Ralf11 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Which aspects of or factors in sound quality have no measurements that correspond to them? Either cases where the measurements have not yet been made, or cases where the measurements cannot be made... counter example: frequency response possible example: "sense of space" or "real instruments playing in real space" Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted December 11, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: Which aspects of or factors in sound quality have no measurements that correspond to them? Either cases where the measurements have not yet been made, or cases where the measurements cannot be made... counter example: frequency response possible example: "sense of space" or "real instruments playing in real space" Two I can think of: 1) What is subjectively and variously called "resolution", "micro detail", etc., and sometimes confusingly a sense of "grain" or "smoothness". Distortion, FR, etc. are no doubt related but are not exhaustive. 3) A sense of "presence" or "thereness" or "liveliness" or "realness" or "immediacy" (and could be related to what the brits call PRAT). Again, measurements seem to be related but not exhaustive. jabbr and Jud 2 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted December 11, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 11, 2018 Anything that happens outside the head can be measured. Things happening inside the head, i.e. perception, cannot in general. Most of the properties the reviewers in magazines discuss aren't defined well enough to be quantified at all. I'd even say many of them are not definable. Sal1950, semente and skikirkwood 3 Link to comment
Popular Post wgscott Posted December 11, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 11, 2018 I tried this once, and there were so many hijackers it felt like a Saudi royal family reunion. https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/32034-what-uncontroversial-audible-differences-cannot-be-measured/ Ralf11, esldude, Hugo9000 and 1 other 1 2 1 Link to comment
Jud Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Ralf11 said: Which aspects of or factors in sound quality have no measurements that correspond to them? Either cases where the measurements have not yet been made, or cases where the measurements cannot be made... counter example: frequency response possible example: "sense of space" or "real instruments playing in real space" I have always thought the sense of space, or "soundstage" if you like, is at least somewhat susceptible to measurement, else it wouldn't be so trivially subject to manipulation. Phase, timing and loudness differences all play into this, as does the room response. For what is currently difficult to measure, I'd go along with mansr and say our emotional response, and to a lesser extent our individual auditory response. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Is the current line of AP measurement gear already as sensitive/accurate/precise as our ear/brain system? I know some will say yes but I guess my next question to them is how do you know? Specifically the AP measurement gear commonly used for our gear - not NASA's or Intel's measurement gear. Link to comment
fas42 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Good thread topic ... the obvious one for me is the transition into what I call competent sound - subjectively, this can be quite a dramatic difference, but objectively all that has happened is that the level of some distortion or noise anomaly is just a bit less than that prior to the transition. I believe any sort of conventional measurement, trying to pinpoint the key difference, would show very little of interest - specialist test signals most likely would need to be developed, to make it easier to register the change taking place. "Sense of space" or "real instruments playing in real space" are part of the package of competent playback - I wouldn't see any point in trying to separate out those, as individually 'measurable'. Link to comment
audiventory Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 11 hours ago, Ralf11 said: Which aspects of or factors in sound quality have no measurements that correspond to them? I don't know such factors. I suppose, measurement tool are more precise, than ears. Because, there we can see smallest parts of degree and dB. We can measure all factors (sometimes in laboratory only) from mic to speaker. All subjective characteristics, like "macro/microdinamics", "air", "sand", etc. are distortions, SNR, dynamic range, etc. (if perception difference is not imaginary). However, when we capture real acoustical sources, we capture acoustic wave field. And there we have there enough low level of control currently, due very complex wave interferention. Read details: https://samplerateconverter.com/content/where-limit-audio-quality Also there is issues with psychoacoustics' knowledges: how to interprete measurement results. AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HD audio converter/optimizer for DAC of high resolution files ISO, DSF, DFF (1-bit/D64/128/256/512/1024), wav, flac, aiff, alac, safe CD ripper to PCM/DSF, Seamless Album Conversion, AIFF, WAV, FLAC, DSF metadata editor, Mac & WindowsOffline conversion save energy and nature Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, audiventory said: I suppose, measurement tool are more precise, than ears. Because, there we can see smallest parts of degree and dB. So you are saying the ear/brain system can't detect these differences? Link to comment
