist next to eachother:

- loud bass

- punchy bass

- deep bass

There are probably more definitions I don't know about.

 

This thread is the first time I came across 'audiophile bass' (*), so I'm not able to figure out where it fits in. There is also soggy bass, which quite often is caused by room modes.

 

Another difficulty, in my opinion, with bass is that room dimensions make it very difficult to find a common ground when discussing it.

 

My room, which is quite large, makes it very easy to accomodate long wavelengths, helping my setup in delivering very deep bass. At the same time, the dimensions make it difficult to pressurize the room enough to deliver punchy bass. I would need speakers with arrays of woofers to achieve that. Obviously those speakers would be much larger to accomodate those arrays, and that wouldn't work for me.

 

Room modes can make speakers that work great in one room, make them sound overpowered and soggy in another. My room has a very strong mode (over 20dB!) at around 50Hz, and it made some songs absolutely unlistenable. Another room mode gently lifts the lower end of my setup, which is very helpful for some specific recordings, like the organ in symphony no.3 by St Saens.

Luckily my setup has some nice DSP algorithms, so the 50Hz mode can be surpressed.

 

Anyway, please be careful when discussing bass; you could agree and never find out.

 

*) I'm not a native speaker, so it could be just me, but it does sounds polarising, and that never helps.

[accwai]

12 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

If I were to buy a newer sports car, I'd get a Boxster/Cay-thing or a Miata with a jaguar V-6 sound system (lighter & more hp than stock).

 

I don't have any strong urge to get a new car any time soon. But the RX-9 is on my watch list of upcoming cars. Heck, it's the only thing on my watch list now. Speaking of sound system, Bimmers are highly frowned upon in my circle but I can make an exception for The Pig:

 

 

Since exhaust comes mostly through the audio system, there is finally reason for having car stereo...

 

Quote

But, I would not try to evaluate them thru youtube...

 

Actually Visual and G-Forces are the only primary car control cues in the Perfect Control book. Everything else like tire noise and steering forces are way down on the cues hierarchy. Steering wheel force feedback on or off makes very little difference to the best sim racers, for example. And of Visual and G-Force, they contain the same information but only the former can standalone: excellent sim racers can turn almost perfect laps with visuals alone. So in theory YouTube would be able to provide you with all the info you need, if you know where to look.

[Ajax]

Hi Chris,

 

Envy is pretty much a human condition, so is the need to be noticed, liked, respected etc.

 

Anyone of these “needs” will trigger a judgemental response, which is what you are referring to. Putting down others is pretty much a sign of insecurity and I’ve been on the receiving end and much to my shame have also dished it out.

 

Maybe your speaker salesman couldn’t afford a pair of decent speakers, or simply didn’t feel good about himself, and saw a young kid as easy fodder for an ego boost.

 

As my wife often says to me “you know he/she is a twit so why take it on board”.

 

Your article obviously refers to audiophiles but believe me those that “need” to put down/ judge others are prevalent throughout western society.  

 

When I was in my mid thirties I went broke and through good luck and hard work I reserected my situation by creating a small business which I successfully sold. A number of people close to me, who should be happy for me, are actually very judgemental about how I now spend my time. No thanks when I help them and no well done etc. My success has made them feel inadequate and jealous. Pisses me off but that’s the reality, some people can’t abide others having success if they aren’t.

 

So the “music lover” puts down the gear lover as it gives him a (false) pedestal to sit on and look down., and visa versus. 

 

My own audio goals are finding new music that I enjoy, and playing it on the best system I can find for the least possible bucks.

 

In Australia we call people who put down others arseholes, we are very technical with our descriptions.

 

[Paul R]

6 hours ago, Tin said:

Please beware when discussing bass. It is a very difficult subject to discuss, as people often use it to describe different things.

 

First, there are different definitions, which can, but do not have to exist next to eachother:

- loud bass

- punchy bass

- deep bass

There are probably more definitions I don't know about.

