How much does it cost to be an audiophile?

[gmgraves]

9 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

I don't think there is anything wrong with the equipment being part of the hobby. I believe that there is too much focus on those audiophiles that  focus more on the equipment than the music. It is like that is the only kind of audiophile and we are reinventing the definition. Everyone on this forum could be defined as "audiophile".

Not only do I agree, but I don't see anything wrong with those audiophiles whose main focus is the equipment.

 

[gmgraves]

5 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Do you have a 1GHZ Square Wave Generator that I can borrow to try this ? 

Yep but it weighs 60 pounds and you have to pay the shipping to OZ, BOTH WAYS!

[mansr]

12 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Seems like a contradiction to me, mansr. I assume that budding audiophiles (both of them) do just what you suggest. They purchase the most competent system that they can afford and are generally happy with it for a while. But as they gain listening experience, start reading the magazines and start going to shows, they begin to see (hear?) the shortcomings of their current systems and start to look for ways to improve the sound they are getting. Buy a new DAC, a new amp, perhaps better speakers, etc. are the pathways to a better system, so they start to upgrade. It's a natural progression for this hobby. My first system was modest, even by that days' standard, but I kept upgrading it By the time I was at my first real job out of college, I had replaced everything and I never looked back. I do now of course. There are things I had that I would give my eye-teeth to have again (my Audio Empire 498 Troubadour turntable, for instance or that tank of a three-motor Pioneer cassette recorder which I sold when I bought the Aiwa F9000 which, while giving superior performance, wasn't as well made and died after a few years) but mostly every move was a sonic upgrade.  

If the goal is sound reproduction with good fidelity, the rate of component replacement should be decreasing over time. For some, however, it seems that the process of trying out new gear has taken over and come to dominate the original objective of enjoying music. This turns into a way of life, and in some cases the afflicted even start belittling those who are not perpetually looking for the next replacement.

[mansr]

23 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

I am actually curious too. You know a lot about audio, clearly, but sometimes I wonder what motivates you.

I like music, and I understand the technology that delivers it. Combine the two.

[gmgraves]

Just now, mansr said:

If the goal is sound reproduction with good fidelity, the rate of component replacement should be decreasing over time. For some, however, it seems that the process of trying out new gear has taken over and come to dominate the original objective of enjoying music. This turns into a way of life, and in some cases the afflicted even start belittling those who are not perpetually looking for the next replacement.

Certainly. There is a section of the audiophile community to whom the equipment is the focus. There is also a type of personality that believes that the road to happiness is paved with new acquisitions. Audiophiles with that personality (it's a common personality trait) are continually upgrading. Have you never heard a woman say that shopping for new clothes makes her happy? Guys don't like to shop, per se, but their version of this trait is to be always purchasing some new doo-dad for whatever hobby they're into. The act of acquiring something new releases endorphins making the buyer feel good. Unfortunately it wears off soon and the desire to do it again raises it's expensive head!

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

2 minutes ago, mansr said:

If the goal is sound reproduction with good fidelity, the rate of component replacement should be decreasing over time. For some, however, it seems that the process of trying out new gear has taken over and come to dominate the original objective of enjoying music. This turns into a way of life, and in some cases the afflicted even start belittling those who are not perpetually looking for the next replacement.

 

IME the belittling is way more skewed in the opposite direction. I speculate that that is because they are considered "afflicted" and somehow this equates with the need to be ridiculed. Sure they bite back but it might be expected if someone is painted afflicted. Just sayin

[AudioDoctor]

24 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

Sure. I think GUTB might be saying that it doesn't have to stop there which is fine by me, unless of course you are happy at that point and that is also fine. The problem as I see it is the notion that you must feel compelled to upgrade at all costs, costs no object.

 

If that is what I thought he was saying, I would be fine with it.  However, I don't think it is, nor do I think GUTB would agree that person is an audiophile because the equipment doesn't meet his criteria for audiophilia

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

2 minutes ago, mansr said:

I like music, and I understand the technology that delivers it. Combine the two.

