Qobuz streaming MQA CD's?

[spin33]

3 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

@spin33 great minds think alike but I used a different album. When I play this with the MQA decoder on it identifies on my MAC7200 screen as 24/88

 

Indeed 🙂

And 'Polyphony' is a great album btw! I have a purchased DSD version of it in my library as well.

[wklie]

On 1/29/2019 at 5:06 AM, dmackta said:

Guys it looks like a tagging issue with the 2L label.

 

Since @mav52 showed a Lumin playing it as MQA, I'd like to state that Lumin player MQA authentication does not depend on any tag at all.  For the Lumin front panel to show MQA indication, the music has to pass the check done by the MQA decoder.  This check is even done continuously, so a brief hypothetical corruption in the middle will result in a short reversion back to FLAC for the corruption, then indicate MQA again when the MQA authentication check succeeds again.

 

(There may be other MQA playback implementations that depend on tags, but tag-based identification is very unreliable as tags can be missing or wrongly added.)

[Cebolla]

2 hours ago, wklie said:

 

Since @mav52 showed a Lumin playing it as MQA, I'd like to state that Lumin player MQA authentication does not depend on any tag at all.  For the Lumin front panel to show MQA indication, the music has to pass the check done by the MQA decoder.  This check is even done continuously, so a brief hypothetical corruption in the middle will result in a short reversion back to FLAC for the corruption, then indicate MQA again when the MQA authentication check succeeds again.

 

Any chance you could officially confirm that your Lumin devices are currently receiving MQA encoded file tracks (without the MQA file tags) from Qobuz's online server?

 

It would certainly help @dmackta and others from Qobuz in their investigations.

[Miska]

I wouldn't be surprised if 2L delivers MQA-CD encoded tracks for RedBook streaming. And they seem to be one of the bigger MQA proponents. They also have some MQA-CD encoded test files in their usual test set:

http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html

 

[Patrick Cleasby]

Confirmed, as Miska and I thought. Morten Lindberg just posted this in the Roon community:

Morten_LindbergBalance Engineer and Recording Producer 2L

33m

 

What you experience is our MQA-CD which from 2L is now our standard resolution going out to all major services in a regular 16/44 WAV file. Tidal is different as they have this MQA16 in their lossy and HiFi but their Master tier is our original 24-bit full MQA. More info about the difference: http://bobtalks.co.uk/ 4

 

[Patrick Cleasby]

So now we should dig in to who is providing MQA 24/44.1's through Qobuz. I suggest y'all try the latest The Prodigy album...

 

[mansr]

9 hours ago, spin33 said:

@mansr & others...

I have the US Qobuz beta and am using it in conjunction with Roon via my Mac Mini dedicated server. Here is a 20 sec clip from track #1 of the 2L sampler album entitled 'The Nordic Sound'. Let me know if there are any issues accessing it or if there is anything lacking about the stream grab itself. I used Audio Hijack (with which I'm only minimally familiar) and I did disable MQA decoding in Roon for the grab.

 

For visual comparison's sake, I'm including screenshots of Roon playing the track w/ MQA decoding off, then MQA decoding turned on, then the Qobuz desktop app playing the same track. (Note that I have higher res streaming enabled in the Qobuz app, but it is defaulting to 16/44).

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5tlj3hj2x03va85/20190129 2022 Recording.wav?dl=0

 

 

That's MQA alright:

00001a97: MQA signature at bit 8
00001a97: [5] datasync
          magic                     36: 0x11319207d
          stream_pos_flag            1: 1
          pad                        1: 1
          orig_rate                  5: 0x03 [352.8 kHz]
          src_rate                   5: 0x00 [44.1 kHz]
          render_filter              5: 6
          unknown_1                  5: 0x04
          unknown_2                  1: 0
          pad                        2: 0
          auth_info                  4: 0x0
          auth_level                 4: 0x4
          item_count                 7: 2
          size                       8: 0xc2
          size                       8: 0x20
          type                       8: 0x00
          type                       8: 0x01
          stream_position           32: 0x00003df4
          [type 0]
          stage2_dither              2: 2
          gain_index                 4: 0
          unknown_5                  7: 15
          unknown_6                  7: 127
          start_pos                 27: 0x0000200 [0x4000]
          pad                        1: 0
          data                     146: [skipped]
          [type 1]
          unknown_7                  6: 25
          unknown_8                  2: 1
          unknown_9                  1: 0
          unknown_10                 2: 1
          unknown_11                 8: 255
          unknown_12                 1: 1
          unknown_13                12: 128 [0x4080]
          checksum                   4: 0xd

 

[mansr]

36 minutes ago, Patrick Cleasby said:

Confirmed, as Miska and I thought. Morten Lindberg just posted this in the Roon community:

Morten_LindbergBalance Engineer and Recording Producer 2L

33m

 

What you experience is our MQA-CD which from 2L is now our standard resolution going out to all major services in a regular 16/44 WAV file. Tidal is different as they have this MQA16 in their lossy and HiFi but their Master tier is our original 24-bit full MQA. More info about the difference: http://bobtalks.co.uk/ 4

 

Remember when we warned that labels might stop distributing plain PCM? Remember how we were scoffed at? It's already happening.

