Article: My Quest for a New DAC - Introduction to the Series

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, rickca said:

I'm excited to see this series of articles.  @austinpop has written some excellent evaluations of SOtM components.  His contributions are always very well written and thorough.  I'm convinced he has good listening skills and I trust his advice.

 

Not just SOtM components!! But thanks for the kind words.

 

2 hours ago, rickca said:

It makes sense to pick a price range ... there are zillions of DAC's out there and no target budget is going to satisfy everyone

 

Bingo. And as I stated, this is my quest, so the only one I'm satisfying for sure is me.

 

Folks, writing reviews on CA isn't my new "job." I'll submit a review or article as and when I have something meaningful to say.

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, OldBigEars said:

@Austinpop nice introduction - should be an interesting series.  My only concern is that you may be tempted to gravitate towards the $5000 'budget' that you appear to have in mind, as if price correlates to sound quality performance.  My career in consumer products marketing (together with my audio hobby) tells me to be deeply suspicious of this assumption.  You may well find all the DAC you need or want at $1000, if you can only put cost at the back of your mind.  I would find it much more revealing if you could use your analytical  skills to determine how much SQ actually improves as you climb the price ladder from products like the RME ADI-2 and Mytek Liberty through various Schiits, Exasounds and Benchmarks.  You obviously can't test everything but I hope you can offer a range of cost perspectives.  My prediction is massively diminishing returns as you increase expenditure. 

 

Well, I'm not signing up to analyze dozens of DACs, but I do understand your point! 

 

Let's wait for the first review to come out, and see what you think. My intent is to focus on comparative impressions, to highlight the differences, and to your point, put into context what value the extra $$$ are providing. Or not.

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, Norton said:

This looks good.   I’d say your situation is reasonably close to mine so I will be interested to see what you choose.

 

My sense is that there is comparatively  little at the $3k>$5k mark that is MQA capable, either much less or much more.  Maybe timing will allow the Pro iDSd to be considered, on the assumption that it will be MQA capable?   Also interesting to see whether you conclude that a “full” MQA DAC is worthwhile or better just to stick with initial decode.  

 

Good luck with the quest.

 

Yes, I'm hoping to get a look at the Pro iDSD, since it accepts an external PSU, accepts an external 10 MHz reference clock, among other things. 

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, davide256 said:

Not surprising to see experience with vinyl duplicated with digital...source is the most important part of the chain for investment. @austinpop - one thing I am curious about is if you have any sense of priority observed in upgrading individual functions in the source chain? And yea, its hard to justify a new DAC when you know the source can do more with a next upgrade. Eager to see what you share on DAC's

 

Hi Dave,

 

Yeah, my path to where I am in my system has been rather convoluted, largely because it was a process of discovery for me, and been guided by the valuable discoveries of many others here on CA. Even now, I would hesitate to prioritize, as everything matters! There are multiple, somewhat correlated, axes of improvement, and rich sonic rewards accrue if you optimize along these multiple axes, which include:

1. AC power
2. DC power supplies
3. grounding
4. clocking
5. regeneration/signal integrity

The "A novel..." thread is the place where this has been chronicled over the past 16+ months.

 

[mrmb]

Not limited to a budget of $5k, but nevertheless one of the best DAC's posts (with over 4k replies) I've followed is this one:  https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/absolute-top-tier-dac-for-standard-res-redbook-cd?sort_order=desc

 

If anyone here hasn't seen this, it is a good read....

 

Quote

My prediction is massively diminishing returns as you increase expenditure. 

 

Unfortunately, for the most part, this quote is a theorem in this hobby as with most others, where the question of price verses performance is concerned.  I say unfortunately, because my wallet wishes it weren't so.  For most of my audiophile life, I didn't delve deeply into the very high-end cost wise.  But once I crossed a particular milestone, I realized I wasn't getting any younger.  So, I began thinking that if I didn't extend my budget then, I may never have the opportunity to.  Hence, while my overall health and more importantly my hearing acuity were as good as they would ever be, I jumped into the very high-end first with amplification and later with other components and have never regretted  it.  

 

But I do totally agree that price and results are oftentimes anything but correlative, which I suppose is one of the main reasons why we're involved with and interested in forums such as this.  

 

Lastly, Austinpop, I look forward to reading what you uncover on your quest, thanks for sharing....

[austinpop]

11 minutes ago, mrmb said:

Not limited to a budget of $5k, but nevertheless one of the best DAC's posts (with over 4k replies) I've followed is this one:  https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/absolute-top-tier-dac-for-standard-res-redbook-cd?sort_order=desc

 

If anyone here hasn't seen this, it is a good read....