 

Then you are an audiophile (not that you have said otherwise?)

[sandyk]

1 minute ago, gmgraves said:

Yep but it weighs 60 pounds and you have to pay the shipping to OZ, BOTH WAYS!

Then how about I send you a bunch of cables to test ? 

[mansr]

1 minute ago, gmgraves said:

Certainly. There is a section of the audiophile community to whom the equipment is the focus. There is also a type of personality that believes that the road to happiness is paved with new acquisitions. Audiophiles with that personality (it's a common personality trait) are continually upgrading. Have you never heard a woman say that shopping for new clothes makes her happy? Guys don't like to shop, per se, but their version of this trait is to be always purchasing some new doo-dad for whatever hobby they're into. The act of acquiring something new releases endorphins making the buyer feel good. Unfortunately it wears off soon and the desire to do it again raises it's expensive head!

I can comprehend such explanations for the behaviour. At the same time, I think it's unfortunate that this has become a defining trait of audiophiles. GUTB is a caricature of an audiophile, yet the attitudes he represents have poisoned the marketplace, both by driving up prices on quality equipment and by legitimising all manner of snake oil to the point that it's difficult to find a manufacturer or vendor who isn't complicit in the grand scam, even if not actively participating in it.

[GUTB]

I’m going to be attending THE Show this weekend, and I’m going to listen to a lot of systems. Now that I’ve settled on the ProAc D30Rs I’m on the hunt for an amp/pre or integrated that can take them to the next level. A wider strategic aim is to build a system that can reveal more benifits from higher end sources.

 

This is a normal audiophile process. Attaining higher sonic benifits always results in spending more. I’m fully prepared to face the fact that any good enough amp is going to have an MSRP over $10k. Of course I’ll hunt the used market, maybe get a show deal, etc. The price isn’t the goal, it’s just a barrier. I wish I can just go onto Amazon buy some Cambridge, Yamaha, Marantz, etc, and have that next performance level upgrade — but that isn’t possible.

 

Also, it’s not like the D30Rs are my stopping point just because I like them a lot. One day maybe I can have TADs. The great thing about being an audiophile is that your music library evolves with your system. 

[Rt66indierock]

7 minutes ago, GUTB said:

I’m going to be attending THE Show this weekend, and I’m going to listen to a lot of systems. Now that I’ve settled on the ProAc D30Rs I’m on the hunt for an amp/pre or integrated that can take them to the next level. A wider strategic aim is to build a system that can reveal more benifits from higher end sources.

 

This is a normal audiophile process. Attaining higher sonic benifits always results in spending more. I’m fully prepared to face the fact that any good enough amp is going to have an MSRP over $10k. Of course I’ll hunt the used market, maybe get a show deal, etc. The price isn’t the goal, it’s just a barrier. I wish I can just go onto Amazon buy some Cambridge, Yamaha, Marantz, etc, and have that next performance level upgrade — but that isn’t possible.

 

Also, it’s not like the D30Rs are my stopping point just because I like them a lot. One day maybe I can have TADs. The great thing about being an audiophile is that your music library evolves with your system. 

 

T.H.E. Show should be fun are you going make Steve Hoffman's visit in Room 304 Saturday?  PM sent

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

I like music, and I understand the technology that delivers it. Combine the two.

Do you also have an interest in things like hi res video and perhaps hi res audio on Blu Ray ?

[esldude]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

I’m going to be attending THE Show this weekend, and I’m going to listen to a lot of systems. Now that I’ve settled on the ProAc D30Rs I’m on the hunt for an amp/pre or integrated that can take them to the next level. A wider strategic aim is to build a system that can reveal more benifits from higher end sources.