[rickca]

@dmackta if Qobuz is forced by the labels to distribute MQA and withdraw high res that will be the end of my subscription after more than 3.5 years.

[Jud]

58 minutes ago, rickca said:

@dmackta if Qobuz is forced by the labels to distribute MQA and withdraw high res that will be the end of my subscription after more than 3.5 years.

 

There's that option.  Another I can think of is to publish a list of labels that provide MQA to Qobuz (and/or Tidal), not stream tracks from those labels (so they derive no streaming revenue, however little that is), and inform the labels you won't be purchasing or streaming any of their product as long as they support MQA.

[rickca]

16 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

There's that option.  Another I can think of is to publish a list of labels that provide MQA to Qobuz (and/or Tidal), not stream tracks from those labels (so they derive no streaming revenue, however little that is), and inform the labels you won't be purchasing or streaming any of their product as long as they support MQA.

If the major labels do it there will hardly be anything non-MQA left to stream/download and a subscription would have no value.

[mansr]

25 minutes ago, Jud said:

There's that option.  Another I can think of is to publish a list of labels that provide MQA to Qobuz (and/or Tidal), not stream tracks from those labels (so they derive no streaming revenue, however little that is), and inform the labels you won't be purchasing or streaming any of their product as long as they support MQA.

Even if you don't stream any MQA titles, a part of your subscription fee will still go those labels as long as someone does.

[Jud]

1 minute ago, mansr said:

Even if you don't stream any MQA titles, a part of your subscription fee will still go those labels as long as someone does.

 

Yes. Publicizing as widely as possible the list and the objections to MQA from both an audio and market control standpoint would be a good thing.

[phosphorein]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

That's MQA alright:

00001a97: MQA signature at bit 8
00001a97: [5] datasync
          magic                     36: 0x11319207d
          stream_pos_flag            1: 1
          pad                        1: 1
          orig_rate                  5: 0x03 [352.8 kHz]
          src_rate                   5: 0x00 [44.1 kHz]
          render_filter              5: 6
          unknown_1                  5: 0x04
          unknown_2                  1: 0
          pad                        2: 0
          auth_info                  4: 0x0
          auth_level                 4: 0x4
          item_count                 7: 2
          size                       8: 0xc2
          size                       8: 0x20
          type                       8: 0x00
          type                       8: 0x01
          stream_position           32: 0x00003df4
          [type 0]
          stage2_dither              2: 2
          gain_index                 4: 0
          unknown_5                  7: 15
          unknown_6                  7: 127
          start_pos                 27: 0x0000200 [0x4000]
          pad                        1: 0
          data                     146: [skipped]
          [type 1]
          unknown_7                  6: 25
          unknown_8                  2: 1
          unknown_9                  1: 0
          unknown_10                 2: 1
          unknown_11                 8: 255
          unknown_12                 1: 1
          unknown_13                12: 128 [0x4080]
          checksum                   4: 0xd

 

 

Yes, so why doesn't Audirvana not recognize the MQA tag on Qobuz as it does on Tidal?

[Jud]

16 minutes ago, rickca said:

If the major labels do it there will hardly be anything non-MQA left to stream/download and a subscription would have no value.

 

Yes, we may be left with no choice. I would like to try as long as possible a strategy to reward companies that want to provide real Redbook and hi res streaming, while at the same time letting them know the objections to MQA.  It's the same as anything else I suppose - you try persuasion, and if your pleas fall on deaf ears, you stop patronizing them.

[spin33]

2 hours ago, Patrick Cleasby said:

So now we should dig in to who is providing MQA 24/44.1's through Qobuz. I suggest y'all try the latest The Prodigy album...

 

 

Are you suggesting that you’re seeing that coming thru as MQA? I just tried both the 16/44 and the 24/44 versions I see available in Qobuz via my US Beta acct & Roon and am seeing no MQA indication (as I do with all 2L titles). Could be a location/regional thing I suppose. 