 

 

Unfortunately, for the most part, this quote is a theorem in this hobby as with most others, where the question of price verses performance is concerned.  I say unfortunately, because my wallet wishes it weren't so.  For most of my audiophile life, I didn't delve deeply into the very high-end cost wise.  But once I crossed a particular milestone, I realized I wasn't getting any younger.  So, I began thinking that if I didn't extend my budget then, I may never have the opportunity to.  Hence, while my overall health and more importantly my hearing acuity were as good as they would ever be, I jumped into the very high-end first with amplification and later with other components and have never regretted  it.  

 

But I do totally agree that price and results are oftentimes anything but correlative, which I suppose is one of the main reasons why we're involved with and interested in forums such as this.  

 

Lastly, Austinpop, I look forward to reading what you uncover on your quest, thanks for sharing....

 

Thanks! And you raise a brilliant point - there comes “a certain age” where you realize that if you really want to experience the high end in audio in the time you still have your health and hearing, opening the wallet - assuming you can afford it - is warranted. And justifiable.

 

And an understanding spouse!

[rickca]

18 minutes ago, austinpop said:

there comes “a certain age”

Like a midlife crisis, only later.

[leedom]

Okay, so I'm also in the Computer Systems/Networking Industry and "bits are in fact, just bits". If you don't buy off on that, then don't have a modern Bank Account, deal with Medical Imaging, etc.  All areas where the integrity of the data matter a lot more than Audio.

 

I would be very interested to know whether your DAC is using Isochronous Mode and Asynchronous Mode + ASRC on its USB Input. If it's using Isochronous Mode, then there are any number of issues which can happen when the Source Device doesn't deliver the Audio Data at exactly the right time (jitter, dropouts, etc.).  I'd also be interested in knowing how good your DAC was in it Analog Section at insulating itself electrical (galvanic) noise.

 

In the end of the day, you're supposed to be delivering Digital Audio Data to the DAC in a timely manner for it to do it's Digital-to-Analog Conversion. If the correct Digital Audio Data isn't making it through, or being corrupted, etc. that's a pretty simple problem compared to what we're doing in High-Speed Networking these days (with Banking Records, Medical Images, etc.).

 

Casey

[austinpop]

16 minutes ago, leedom said:

Okay, so I'm also in the Computer Systems/Networking Industry and "bits are in fact, just bits". If you don't buy off on that, then don't have a modern Bank Account, deal with Medical Imaging, etc.  All areas where the integrity of the data matter a lot more than Audio.

 

I would be very interested to know whether your DAC is using Isochronous Mode and Asynchronous Mode + ASRC on its USB Input. If it's using Isochronous Mode, then there are any number of issues which can happen when the Source Device doesn't deliver the Audio Data at exactly the right time (jitter, dropouts, etc.).  I'd also be interested in knowing how good your DAC was in it Analog Section at insulating itself electrical (galvanic) noise.

 

In the end of the day, you're supposed to be delivering Digital Audio Data to the DAC in a timely manner for it to do it's Digital-to-Analog Conversion. If the correct Digital Audio Data isn't making it through, or being corrupted, etc. that's a pretty simple problem compared to what we're doing in High-Speed Networking these days (with Banking Records, Medical Images, etc.).

 

Casey

 

This topic engenders strong feelings on both sides of the issue, so I do not plan to debate this here. Suffice it to say that I, like many others, hear differences in the digital transport chain to the DAC, and I detailed my system to show my optimizations to those who are interested. Since I am an end user - not the designer or manufacturer - it is not incumbent on me, or even possible for me to explain why I hear these differences - I just do. You are of course welcome to consider all of it unnecessary, but for the topic at hand - DACs - the upstream chain is orthogonal.

 

This series is about DACs, so let's focus there.

[firedog]

austinpop-

What's your max budget MSRP for the DAC? You mentioned $5000, is that it?

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

5 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

 there comes “a certain age” where you realize that if you really want to experience the high end in audio in the time you still have your health and hearing, opening the wallet - assuming you can afford it - is warranted. And justifiable.

 

And an understanding spouse!

 

Yes Indeed.

 

6 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

 this is my quest, so the only one I'm satisfying for sure is me.

 

Yes Indeed.

 

 

[austinpop]

10 minutes ago, firedog said:

austinpop-

What's your max budget MSRP for the DAC? You mentioned $5000, is that it?

 

That's the ballpark. It's not a wall, just a target.

[austinpop]

5 hours ago, rickca said:

Like a midlife crisis, only later.

 

Yes. 

 

"Opening your wallet" can also be synonymous with "trading in the red convertible." ? 

[agladstone]

@austinpop I look forward to reading your next installment and this entire series (along with your findings). 

This introductory installment foreshadows your investigative nature, the history of your journey and upgrades and evaluation process very well. 

From following your posts and reviews of products on CA over the past couple of years, I have no doubt in your capability and qualifications to provide us CA members with unbiased and well written reviews of the DAC’s you trialed for this series! 

I am already looking forward to your next series after this one is completed  

Congratulations! 

[firedog]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

That's the ballpark. It's not a wall, just a target.