 

This is a normal audiophile process. Attaining higher sonic benifits always results in spending more. I’m fully prepared to face the fact that any good enough amp is going to have an MSRP over $10k. Of course I’ll hunt the used market, maybe get a show deal, etc. The price isn’t the goal, it’s just a barrier. I wish I can just go onto Amazon buy some Cambridge, Yamaha, Marantz, etc, and have that next performance level upgrade — but that isn’t possible.

 

Also, it’s not like the D30Rs are my stopping point just because I like them a lot. One day maybe I can have TADs. The great thing about being an audiophile is that your music library evolves with your system. 

How did you come to settle on the Proac D30 R speakers?

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

 I think it's unfortunate that this has become a defining trait of audiophiles.

Only if you redefine the definition based on audiophiles with that behaviour. 

2 hours ago, mansr said:

GUTB is a caricature of an audiophile, yet the attitudes he represents have poisoned the marketplace, both by driving up prices on quality equipment and by legitimising all manner of snake oil to the point that it's difficult to find a manufacturer or vendor who isn't complicit in the grand scam, even if not actively participating in it.

But you can still find quality gear that is value for money right.you can choose to ignore products that you have deemed rip offs.

I get there is a bigger political picture here,the grand scam, but in the scheme of things there are more important things to worry about imo. .its just audio and like with many products as they say, buyer beware .

[Jud]

22 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

Only if you redefine the definition based on audiophiles with that behaviour. 

But you can still find quality gear that is value for money right.you can choose to ignore products that you have deemed rip offs.

I get there is a bigger political picture here,the grand scam, but in the scheme of things there are more important things to worry about imo. .its just audio and like with many products as they say, buyer beware .

 

When I went to a couple of dozen audio dealers around 30 years ago researching my first high end digital system, they seemed to me to follow a bell curve - a very few straight rip-off artists, many clustered slightly to the better or worse side of mediocre, and a very few very good or excellent ones.  I think the marketplace is still like that, but we’ve got a lot more than a couple of dozen to choose from due to the Internet.

[GUTB]

1 hour ago, esldude said:

How did you come to settle on the Proac D30 R speakers?

 

I’ve had my eyes on them for 2 years after I first heard them at a dealer. I heard them again at another dealer at some length, and I knew it had most of what I wanted at an attainable price — dynamic, resolving, super imagers and very nice ribbon tweeters that produce crystal clear non-fatiguing highs. The newer D-series with ribbons don’t come up used that often so when one popped up I grabbed them and so far it’s been a great move...even though I ended up having to get rid of the Linnenberg monos which are very fine amps and a big value at $5.4k; they just couldn’t handle the ProAcs.

 

So I ended up with a used Odyssey Stratos because according to Straus at Oddessey his amps match very well with ProAcs and at $800 used it was a no-brainer as a filler amp. This "filler" amp is actually very nice, and anyone who’s visited Odyssey rooms knows that they are very good performers. It’s just that I don’t want just "good", I want to take the ProAcs to the next level. Amps that I’ve heard at shows that stood out to me: Mark Levinson 585, Linnenberg Alegros, some Audionet, CH Precision, VAC Statement, Raven Audio Shaman monos. I’ve heard some great systems like Esoteric, TAD and GamuT but it’s hard to separate the amp from the rest of the system sonically speaking. Some of these amps are attainable...some are aspirational.

 

So what’s wrong with Odyssey? Nothing (except for it popping my speakers when turned on/off...it’s 16 years old maybe I’ll send it in for service/upgrades), it’s a GOOD amp, doesn’t suck at all. It’s just not next-level gear, and I want my ProAcs to go next level.

[esldude]

26 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

I’ve had my eyes on them for 2 years after I first heard them at a dealer. I heard them again at another dealer at some length, and I knew it had most of what I wanted at an attainable price — dynamic, resolving, super imagers and very nice ribbon tweeters that produce crystal clear non-fatiguing highs. The newer D-series with ribbons don’t come up used that often so when one popped up I grabbed them and so far it’s been a great move...even though I ended up having to get rid of the Linnenberg monos which are very fine amps and a big value at $5.4k; they just couldn’t handle the ProAcs.

