How much does it cost to be an audiophile?

[4est]

1 hour ago, Solstice380 said:

 

There are participants at CA who only post in the Music forum, and some who only post in Hardware.   And then there are those who live here! ?.  All are audiophiles.  

 

I bet there are a lot of audiophiles who haven’t even heard of CA.  

Yeah, but I don't hear people getting down talked because they pay/buy too much for music. Audiophile-ness seems to be one of those charged topics that gets overly polarized.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

I can't argue with that sentiment in any way, mansr. You are quite correct. The GUTBs of this world coupled with the nuveau riche who just want to show off to their peers how much their trophy wives/trophy cars/trophy homes/trophy stereo systems cost. There are lots of them, and very few are audiophiles or even like music (beyond what they listened to in high-school and college). I've known a bunch of them. They are anything but audiophiles. They call-up an A/V specialist that I know, and tell him that they want the costliest audio system money can buy and my acquaintance provides it. Once these guys have the costly system installed, they rarely (if ever) play it except to show it off. I have nothing against the rich enjoying their money, were I among them, I'd do many similar things. I'd have a great sports car (a stable of great cars, actually) and I'd have a megabuck stereo system and great room to listen to it in. The difference is that I will have picked every piece of gear in that room for their performance, not because they cost the most.

 

 

The nouveau riche will always be there and like you I also have a dealer friend attesting to them buying the most expensive kit but being clueless about sound quality.

 

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

I find the rich dilettante disgusting and I do blame the audio community for pandering to that market instead of focusing on their core clientele, we who will buy audio equipment because it's our passion, not because it cost a small (or a large) fortune!

 

I fall short of "disgust", it is a strong word.Not a lot excites me that way and frankly I don't care enough about the nouveau riche.

 

My real disagreement is regarding the audio community accommodating these people. It would be naive to think that a dealer would be anything other than delighted to have these customers. I don't think that means they don't equally look after their core clientele. I see it as a food chain of sorts. A long time ago I had a very good relationship with a dealer whereby I bought the second hand trade-ins of the rich folk, and at a great price. The dealer moved the second hand stock and made his profit selling new stuff. When I did buy new stuff he also looked after me with both price and service.

[Ralf11]

Dealers are susceptible to both confirmation bias and the desire to maximize profits.

 

sure, "some I assume are good people"...

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

2 hours ago, Solstice380 said:

 

There are participants at CA who only post in the Music forum, and some who only post in Hardware.   [..].  All are audiophiles.  

 

Arguably everyone on this site is an audiophile. Some audiophiles consider other audiophiles audiofools.

 

2 hours ago, Solstice380 said:

 

   And then there are those who live here! ?. 

 

Ralph feels at home here, leave him alone !

(says me closely watching my post count steadily increase ?)

 

2 hours ago, Solstice380 said:

I bet there are a lot of audiophiles who haven’t even heard of CA.  

 

Now you're just being silly ?

[Nordkapp]

Hey, if you have the disposable income, then why the hell not go all in on the esoteric stuff. It's a free country. Would I do it? No. But I'm also an educated, 20+ year enthusiast, not to mention a working class shlub. Notice I did not refer to myself as an audiophile. 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 minute ago, Nordkapp said:

I'm also an educated, 20+ year enthusiast.

 

me too, 20 + ...42 ?

[Jud]

3 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

me too, 20 + ...42 ?

 

If you count from when I bought my first “stereo system” and got really interested in music reproduction, 50.

[opus101]

56 minutes ago, mansr said:

ICs have a huge advantage in component matching as well as thermal coupling, both very important for an R2R DAC. There is no way a discrete design will get even close to an IC in this application.

 

Not to mention matching the timing of the various switches. R2R DACs have glitching related to how closely in time the switches operate, I can't see how a discrete design can approach the matching achievable on-die.

[Nordkapp]

16 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

me too, 20 + ...42 ?

48. Go Gen Xr's!!

[Nordkapp]

13 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

If you count from when I bought my first “stereo system” and got really interested in music reproduction, 50.

