Respectable Integrateds

[biosailor]

How about Micromega M-one 150? Just got DAR's product of the year 2017 recommendation. Never heard it myself, but sure looks interesting!

 

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/12/dars-product-of-the-year-2017/ and

 

http://micromega.com/en/

[masch]

2 hours ago, esldude said:

One of the very best purchases I have ever made was a Tact unit that had digital and analog inputs.  Integrated power amp and full digital functions with room correction built in.  The DA conversion was actually done only at the power amp output stage.  It did everything and so well with such low distortion, transparency and functionality in one box it was a revelation.  Keeping everything digital as long as possible is THE way to good results.  

 

Lyngdorf and Tact were the same outfit at one time before having a difference of opinion.  Tact is no more.  Lyngdorf however is using mostly those same ideas.  If it fits your budget, you'll likely not find it easy to do better.  Don't listen to dynosaurs like Gutb.   Do everything digitally as far along as possible and do the conversion to analog as near the end as possible.  If you have analog sources, there are a legion of affordable very high performance AD converters in the pro audio world you can add for that functionality.  

+1 for Lyngdorf - alas, you'll need a very thick wallet for their Steinway line of products. But as mentioned before, do have a closer look/listen at their TDAI-2170.

[GUTB]

So, a couple of factors.

 

Is SQ being compromised? Going by the form factors, yes. That’s unavoidable. But is SQ being sacrificed at an acceptable level? Will the unit produce dynamic force, rich harmonic structures, good soundstage and imaging?

 

Does room correction should correct frequency response and help imaging. I’m sure it’s very nice especially if you don’t have a treated listening room. Does that make up for inferior amp performance mention above?

[semente]

I've only tried the Modwright 25kg monster (at home) and was far from impressed.

 

On the subject of all-in-ones in general, the expression "Jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind...

[marce]

3 hours ago, esldude said:

One of the very best purchases I have ever made was a Tact unit that had digital and analog inputs.  Integrated power amp and full digital functions with room correction built in.  The DA conversion was actually done only at the power amp output stage.  It did everything and so well with such low distortion, transparency and functionality in one box it was a revelation.  Keeping everything digital as long as possible is THE way to good results.  

 

Lyngdorf and Tact were the same outfit at one time before having a difference of opinion.  Tact is no more.  Lyngdorf however is using mostly those same ideas.  If it fits your budget, you'll likely not find it easy to do better.  Don't listen to dynosaurs like Gutb.   Do everything digitally as far along as possible and do the conversion to analog as near the end as possible.  If you have analog sources, there are a legion of affordable very high performance AD converters in the pro audio world you can add for that functionality.  

I would like to present an alternate view to the above last two posts. As so eloquently said in the above  quoted post; keep everything digital to the last possible moment... With today's digital you can get all the processing you need on a single board, so you control noise, EMC, signal integrity, signal paths (impedance, guarding). Data in at one end analogue drive signals for speakers out of the other end. All controlled, no cables, minimum connections, minimised interaction with external EMC. Internal compartments for the electronics (at the prices of a lot of audio gear you could do where PCB and enclosure form an intimate assembly, with the case having sections that provide isolation, also heat sinking. Investment casting with a bit of machining is a better option than machining out of a solid block. I.e. design it to the same standard as life/mission critical aerospace/military kit.) 

The more boxes you have these days the more likely airborne interference is going to have an effect, especially if your wiring is extreme, with external supplies, clocks, unshielded cables...  Same with the digital signal, my insttinc from years of trying to get signals (all types) from a to b is minimise the distance and minimise the interfaces, keep it simple, it works best.

So what could be simpler than a one box solution (though keeping mains out and having an external power supply, would provide two solutions, one keep mains noise and power supply noise isolated, filtered, and provide a means to change the SMPS for a liner supply!)...

Of course the biggest problem with acceptance of a one box solution, is it does bugger up the after sales market somewhat, so it will always be inferior.

[beerandmusic]

2 hours ago, biosailor said:

How about Micromega M-one 150? Just got DAR's product of the year 2017 recommendation. Never heard it myself, but sure looks interesting!