I auditioned numerous DACs about a year ago, up to about $10000 ones.

My favorite was the Playback Designs Merlot, that sells for $6500. But it does come up used occasionslly as people trade up. Might be worth auditioning

[Pete-FIN]

@austinpop , how about this one https://simaudio.com/en/product/390-network-player-preamplifier/ 

 

Its new, and aprox 5k$.

[feelingears]

@austinpop +1 more excited vote for your efforts, and a suggestion/request:

 

As you know, it's fascinating to hear about how others have found synergistic combinations. I'm supremely grateful to have lived thru a car accident around the same time I discovered @JohnSwenson and @Superdad's contributions to harnessing that which we don't "fully" understand, and I too found upstream improvements transformed my office system and then my living room system. I had the pleasure of many, many, many hours of physical therapy during which I experimented with all manner of component and cable changes and combinations to arrive at my own audio nirvana.

 

So I'm hoping your comparisons will involve your other CA friends and their impressions too because the audio biases between us are difficult to convey. Some want more soundstaging, others better timbre, still others more resolution in the attack/decay of the waveforms, and on and on and it becomes challenging fun attempting to make consistent comparisons across recordings and genres. It's useful to have these comparisons because eventually price does play a role in the decision and we want to maximize those intangible qualities.    

 

I just got the Yggy A2. It replaces the Gumby and an AGD DAC-19. Massively diminishing price returns? Well, not if you have an ear for the intangibles, and certainly not if you amortize the cost! Music is by far the most flexible and cost effective entertainment and for me, it's consistently exciting and satisfying on an emotional and intellectual level. Especially on a good sound system. I owe this in large part to people here because I've learned that yep, in audio everything matters. 

 

Thanks @The Computer Audiophile, for making this possible. We look forward to even more massively novel explorations–cheers!

 

 

[kirkmc]

16 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Nothing's wrong with my current DAC. In fact, I love it dearly, as you'll see in the subsequent review. 

 

But I'm always looking for more and trying new things. I confess I have the itch! Without the upgrade itch, CA wouldn't be nearly as active as it is.

 

I understand gear lust, but not so much with audio equipment. Since one usually doesn't buy audio gear for "features" - ie, it does this, and my current one doesn't do it (though MQA is an exception) - I don't find myself wanting to spend more money for some mythical "better sound" that I have been trained to think is inherent in a higher price. I do have gear lust for, say, cameras, where you know what is better about a different model: the features are clear and measurable. 

 

And I'm not criticizing; I just asked the question because, in your article, you didn't say that there was anything wrong with your current DAC (other than MQA), so I thought it would be interesting to know why you wanted to buy something better. 

 

I look forward to following your thinking through this series. 

[amir57bs]

I hope a company like CEC go for producing a music server with spdif output. I have paid near 20k$ for Computer audio but the sound is not as good as  CEC TLX 3.0

 

 

[rothosand]

Within a 5k$ budget, I would seriously consider a Denafrips Terminator DAC...

[exdmd]

I look forward to your review of the Brooklyn DAC+. The DAC+ pushed all the right buttons for me. I refuse to pay more than $2500 for a DAC out of general principles. It has MQA and a phono stage, as I plan to buy a turntable later this year. Vinyl is calling to me again. There will always be something more expensive to obsess over; the DAC+ works for me. I even bought the Mytek Liberty to use at work.

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, rothosand said:

Within a 5k$ budget, I would seriously consider a Denafrips Terminator DAC...

 

On my list. Heard the demo at AXPONA, very impressed.

[austinpop]

Thanks for the suggestions. There's no way I'll be able to try all of them, but it is good to know what's out there.

[gdpr]

As I fully understand you will not be able to test all proposed dacs (let alone all the dacs within budget available on the market), it would be very interesting to understand what are your criteria to select the ones you are going to test.

Will it be criteria such as free loan by the manufacturer, or are there some distinct criteria that would 'encourage' you or CA to buy a DAC for testing purposes. Should dac's be distributed in the US, via traditional dealership (as Sterophile does) or do you accept worling directly via the internet with e.g. a South-African (just to say something different than chinese) manufacturer.

Or would it be based on looks and design, on a pure personal basis?

What I am trying to say here, that the selection process is as important as the actual tests and reviews as well.

 

Looking forward to your opinions on this?

 

Dirk

[thyname]

Very interesting topic! Thanks for sharing @austinpop

 

I have a feeling for that price range you mentioned, you will go back to Ayre QX-5 Twenty. That's what I have. Yes, it's not MQA, but I was told it can be upgraded with a firmware upgrade at home, with no need to send it back to Ayre. That is if Ayre decides to integrate MQA, which is not a given.

 

Yes, I know it is a hair below $9,000 for full blown version, but maybe you can get a version with less inputs, and perhaps a "friendly" dealer willing to cut you some slack.