Damn. That's some time served!

[opus101]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

I read in an online forum, recently where somebody tested an MSB Diamond V DAC against a Benchmark 3 with the new Analog Devices SabreDac Pro, and found that the Benchmark both measured and sounded better.

 

Got a heads-up for which forum that was? I'd be interested to read that. Btw, its ESS not ADI that makes 'SabreDACs'.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

I think a perfect example of that are the MSB Diamond series DACs. They are incredibly expensive and they use ladder DACs (also called R2R, and Multibit DACs) of their own design and executed in discrete components. Then the whole megellah is potted in epoxy and housed in a gold-plated aluminum "brick". I read in an online forum, recently where somebody tested an MSB Diamond V DAC against a Benchmark 3 with the new Analog Devices SabreDac Pro, and found that the Benchmark both measured and sounded better. It seems that all of that "unusual circuitry" buys one (at least in this case) is an astronomical selling price! with today's semiconductor technology, one shouldn't assume that discrete circuitry is better than ICs. It was once true, for sure, but you can't assume that it still is anything other than more expensive. 

 

 I listened to the MSB diamond and platinum, extensively. They are in my opinion very impressive sounding. The key for me was impressive in that they threw out a huge soundstage and were overly detailed and etched IMO. There was no denying the "wow" factor. The exact same DAC module was seen in a Rockna DAC at much less price. I didn't like that either. The MSB Select DAC is monumentally expensive. I have not heard it.

[Jud]

22 minutes ago, Nordkapp said:

Damn. That's some time served!

 

Enjoyed it all.  

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

ICs have a huge advantage in component matching as well as thermal coupling, both very important for an R2R DAC. There is no way a discrete design will get even close to an IC in this application.

That they do!  Also modern op-amps are quieter, and the latest audio specific ones are faster than discrete circuitry due to shorter paths. They also tend to be more consistent in performance fro example to example because the end-to-end processes can be more tightly controlled.

[Solstice380]

1 hour ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

me too, 20 + ...42 ?

 

41 here.  ?  My first stereo going to college.  No more waiting until my brothers weren’t using theirs.  

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 But despite this, it does NOT mean that all 75 ohm Digital leads (Coax SPDIF) MUST sound the same, even though their bandwidth is many 100s of MHZ.

 Like you, I was a sceptic there, but got quite a surprise when I used a fairly cheap Digitec cable instead of my DIY one using a quality double screened 75 ohm cable from a damaged  Telstra Carrier system patch cord. ( (broken plug)

I wasn't asserting that they do or don't sound the same, I was making a joke about the overkill  a lot of audiophiles and audio sales people seem to find important. You know; the "if enough is good, then more must be better" mentality. I wasn't serious at all.

 

And when you tested this Digitech cable did you Double-blind test it? While I don't believe that DBTs are a panacea or anything like it, they do make false positives very difficult.

[Solstice380]

2 hours ago, 4est said:

Yeah, but I don't hear people getting down talked because they pay/buy too much for music. Audiophile-ness seems to be one of those charged topics that gets overly polarized.

 

CA is like the pub for computer audiophiles.  And we all know that things can get a little heated in barroom conversations, occasionally.   Even amongst friends.  Cheers! ?  

[Nordkapp]

8 minutes ago, Solstice380 said:

 

CA is like the pub for computer audiophiles.  And we all know that things can get a little heated in barroom conversations, occasionally.   Even amongst friends.  Cheers! ?  

Haha. Well said!

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

My real disagreement is regarding the audio community accommodating these people. It would be naive to think that a dealer would be anything other than delighted to have these customers. I don't think that means they don't equally look after their core clientele. I see it as a food chain of sorts. A long time ago I had a very good relationship with a dealer whereby I bought the second hand trade-ins of the rich folk, and at a great price. The dealer moved the second hand stock and made his profit selling new stuff. When I did buy new stuff he also looked after me with both price and service.