 

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/12/dars-product-of-the-year-2017/ and

 

http://micromega.com/en/

this does look like an interesting unit....another review here:

http://blog.son-video.com/en/2017/07/review-micromega-m-one/

[hsmeets]

Maybe another contender for on your shortlist: http://www.ta-hifi.de/en/audiosystems/e-series/r-1000-e-multi-source-receiver/

 

 

[One and a half]

23 hours ago, Madra said:

Another friend has the Accuphase E270 integrated amp with the add-on dac card. he used to run an Esoteric dac but says he prefers the dac card of the Accuphase. I haven't heard his set up so I cannot comment from personal experience. 

Accuphase's first amplifier in 1973 was an integrated amp. For the OP @beerandmusic, try a model from 2010 onwards, there are two expansion slots that allow a DAC to slot in, analog board or a phono board. The previous slot in DACs had AD1955's, the new one has AK4490. A new DAC can fit in a legacy amp no problem.

The new models are here, warning, they are not cheap, and even used retain their value significantly. You won't find a banged up model going cheap with scratches all over it, they are well looked after. Used Accuphase integrated are about, but are snapped up quickly.

Their (electrical) current delivery can drive any difficult speaker and reliability is legendary. The design life is 20 years minimum, and they still have parts from the really early models.

SQ wise they are up there with the so called best of them.

[marce]

47 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

this does look like an interesting unit....another review here:

http://blog.son-video.com/en/2017/07/review-micromega-m-one/

That gets my beloved approval... I like its modern clean look! 

[GUTB]

The problems with all-in-ones is as follows:

 

Noise. These things have several systems in one box, and each one needs different voltages. 5v, 3.3v, 12v, etc. The correct, high quality way to deal with this is to have a separate power supply and transformer for each system. To keep costs and size down, having 4-5 seperate power linear power supplies is a no-go. So the solution...crappy DC-DC conversion. Switching noise. Then there’s the noise from all the computing parts, noise from the amp circuit, vibrating toroid, heat, radio signals from the WiFi transmitter, etc and so on.

 

Space. What do all high quality linear amps have in common? Large transformers, large capacitor banks, and many output devices attached to large heatsinks. In an AiO, which has to be the size of a lifestyle product that goes on a shelf, doesn’t have the room for just the amp, let alone the pre circuits and digital systems. The solution? Compact and cut down the amp and pre circuits as much as possible. 

[beerandmusic]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

What do all "modern" high quality linear amps have in common? 

 

well engineered design architectures using latest technologies.

[beerandmusic]

7 hours ago, One and a half said:

Accuphase's first amplifier in 1973 was an integrated amp. For the OP @beerandmusic, try a model from 2010 onwards, there are two expansion slots that allow a DAC to slot in, analog board or a phono board. The previous slot in DACs had AD1955's, the new one has AK4490. A new DAC can fit in a legacy amp no problem.

The new models are here, warning, they are not cheap, and even used retain their value significantly. You won't find a banged up model going cheap with scratches all over it, they are well looked after. Used Accuphase integrated are about, but are snapped up quickly.

Their (electrical) current delivery can drive any difficult speaker and reliability is legendary. The design life is 20 years minimum, and they still have parts from the really early models.

SQ wise they are up there with the so called best of them.

 

These look very nice and are well recieved along with their high price....will keep looking waiting for something with enet and either 9038 or ak4497 dac chips with lower price point, or wait for mcintosh new da1 module with newer chipset and usb isolation circuitry.  Other nice features, but not must haves would be preamp out, phono (i know optional on accuphase), enet port...would be nice if others suggested here marketed more info on dac chips used, clocking, jitter reduction, usb isolation....research just starting, and i believe some integrated will be released in near future capturing all my checkboxes and at a lower price point.

[beerandmusic]

8 hours ago, marce said:

I would like to present an alternate view to the above last two posts. As so eloquently said in the above  quoted post; keep everything digital to the last possible moment... With today's digital you can get all the processing you need on a single board, so you control noise, EMC, signal integrity, signal paths (impedance, guarding). Data in at one end analogue drive signals for speakers out of the other end. All controlled, no cables, minimum connections, minimised interaction with external EMC. Internal compartments for the electronics (at the prices of a lot of audio gear you could do where PCB and enclosure form an intimate assembly, with the case having sections that provide isolation, also heat sinking. Investment casting with a bit of machining is a better option than machining out of a solid block. I.e. design it to the same standard as life/mission critical aerospace/military kit.) 