 

This thread is the first time I came across 'audiophile bass' (*), so I'm not able to figure out where it fits in. There is also soggy bass, which quite often is caused by room modes.

 

Another difficulty, in my opinion, with bass is that room dimensions make it very difficult to find a common ground when discussing it.

 

My room, which is quite large, makes it very easy to accomodate long wavelengths, helping my setup in delivering very deep bass. At the same time, the dimensions make it difficult to pressurize the room enough to deliver punchy bass. I would need speakers with arrays of woofers to achieve that. Obviously those speakers would be much larger to accomodate those arrays, and that wouldn't work for me.

 

Room modes can make speakers that work great in one room, make them sound overpowered and soggy in another. My room has a very strong mode (over 20dB!) at around 50Hz, and it made some songs absolutely unlistenable. Another room mode gently lifts the lower end of my setup, which is very helpful for some specific recordings, like the organ in symphony no.3 by St Saens.

Luckily my setup has some nice DSP algorithms, so the 50Hz mode can be surpressed.

 

Anyway, please be careful when discussing bass; you could agree and never find out.

 

*) I'm not a native speaker, so it could be just me, but it does sounds polarising, and that never helps.

 

Bass amplified by a room node is almost unbearable to us, and absolutely an annoyance. Where we have that, which it seems, is almost everywhere, we tend to use small speakers and close in  (near field) listening. 

 

Then again, I am one whose “joy” is triggered by precise imaging, depth, and clear horns, strings, and vocals. No ear ripping please.

 

I have found that as I age, with slight tinnitus and hearing loss, that is far more important to me than “punchy” bass, though I do enjoy the occasional great bass demo at shows or at friends homes. Just not in my home! 

 

By by the way, has anyone noticed that digital has improved so much in the past decade, that even low end hardware stuff sounds very good? Not sure exactly where the point of diminishing returns is theses days, but that point is surely lower than it was before! 

 

[Tin]

44 minutes ago, Paul R said:

Then again, I am one whose “joy” is triggered by precise imaging, depth, and clear horns, strings, and vocals. No ear ripping please.

 

I have found that as I age, with slight tinnitus and hearing loss, that is far more important to me than “punchy” bass, though I do enjoy the occasional great bass demo at shows or at friends homes. Just not in my home! 

 

By by the way, has anyone noticed that digital has improved so much in the past decade, that even low end hardware stuff sounds very good? Not sure exactly where the point of diminishing returns is theses days, but that point is surely lower than it was before! 

 

Instead of going for ear ripping bass, you could try to add a small sub to your setup, supporting the lower end of your speakers at a very moderate level. This will (can?) greatly enhance the soundstage.

Last year I was invited to listen a setup with some very expensive components and tiny Klångedang speakers. I had brought an old Rel Stampede with me, and I didn't have to take it back home. 😁

 

I agree that modern DACs these days are very, very good, even at moderate pricelevels.

I'm not so sure about the point of diminishing returns though, I think that is very personal. Or maybe I just want my DAC to be better than a € 75 one.. I dunno... 😇

 

[Paul R]

I think we all do. I do have a small sub attached to the Maggie MMGs, but it is tuned so low you don’t know it is there, just like a sub should be tuned. Does it’s job just perfectly, but does not really enhance the soundstage that much. 

 

Point of diminishing returns is hard to tell, and it is all individual of course. Recently upgraded turntable for instance. Wanted Rega Planar 8, could easily live with Planar 3, stretched for Planar 6.  Probably not that much better than a Planar 3, but I liked the tougher components, and you would not believe how light the plinth is. Still replaced the LP120 with another LP120UX though. There are just some albums I am not gonna play on a $800 cart attached to a $1900 table! I will play em on the cheap table and work on them in the digital realm. 

 

But that there is a point of diminishing returns, for pretty much everyone, is pretty non controversial. It is also pretty certain that point has moved downward price wise over the past decade or so. 

