Ho ho ho! Belden and Blue Jeans Join the Dark Side

[Jud]

https://www.iconoclastcable.com/index.htm

 

https://www.iconoclastcable.com/story/index.htm

 

https://www.iconoclastcable.com/story/time.pdf

[Jud]

12 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

not a chance...

 

 

 

 

Well, the conductor material is "Oh no."

[Jud]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

From a year ago:

https://www.psaudio.com/article/cables-speaker-cable-design-part-1/

https://www.psaudio.com/article/cables-speaker-cable-design-part-2/

 

I suppose my questions are:

 

- Do the design goals make sense just from the standpoint of fundamental electrical principles?

 

- Is the design likely to achieve those goals?

 

- Beyond fundamental electrical principles, are the time-based and skin-effect-based effects of the design likely to be audible to people with training and experience, or are any effects most likely completely beyond human capabilities to discern?

 

- Can the same benefits (to the extent there are any, either plain old electrical or more esoteric) be found in less expensive cables?

[Jud]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

The effects he talks about are real. The problem with those articles is, as usual, that the leap from there to audible benefits is done with no justification whatsoever.

 

Of course the problem with attempting to justify the conclusion of audibility is that a full-fledged controlled experiment is expensive, and you'd have to find some reputable firm/organization/institution willing to take it on as a priority over other work they could be doing. Something less would meet with due skepticism.

[Jud]

11 minutes ago, mansr said:

He could at least show a measurement of the difference.

 

You're meaning some property/ies for which no graphs are shown in the various documents, right?  I think I saw graphs and tables (that I assumed were the results of measurements or were generally accepted) for the basic electrical properties of interest and I believe also for skin effect, though I don't remember if there was extended information about arrival time differences at various frequencies.

[Jud]

11 minutes ago, mansr said:

I only saw graphs and numbers pertaining to cable properties like inductance and capacitance, nothing showing the effect of the fancy cables compared to generic ones on an audio signal.

 

In the third link in the OP, see for example pp. 3, 9-10, and 20.

[Jud]

28 minutes ago, mansr said:

Nope. There are plenty of numbers, sure, and I don't doubt their accuracy. What's missing is even the slightest hint as to why these figures are relevant. Yes, his cables are better, sometimes by a lot, than the generic reference. However, if the deficiencies are not causing audible distortion, an improved cable will not sound better. It is, as is typical for this industry, a solution to a non-problem.

 

So in terms of the questions I raised before, these are real physical properties being discussed, and something like the low capacitance over frequency range might have an accepted audible effect.  But for the more esoteric claims/properties like skin effect and arrival time differences vs. frequency, there's currently no evidence these make an audible difference.

[Jud]

Quick question: Is the capacitance of the LC-1 comparably low to that of the Iconoclast over the relevant frequency range?

[Jud]

39 minutes ago, BobBJC said:

An absolute coincidence I assure you. LOL! I have no idea of Audioquest marketing! If you read through the over 1,000 posts on the PS Audio forum, you will see that same "quote" from my customers repeated more than a few times... No brag, just fact and not from a marketing brochure. We don't have a marketing brochure.. This is without question, a tough crowd. 

 

Bob,  another thing: Chris has mentioned many times that industry representatives on this site should answer questions, but are not to do product promotion unless on their own paid space here.  Please be careful of that line.  We as forum users appreciate not having to deal with marketing messages, even in the form of genuine user encomiums.

 

I'm not a moderator, but I did want to mention that.

[Jud]

2 hours ago, BobBJC said:

Thank you for the heads up. Did not know the rules. I understand completely. 

 

1 hour ago, stuck limo said:

 

I found no issue with the quoted statement you made, and certainly did not view it as "advertising"; rather, just relaying information. There are certain people you'll find on this forum who like to "armchair mod" very loudly. Some of your other statements kind of slide into "advertising" territory if we're being nitpicky (they're not egregious) [it's also very easy for people to unfairly point the finger at manufacturers who simply discuss their product as "advertising" for it], but on the flip-side, absolutely zero people are forcing forum members (me included) at gunpoint to purchase your products or to hear a difference between your merch and other products. I and I'm sure others appreciate you being here and conversing with us about the topic. @BobBJC

 

As I mentioned in my comment, I'm not a moderator.  @stuck limo may come at this from a slightly different point of view.  As a customer service person for LH Labs, he's received a lot of very strong comments from many people here: 

 

 

I would draw the line a little differently than he has, but it's up to the individual.  Chris has quite a light hand at moderation, so a lot of the ethic here is pretty self-guided.

[Jud]

Hi Galen -

 

I don’t think anyone is disputing the measurements, or that they are, directionally, improvements.  What I would like to understand is how much of an improvement in the sonic qualities you’re aiming at might be expected.

 

 I also understand this will vary from system to system.  So would you be able to pick components (as an example, for speaker cable, any amp and speaker combination you have used for testing), and provide the amount of difference you have measured in that setup between Iconoclast and other cables for the sonic qualities you’re wanting to maximize?

[Jud]

I personally subjectively feel I've heard differences between cables, including in very enjoyable listening sessions with my friend @lmitche.  Of course, I have to allow for the possibility that any differences are completely in my own mind.  So I'm open to either answer, and both are intellectually intriguing.  (That's a reason I don't "get" cable arguments to a certain extent. Why the emotional investment? The answer's gonna be what it's gonna be, and either way it's interesting.)