The more boxes you have these days the more likely airborne interference is going to have an effect, especially if your wiring is extreme, with external supplies, clocks, unshielded cables...  Same with the digital signal, my insttinc from years of trying to get signals (all types) from a to b is minimise the distance and minimise the interfaces, keep it simple, it works best.

So what could be simpler than a one box solution (though keeping mains out and having an external power supply, would provide two solutions, one keep mains noise and power supply noise isolated, filtered, and provide a means to change the SMPS for a liner supply!)...

Of course the biggest problem with acceptance of a one box solution, is it does bugger up the after sales market somewhat, so it will always be inferior.

 

I agree that a well designed integrated "could" offer more than separates in the unifomity of design, less need of interconnects, clocking, and probably other areas as well.  I also believe it will be frowned on by many, but that has never discouraged me...i have always enjoyed living on the outside of the box. 

[marce]

3 hours ago, GUTB said:

The problems with all-in-ones is as follows:

 

Noise. These things have several systems in one box, and each one needs different voltages. 5v, 3.3v, 12v, etc. The correct, high quality way to deal with this is to have a separate power supply and transformer for each system. To keep costs and size down, having 4-5 seperate power linear power supplies is a no-go. So the solution...crappy DC-DC conversion. Switching noise. Then there’s the noise from all the computing parts, noise from the amp circuit, vibrating toroid, heat, radio signals from the WiFi transmitter, etc and so on.

 

Space. What do all high quality linear amps have in common? Large transformers, large capacitor banks, and many output devices attached to large heatsinks. In an AiO, which has to be the size of a lifestyle product that goes on a shelf, doesn’t have the room for just the amp, let alone the pre circuits and digital systems. The solution? Compact and cut down the amp and pre circuits as much as possible. 

Not true,  plenty of low noise systems with multiple voltages out in the world, often very low noise.

How much room do you think digital takes today, not a lot...

Further:

Point of load supply's are the best way to go, again very common. Provide main system digital supply supply and a separate =/- analogue, the rest you do as point of load supplies. These are generally low noise LDO supplies, not everything has to be a SMPS nor is it advisable.

An example of size, a recent set of 4 boards I laid out were each 20x15mm in a stack, 4 processors, main supply from battery, 6 LDO supplies for the various sensors such as skin galvanometer, body temp, blood oxygen level, external temperature etc. etc. oh and just for fun a bluetooth transmitter (as you can guess so the patient has no dangling wires) just an example of what can be done with modern components. For digital small packaging is best, reduced parasitic's, better thermal management of the actual die etc.

If you can get a power amp in a box you can get the digital interface in quite easily, depending on the choice of final amplification gives you the final box size, but standard 430mm x 280mm approx boxes have plenty of room.

Do you read other peoples posts or do you just react to them, probably the latter, as I did state my preference was for an external main PSU

 

[gmgraves]

14 hours ago, GUTB said:

The problems with all-in-ones is as follows:

 

Noise. These things have several systems in one box, and each one needs different voltages. 5v, 3.3v, 12v, etc. The correct, high quality way to deal with this is to have a separate power supply and transformer for each system. To keep costs and size down, having 4-5 seperate power linear power supplies is a no-go. So the solution...crappy DC-DC conversion. Switching noise. Then there’s the noise from all the computing parts, noise from the amp circuit, vibrating toroid, heat, radio signals from the WiFi transmitter, etc and so on.

 

Space. What do all high quality linear amps have in common? Large transformers, large capacitor banks, and many output devices attached to large heatsinks. In an AiO, which has to be the size of a lifestyle product that goes on a shelf, doesn’t have the room for just the amp, let alone the pre circuits and digital systems. The solution? Compact and cut down the amp and pre circuits as much as possible. 

It must be nice when you can make decisions based on unfounded assumptions and incorrect suppositions about things of which you have no actual knowledge. The only problem with correctly designed all-In-ones (integrated and receivers) is that when something goes wrong with one aspect of the all-in-one, it usually affects everything, especially if it's power supply problem. With separates, if the preamp fails, the power amp will still function and vice versa. The actuality is that A well designed integrated can be every bit as good sonically as separates, and often better than some.