 

[firedog]

1 hour ago, Paul R said:

By by the way, has anyone noticed that digital has improved so much in the past decade, that even low end hardware stuff sounds very good? Not sure exactly where the point of diminishing returns is theses days, but that point is surely lower than it was before! 

Yep. That's why some of the audiophile snobbery annoys me. My little $130 ifi  DAC device sounds really good. Makes very enjoyable, accurate sound. Not as good as mid to high end stuff - but not that far off. I could definitely "live with it" with no problem.  Please don't tell me that If I'm listening with that DAC I can't really judge the sound of what I'm listening to. 

The simple truth is that for $1 - $2k these days you can buy a few inexpensive components and get very close to state of the art sound - you mainly miss out on bass below about 40hz  and the ability to sound good at high volume and to fill a mid to large room with  "impact". If you aren't particularly looking for those two features, the diminishing returns curve is VERY steep above that price level. 

I'm not putting down expensive systems and if I could afford a state of the art 6 figure system I'd probably buy one. But many  audiophiles are the kind of people who have the means to spend thousands on very small improvements in their systems. They then describe these incremental improvements as having "lifted the veil", or a giving them a  "totally different sound'" - that's usually BS to describe a small improvement. If it's not, their previous setup must not have been very good. 

[Tin]

4 minutes ago, firedog said:

I'm not putting down expensive systems and if I could afford a state of the art 6 figure system I'd probably buy one. But many  audiophiles are the kind of people who have the means to spend thousands on very small improvements in their systems. They then describe these incremental improvements as having "lifted the veil", or a giving them a  "totally different sound'" - that's usually BS to describe a small improvement. If it's not, their previous setup must not have been very good. 

I have to disagree with you, although I agree with you as well.

 

Consider a F1 car, driving on less than ideal tires. Changing the tires will make a huge difference to the driver.

People in lesser cars, even if those are very fast cars in their own right, will not be able to appreciate the difference the upgrade made to the F1 driver.

It's a probably bit like that.

 

[firedog]

20 minutes ago, Tin said:

I have to disagree with you, although I agree with you as well.

 

Consider a F1 car, driving on less than ideal tires. Changing the tires will make a huge difference to the driver.

People in lesser cars, even if those are very fast cars in their own right, will not be able to appreciate the difference the upgrade made to the F1 driver.

It's a probably bit like that.

 

Yes, but in both cases the driver thinks his car drives like a F1 - he wasn't driving around with truck tires in the first place was he? He doesn't say, boy this car is totally different now. He says - the new tires made it a little bit better. 

[Tin]

47 minutes ago, firedog said:

Yes, but in both cases the driver thinks his car drives like a F1 - he wasn't driving around with truck tires in the first place was he? He doesn't say, boy this car is totally different now. He says - the new tires made it a little bit better. 

I'm pretty sure I have heard Vettel saying things quite differently.

 

But, quoting Chris quoting Sheryl Crow: "If it makes you happy."

[Paul R]

1 hour ago, Tin said:

I have to disagree with you, although I agree with you as well.

 

Consider a F1 car, driving on less than ideal tires. Changing the tires will make a huge difference to the driver.

People in lesser cars, even if those are very fast cars in their own right, will not be able to appreciate the difference the upgrade made to the F1 driver.

It's a probably bit like that.

 

 

I'm not at all sure I agree with the F1 analogy. F1 cars require huge investments, usually supplied by sponsors, and are very much a commercial enterprise.  A home audio system is usually not a commercial enterprise, nor does it usually have sponsors. (Unless of course, you are part of the press, and sometimes, not even then.) 

 

It's more like buying a particular color rug for your home - you like it, it fits well with the way you live, this or that one may be tougher or last longer, it may be from a particular designer, and it may require professional installation to "get it right." 

 

-Paul 

 

[Ralf11]

Let's go with vintage racing -  a hobby.  Tires are still important.

[audiobomber]

5 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Let's go with vintage racing -  a hobby.  Tires are still important.

I say we get back to audio.