[mansr]

9 minutes ago, phosphorein said:

Yes, so why doesn't Audirvana not recognize the MQA tag on Qobuz as it does on Tidal?

Maybe it relies on some metadata to identify MQA titles. @damien78 would know.

[Patrick Cleasby]

24 minutes ago, mansr said:

Maybe it relies on some metadata to identify MQA titles. @damien78 would know.

 

So stealth MQA won't be decoded as such by A+. Hmm

[Patrick Cleasby]

26 minutes ago, spin33 said:

 

Are you suggesting that you’re seeing that coming thru as MQA? I just tried both the 16/44 and the 24/44 versions I see available in Qobuz via my US Beta acct & Roon and am seeing no MQA indication (as I do with all 2L titles). Could be a location/regional thing I suppose. 

I just remember seeing some weird things when I had an all to brief play with roon and Qobuz at the weekend. I need another weekend to be certain. There are other suspect titles... Paul Weller?

[mav52]

On 1/28/2019 at 4:04 PM, mav52 said:

Interesting, I went into Qobuz and pulled up  The Nordic Sound and my Lumin shows, MQA. I'm in Beta and my account is set up as Studio.

 

 

 

PS, I'm not using ROON

[crenca]

4 hours ago, Patrick Cleasby said:

Confirmed, as Miska and I thought. Morten Lindberg just posted this in the Roon community:

Morten_LindbergBalance Engineer and Recording Producer 2L

33m

 

What you experience is our MQA-CD which from 2L is now our standard resolution going out to all major services in a regular 16/44 WAV file. Tidal is different as they have this MQA16 in their lossy and HiFi but their Master tier is our original 24-bit full MQA. More info about the difference: http://bobtalks.co.uk/ 4

 

 

I asked:

 

@Qobuz,

Now that 2L (through @Morten_Lindberg) have confirmed that they are not providing you with standard 16/44 PCM but a proprietary, IP protected, and (if I am not mistaken) licensed (as in Quobuz needs an agreement with MQA to stream it) format, what say you? How does being an MQA streaming partner fit into your overall strategy vis-a-vis “Hi Res” and your consumer positioning?

 

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/qobuz-subscriptions-questions/58691/17?u=crenca

[Patrick Cleasby]

2 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

I asked:

 

@Qobuz,

Now that 2L (through @Morten_Lindberg) have confirmed that they are not providing you with standard 16/44 PCM but a proprietary, IP protected, and (if I am not mistaken) licensed (as in Quobuz needs an agreement with MQA to stream it) format, what say you? How does being an MQA streaming partner fit into your overall strategy vis-a-vis “Hi Res” and your consumer positioning?

 

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/qobuz-subscriptions-questions/58691/17?u=crenca

 

I have separately highlighted to Qobuz (at quite a high level) that this debate has kicked off here yesterday and updated with the 2L response today. No answer yet here either.

[dmackta]

@crenca and @Patrick Cleasby - Our system has no way to tell if a 16/44 file supplied to us by a label includes this MQA-CD material. We are exploring this now as it hasn't come up until the Roon integration. Our apps see and play the file as regular CD quality. Our supply chain team will speak to the label. We aren't an MQA partner and offering MQA is not on our roadmap at this time.

 

[mansr]

1 minute ago, dmackta said:

@crenca and @Patrick Cleasby - Our system has no way to tell if a 16/44 file supplied to us by a label includes this MQA-CD material. We are exploring this now as it hasn't come up until the Roon integration. Our apps see and play the file as regular CD quality. Our supply chain team will speak to the label. We aren't an MQA partner and offering MQA is not on our roadmap at this time.

I've made a tool to scan any file for MQA signatures. Feel free to use it, and let me know if you need assistance.

[crenca]

9 minutes ago, dmackta said:

@crenca and @Patrick Cleasby - Our system has no way to tell if a 16/44 file supplied to us by a label includes this MQA-CD material. We are exploring this now as it hasn't come up until the Roon integration. Our apps see and play the file as regular CD quality. Our supply chain team will speak to the label. We aren't an MQA partner and offering MQA is not on our roadmap at this time.

 

 

Thanks for the response.  While I sympathize with your systems agnosticism toward standard 16/44 and MQA, I wonder on a legal/IP level if that in any way covers you.  Perhaps it does - MQA would be wise to not require any license agreement from you from a market penetration standpoint.

 

From a consumer side I can not "excuse" your lack of awareness however.  You are an MQA "partner" from our perspective, rather you realized or intended this or not.  Even if you end up being "ok" streaming MQA from a market/consumer positioning standpoint, one would hope you did not come to this conclusion by accident.