[firedog]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

It must be nice when you can make decisions based on unfounded assumptions and incorrect suppositions about things of which you have no actual knowledge. The only problem with correctly designed all-In-ones (integrated and receivers) is that when something goes wrong with one aspect of the all-in-one, it usually affects everything, especially if it's power supply problem. With separates, if the preamp fails, the power amp will still function and vice versa. The actuality is that A well designed integrated can be every bit as good sonically as separates, and often better than some.

Yes. And don't forget that a well done integrated has short signal paths and doesn't need all the cabling etc of separates. There are manufacturers that will tell you that one of their integrateds sounds at least as good as the equivalent separates, and for less money. 

[NOMBEDES]

AVM C8 / C9.  German quality,  CD, Phono, FM Tuner, DAC, 150 WPC at 4 Ohm.  

Compact size.   That’s what I call integrated.   There was one for sale on US Audio Mart a while back.    Nice size for office or bedroom system.

[atxkyle]

Have you considered powered speakers like the KEF LS50 wireless?  DAC, amp and speakers all-in-one.  I’m guessing you already have other speakers you want to use ... but this seems like a nice approach for someone who wants everything fully integrated. 

[#Yoda#]

45 minutes ago, NOMBEDES said:

AVM C8 / C9.  German quality,  CD, Phono, FM Tuner, DAC, 150 WPC at 4 Ohm.  

Compact size.   That’s what I call integrated.   There was one for sale on US Audio Mart a while back.    Nice size for office or bedroom system.

...and from AVM the real high end All-in-One systems Ovation CS 6.2 and 8.2 http://www.avm-audio.com/products/ovation/ovation-cs-62-cs-82.html for more than $ 10k.

 

Another option: Ayre Acoustics presumably will ship their first integrated streaming amp AX-8, soon. Maybe not quite at one level with a QX-5/AX-5 combination but at a bargain price by comparison.

Ayre_AX-8_Literature.pdf

[GUTB]

22 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

 

well engineered design architectures using latest technologies.

 

So do smartphones and TVs.

 

Please think more carefully about your comebacks. 

[GUTB]

10 hours ago, gmgraves said:

It must be nice when you can make decisions based on unfounded assumptions and incorrect suppositions about things of which you have no actual knowledge. The only problem with correctly designed all-In-ones (integrated and receivers) is that when something goes wrong with one aspect of the all-in-one, it usually affects everything, especially if it's power supply problem. With separates, if the preamp fails, the power amp will still function and vice versa. The actuality is that A well designed integrated can be every bit as good sonically as separates, and often better than some.

 

And yet you don’t bother with integrated systems. It’s common knowledge in audiophilia that separates are better than integrated (at the high end).

[firedog]

9 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

And yet you don’t bother with integrated systems. It’s common knowledge in audiophilia that separates are better than integrated (at the high end).

It’s common knowledge that common knowledge in audiophilia is often wrong.

[Kimo]

I have owned my share of integrated amplifiers.  Solid state: Bryston, Magnum Dynalab, Pass, Naim.  Tube: Leben, Rogers Audio (Hopefully my last amp), Eastern Electric, Unison Research, Fi, Art Audio.  I have also owned separates and tried one passive volume control, a Placette.  

 

In my experience, an active gain stage is optimal.  The problem is that most integrateds that include a decent sounding active gain stage will be on the pricey side.   

[ADCO]

Another fan of the Hegel 360.... it's really very good

 

While I'm not sure their was a price cap on this my GamuT Audio Di150 LE is a fantastic integrated amp and it's been my experience that it has sonically out performed a few separates I have had through here ..... that said it does not have a dac 

[beerandmusic]

3 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

And yet you don’t bother with integrated systems. It’s common knowledge in audiophilia that separates are better than integrated (at the high end).

 

Your biggest problem is your "general statements" that are just plain wrong.  There are many integrateds that will best many separates.  You could correctly say that it is possible to put together better separates that will best an integrated, and not be wrong, but you are totally wrong to say that it is common knowledge that separates are better than integrateds.  Maybe you just need English lessons.