audiventory Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 2 hours ago, Em2016 said: So you are saying the ear/brain system can't detect these differences? There are opinion (from common experience), that 1-2 dB difference is detected by ear, as rule. But, I doubt, that 0.0001 (1e-4) dB difference is exactly detected by ear. However, such measurement presicion is not rare in my work. AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HD audio converter/optimizer for DAC of high resolution files ISO, DSF, DFF (1-bit/D64/128/256/512/1024), wav, flac, aiff, alac, safe CD ripper to PCM/DSF, Seamless Album Conversion, AIFF, WAV, FLAC, DSF metadata editor, Mac & WindowsOffline conversion save energy and nature Link to comment
mansr Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 4 hours ago, Em2016 said: So you are saying the ear/brain system can't detect these differences? The brain can only interpret what the ear is able to detect. Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 13 minutes ago, mansr said: The brain can only interpret what the ear is able to detect. True. But I also feel this discussion needs an expert Physiologist here. It may be beyond Engineers ? Again I'm not talking about NASA level measurement gear but the stuff commonly used to design our own gear (e.g. AP). Somebody will always chime in and say we can send gear to the moon, to Mars etc etc. Let's not talk about the measurement equipment that audio gear designers don't typically have access to. Can the ear detect transients better than AP gear? If you say no - how do you know? I'm asking because I'm interested to know - just in case it reads like I'm being a smart ass. Link to comment
vortecjr Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 You guys haven’t been to Disney World.... lucretius 1 SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
audiventory Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 17 minutes ago, Em2016 said: But I also feel this discussion needs an expert Physiologist here. It may be beyond Engineers I think, to be proper specialist, today is not enough to be expert in single science or branch only. AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HD audio converter/optimizer for DAC of high resolution files ISO, DSF, DFF (1-bit/D64/128/256/512/1024), wav, flac, aiff, alac, safe CD ripper to PCM/DSF, Seamless Album Conversion, AIFF, WAV, FLAC, DSF metadata editor, Mac & WindowsOffline conversion save energy and nature Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, audiventory said: I think, to be proper specialist, today is not enough to be expert in single science or branch only. True. So we need a Biomedical Engineer here, with training in both Physiology AND Electrical Engineering. Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 12 minutes ago, vortecjr said: You guys haven’t been to Disney World.... Ha, why? Link to comment
Popular Post vortecjr Posted December 12, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 12, 2018 I’m just suggesting that your brain uses all its senses...Disney takes advantage of this. 4est and asdf1000 2 SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
iaval Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 If I want to measure by ear, where should I connect the test probes? I tried various sockets and none seems to be compatible with any standard oscope 50Ohm probes. Should I try contacting the OEM for optional accessories? Link to comment
PeterSt Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 RCA is undefined. Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, iaval said: If I want to measure by ear, where should I connect the test probes? I tried various sockets and none seems to be compatible with any standard oscope 50Ohm probes. Hehe, not sure anyone has suggested resorting to measurement by ear alone? Link to comment
iaval Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 23 minutes ago, Em2016 said: Hehe, not sure anyone has suggested resorting to measurement by ear alone? Some did, they'd say "use your ears", but I can't even find the service manual for that to check for input parameters. I tried all sorts of plugs, all sorts of configurations, impedances, standards and Vrms but I'm still getting no sound, only microsonics from the unstable connection. So I figured the best way to enjoy music is with a scope. asdf1000 1 Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted December 12, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 12, 2018 35 minutes ago, iaval said: If I want to measure by ear, where should I connect the test probes? I tried various sockets and none seems to be compatible with any standard oscope 50Ohm probes. Should I try contacting the OEM for optional accessories? Good luck contacting OEM. Apparently he responds to a chosen few. Talk about poor support. And no warranty provided. Superdad and iaval 1 1 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
iaval Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 minute ago, pkane2001 said: And no warranty provided. More puzzling is the fact that more than 108 billion pairs of them were made (7.6 bilion pairs are in active use) and they can get away with such borderline non-existent return policy. Link to comment
mansr Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Just now, iaval said: More puzzling is the fact that more than 108 billion pairs of them were made (7.6 bilion pairs are in active use) and they can get away with such borderline non-existent return policy. Van Gogh didn't even get a replacement. Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted December 12, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 12, 2018 34 minutes ago, mansr said: Van Gogh didn't even get a replacement. That was due to an unauthorized modification, so not covered by warranty. crenca and lucretius 2 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
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