I think you misunderstand me. I too am sure that a dealer (or one worth his salt, anyway) equally looks after his core clientele. What I'm talking about, mostly, are manufacturers who see this market as an excuse to build higher and higher priced products. Mostly these products perform (sound) no better than much more reasonably priced offerings, but they have lots more snob appeal and people like GUTB fall for that with his "if it doesn't cost a fortune it's not high-end audio" attitude. The truth is that above a certain price point there is little to no correlation between price and sonic performance. Dan D'Agostino makes good stuff. There's no doubt of that. I'm listening to one of his Krell Integrated amps as I write this. but how much do you think His $40K integrated amp would cost if it had the same plain-jane casework as does my Krell KAV-300i? 

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, opus101 said:

 

Got a heads-up for which forum that was? I'd be interested to read that. Btw, its ESS not ADI that makes 'SabreDACs'.

I wish I remembered. I read so many of them. It might have been "Superaudiofriends" or perhaps it was Head-Fi. 

[sandyk]

16 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

I wasn't asserting that they do or don't sound the same, I was making a joke about the overkill  a lot of audiophiles and audio sales people seem to find important. You know; the "if enough is good, then more must be better" mentality. I wasn't serious at all.

 

And when you tested this Digitech cable did you Double-blind test it? While I don't believe that DBTs are a panacea or anything like it, they do make false positives very difficult. 

 Come on George, not everybody needs to use DBTs to tell whether something is better or worse sounding.

Swapping backwards and forwards a few time is usually enough !

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

 I listened to the MSB diamond and platinum, extensively. They are in my opinion very impressive sounding. The key for me was impressive in that they threw out a huge soundstage and were overly detailed and etched IMO. There was no denying the "wow" factor. The exact same DAC module was seen in a Rockna DAC at much less price. I didn't like that either. The MSB Select DAC is monumentally expensive. I have not heard it.

Oh, I agree. But I have auditioned (at great length) the MSB Diamond IV DAC with the Clock upgrade ($25,000+?) against the Schiit Yggdrasil, and everyone listening agreed that the Yggy was miles better sounding. Smoother, especially in the lower treble region and imaged much more realistically. Now the MSB had a more "etched" soundstage, that is true, but it didn't sound as natural as the Yggy. I haven't personally heard any of the newer Diamond or Platinum stuff.

[gmgraves]

2 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Come on George, not everybody needs to use DBTs to tell whether something is better or worse sounding.

Swapping backwards and forwards a few time is usually enough !

DBTs lessen the possibility of false positives, and people are easily fooled by the twin sighted biases of expectational and confirmational bias. That's my only point. Like I said, I agree that there are some things that DBTs are not needed for and some that they don't work so well for, but comparing one interconnect against another is not one of those things. It allows one to instantly compare the characteristics of one cable against another without any fear of unequal volume levels, or switching errors and such tests are usually easy to set up. All that is needed is a pair of interconnect sets. a pair of Y connectors, and an amp with two line-level inputs. If the listeners hear no differences between the two units under test at the instant that they are switched, then it means that no matter what they thought they thought they heard initially, it was their imagination. This is not worth a big brouhaha about. I wasn't making big deal out of it. so lets' not OK Alex?

[GUTB]

Disapointed in the Esoteric room today! This time they had Grandiosos on display and they were playing some tracks from an atendee's CD...played through a Grandioso disc player and into an Esoteric DAC...didn't identify if it was a Gradioso or not. It was an opera CD and BOY were the highs etched and sibilant! Not good! It sounded like good mid-fi or maybe high end consumer grade. I'll visit them again to see if they fixed the system...maybe the dome tweeters on the Cantons were breaking up?

 

[sandyk]

3 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

All that is needed is a pair of interconnect sets. a pair of Y connectors, and an amp with two line-level inputs.

That's a completely flawed concept George !

It put's 2 lots of interconnects in parallel at the output of the device, with the source device seeing double the capacitance at it's output.  

Many people ARE capable of hearing the differences between 2 cables in parallel, often  with half the load resistance, or one cable unterminated !