 

Iconoclast has provided a pretty thorough measurement suite pointing out differences between their cables and others.  This in itself is a good thing; additionally it opens up the opportunity to take the next step and try to evaluate, as I've asked @Galen, the measurable degree to which these differences might affect relevant sonic qualities when employed in a system.

[Jud]

7 minutes ago, lmitche said:

It seems to me that Galen already answered your question in the middle of post #69 above.

 

That's along the lines of what I want to get to, but I'd be really grateful for something quantitative. I think I recall some quantitative statements regarding timing in the longer white paper.  Pulling these out along with any other measured characteristics for an example system would be very helpful to me.

[Jud]

Speaking of velocity of light, it seems the argument with @mansr is generating more heat than light at this point - thanks to @Galen for not getting nasty in return.

 

I'm going to have to go back to the white paper at some point when I have time and find those numbers I was looking for regarding the measured effects of the particular qualities of this cable on sonic characteristics like timing/phase.

 

One other thing I'm curious about is that I've read about BAV cable a couple of times in this thread, but haven't located it online.  @BobBJC, is it available at Blue Jeans' site somewhere?

[Jud]

3 minutes ago, mansr said:

Where have I been nasty?

 

2 hours ago, mansr said:

You just lost any remaining credibility you might have had with me. I shall avoid buying any Belden cable if I can, and I will encourage others to do the same.

 

Here you have not only said you will not purchase the cables @Galen designs, but have said you will not, and have urged others not to, patronize any of the other presumably unobjectionable products made by his employer.  In other words, you are trying to persuade people to boycott Belden because Galen's responses aren't satisfactory in your view.

 

1 hour ago, mansr said:

So was Andrew Wakefield. Didn't stop him spouting bullshit for his own profit.

 

Here you have compared @Galen to a disgraced fraudulent former medical doctor responsible, through disease outbreaks because of unwarranted vaccine fears, for the deaths of children.

 

 

[Jud]

1 minute ago, mav52 said:

 

Now that would be a first. Has any audio cable company provided a measurement to support how a cable "should perform", or even perform musically.

 

Has any audio company provided a measurement supporting a difference that is "plausibly audible" in mansr's view?   

[Jud]

1 minute ago, BobBJC said:

Some have missed the point that Galen is not a Belden employee. He retired last May. A comment to the effect that "I will never buy Belden again," sounds like a spoiled little brat. LOL. Galen is also not a BLC employee. Galen, without compensation, promotes a better cable for the benefit of the hobby and industry.  Go figure.

 

Ah, well then for the sake of accuracy, in my comment above it should really be "unobjectionable products made by his *former* employer."

[Jud]

19 minutes ago, lasker98 said:

Another opportunity to gain valuable knowledge from someone willing to share, lost because of the same pathetic gang of know nothings making further participation pointless. Just great.

 

Though those who object certainly aren't "know nothings," I absolutely second your regret at the apparent loss of an opportunity to gain whatever knowledge might have been forthcoming from a simple friendly chat.

[Jud]

8 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

With all due respect, most here, on both sides of the "great divide", aren't looking to "gain valuable knowledge" but instead are simply seeking support for views they already hold.

 

Allow me to disagree not with your statement, but with the assumptions that motivate the behavior you describe.  Seeking support, views they already hold - sounds like battle or debate.  I'm not here for a debating contest or moral crusade (over bits of wire?).  I'd much prefer to have a friendly chat about a shared hobby, and learn something if I can.

 

I think devoting a little thought should make it evident that we can get to much the same place - get the same information, or note it hasn't been provided; form or reinforce the same opinions - without a lot of the sound and fury.

[Jud]

2 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

To be fair, wasn't it you who used the words "dark side" when starting the thread?

 

Yeah, I've been thinking about that.  The meaning I intended was to poke some gentle, friendly fun at folks who are always saying "Just buy some Belden or Blue Jeans and you'll be perfectly fine!"

 

Oh well.

[Jud]

Just now, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

I think BJC hasn't thought through their existing market.  On other forums, can't tell you how many times the "cable believers" have derided and mocked those who purchased and reported positive feedback with Blue Jeans Cable products.  Why?  Because they're just too inexpensive for the "believers" to believe they're any good.

 

 

Yes, that happens too - here as well, I've seen comments that the only reason you don't hear what I do is your system or your ears must be crap.

 

Not really a fun time either way, is it?

[Jud]

6 minutes ago, mav52 said:

 

And I will continue to buy Blue Jean and Belden cables,  but not from yet another high dollar audio cable company that wants you to trust their hearing, When I buy a car I have data, when I buy a camera I have data and thanks to some audio sites I can obtain data for components, but its not there on cables.  Why not , why is it so hard to NOT provide some data. 

 

There's a wealth of measurement data, and some data about sonic impacts, though of course I would like more.  This is certainly better than the vast majority of cable companies. So even though not satisfactory to many, some credit at least is due for the beginnings of an effort at a suite of cable specs.

[Jud]

As things appear to have reached a quite amazing, but perhaps not entirely surprising, level of futility and heat, as the OP I'm going to ask @The Computer Audiophile to lock the thread.  Anyone's free to continue cable discussion elsewhere.

 

Chris, my apologies for bothering you on vacation.