 

So I ended up with a used Odyssey Stratos because according to Straus at Oddessey his amps match very well with ProAcs and at $800 used it was a no-brainer as a filler amp. This "filler" amp is actually very nice, and anyone who’s visited Odyssey rooms knows that they are very good performers. It’s just that I don’t want just "good", I want to take the ProAcs to the next level. Amps that I’ve heard at shows that stood out to me: Mark Levinson 585, Linnenberg Alegros, some Audiolab, CH Precision, VAC Statement, Raven Audio Shaman monos. I’ve heard some great systems like Esoteric, TAD and GamuT but it’s hard to separate the amp from the rest of the system sonically speaking. Some of these amps are attainable...some are aspirational.

 

So what’s wrong with Odyssey? Nothing (except for it popping my speakers when turned on/off...it’s 16 years old maybe I’ll send it in for service/upgrades), it’s a GOOD amp, doesn’t suck at all. It’s just not next-level gear, and I want my ProAcs to go next level.

Well those are biampable.  I would think something for the ribbons and something else for the low end makes lots of sense.  With some synergy you might get performance beyond expectations. 

 

The Linnenberg might have been a good choice for the ribbons.  Or maybe some wide bandwidth tubes like the OTL Atmaspheres for the ribbons.  Or maybe David Berning OTLs. Then maybe a more conventional good xfmr coupled tube amp for the low end.  The VACs are probably a good guess on that end.  Or the Wolcott audio amps. 

 

Of course the Berning amps or Wolcotts might make a good choice even single amped. 

[mansr]

7 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

But you can still find quality gear that is value for money right.you can choose to ignore products that you have deemed rip offs.

Sure, but a lot of equipment has inflated prices due to pointless expensive add-ons like casework in solid silver or whatnot. In some cases (pardon the pun), the case alone allegedly accounts for half the production cost, which translates to half the retail price.

[4est]

17 hours ago, mansr said:

I don't understand the constant talk about upgrade paths and what to get next. Is it not permitted to simply buy a competent system one can afford and be happy with it (for the time being)?

Well of course, but then why are they here? This site is at least partially about equipment/upgrade paths after all...

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

5 minutes ago, mansr said:

8 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

But you can still find quality gear that is value for money right.you can choose to ignore products that you have deemed rip offs.

 

Sure, but a lot of equipment has inflated prices due to pointless expensive add-ons like casework in solid silver or whatnot. In some cases (pardon the pun), the case alone allegedly accounts for half the production cost, which translates to half the retail price.

 

But you can still find quality gear that is value for money right.you can choose to ignore products that you have deemed rip offs.

[Nordkapp]

10 minutes ago, mansr said:

Sure, but a lot of equipment has inflated prices due to pointless expensive add-ons like casework in solid silver or whatnot. In some cases (pardon the pun), the case alone allegedly accounts for half the production cost, which translates to half the retail price.

A la Dan D'Agostino products. My God. 

[mansr]

1 minute ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

But you can still find quality gear that is value for money right.you can choose to ignore products that you have deemed rip offs.

Not if you're looking for something that could be considered high end (let's assume these components really do have spectacularly better sound than more modest ones).

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

6 minutes ago, mansr said:

Not if you're looking for something that could be considered high end (let's assume these components really do have spectacularly better sound than more modest ones).

 

ok lets play this game. Who cares if its high end. If it measures good it sounds good.Are you telling me only the ones with silver cases measure well?

[mansr]

37 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

ok lets play this game. Who cares if its high end. If it measures good it sounds good.Are you telling me only the ones with silver cases measure well?

I never said anything remotely like that. There are, however, many who insist that the expensive gear sounds significantly better than cheaper products. Let's assume, for sake of argument, that they are right. Some of the expensive stuff does use unusual circuitry too, so it's not entirely implausible that it at least sounds different. The problem I see is that you can't get the supposedly good electronics without paying through your nose for the bling casework etc.