Respectable Integrateds

[MarkS]

I am running the JOB Int in my office system with a pair of Boenicke W5SE's and Rel T-0, audience speaker cable and power cords, a microrendu with JS-2 PSU (usb input for Roon/Tidal) and a Sonos (coax input for Howard Stern) as sources and an old PS Audio P300.  The Job Int is a superb value and performs well.  You could spend more and not get comparable SQ.  Really depends on your budget.  

 

My .02 cents - If I were not space contained (i.e., a home system), I would split the integrated and have a separate dac/streamer because technology is changing very quickly in that area; whereas as good true integrated amp can last forever.

 

Good luck.

[GUTB]

14 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

Your biggest problem is your "general statements" that are just plain wrong.  There are many integrateds that will best many separates.  You could correctly say that it is possible to put together better separates that will best an integrated, and not be wrong, but you are totally wrong to say that it is common knowledge that separates are better than integrateds.  Maybe you just need English lessons.

 

Why do men become so concerned with semantics when we argue about something? Is it because our egos just can’t take being wrong, or seeming to "lose" against someone else?

 

I stated what the generally well-known consensus is. I provided technical reasons. 

 

So let’s do it this way: an Esoteric F-05 integrated is going to beat an Onkyo separate system, but an Estoteric separate system is going to beat the F-05. There are benifits to the integrated approach but the benifits of having separate chassis, boardsand power supplies outweigh them.

 

I never said integrated isn’t a valid choice. If you can’t afford an Esoteric separate, or you don’t have the room for them, etc, you may still want to go with the integrated rather than get an inferior brand’s seperate system.

[beerandmusic]

6 minutes ago, MarkS said:

I would split the integrated and have a separate dac/streamer because technology is changing very quickly in that area;

 

You could just sell your old integrated and buy a new one with new technology, once you felt the new technology is advanced where an upgrade makes sense...

 

I know a lot of people don't want to buy/sell, but i do it regularly.

[beerandmusic]

16 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Why do men become so concerned with semantics when we argue about something? Is it because our egos just can’t take being wrong, or seeming to "lose" against someone else?

 

Mainly because you say stuff that is totally inaccurate...not just semantics.  I can't believe some of the things you say you actually realize what you are saying with your "generalized statments" such as everything sucks, or that separates are better than integrateds.....it doesn't take too much common sense to realize that you don't know what the heck you are saying. 

 

There are probably very few people that would "lose' to you in any debate, and I am surprised that I even bother trying to help you.

 

I just suggest you try and watch your "blanket generalized" statements as they just show your mentality.

Clearly by now, you have seen many people on forums across the world find fault with you...when everyone is wrong and you are right, that is a good indication, that it is you, not the rest of the world.

 

 

[AmusedToD]

Recently switched from a Simaudio Moon I-7 to a Gryphon Diablo. Had a Naim Supernait in the past with a Naim HiCap DR PSU.

 

IMHO, the Naim can’t compete with the Moon or the Gryphon, but it’s also much cheaper than both.

 

Going from the Supernait to the Simaudio Moon I-7 RS (predecessor to the 700i) brought resolution, better extension at both ends of the frequency spectrum, and a general sense of refinement that the Naim wasn’t able to provide, while still retaining excellent precision and timing (albeit with less slam).

 

And now, going up to the Gryphon Diablo is like going to a Naim on steroids - super powerful, extremely fast, with tremendous authority and grip when driving even difficult low sensitivity speakers. But unlike Naim, the Gryphon gives you high resolution and a sense of refinement, with absolutely ZERO fatigue. I find this feature to be the most important for me (as I would get listener’s fatigue with both the Supernait and the Moon I-7 after just a few hours of digital playback).

 

When compared to the Moon I-7, the Diablo is a complete opposite in terms of character. It’s extremely powerful, with an unbelievable slam and total control of the speakers. But it’s also darker sounding and more relaxed, even though is can sound “raw” from time to time, depending on the material. The Moon is more open, brighter, even analytical, creates a holographic soundstage, but is pretty “anemic” in the lower registers. No cable could help in this regard. It does work well with Dynaudio and similar somewhat “darker” sounding speakers.

 

So with my TAD ME1 speakers and in my setup, the Gryphon Diablo made one hell of an impact, a much bigger difference in sound than upgrading the source. I also learnt a very important lesson there: get the speaker - amp combo right and do not spend money on other stuff (including DACs and cables) until you get proper synergy there. The amp-speaker setup is 3/4 of the sound.

[MarkS]

Gryphon Diablo is superb and best many separates of equal and higher cost.  Do you have the dac board installed or a separate dac?

[gmgraves]

4 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

And yet you don’t bother with integrated systems. It’s common knowledge in audiophilia that separates are better than integrated (at the high end).

 

It's only common knowledge to snobs who rate everything based on priced (the more expensive, the better it must be. Must'n it?) and know-it-alls who form opinions in a vacuum, without the benefit of the slightest knowledge or insight into the subject.

 

If you think that separates are better than integrated in general, why don't you tell that to Nelson Pass, the people at Perla Audio (who's $13K "Signature 50" integrated has FOUR toroidal transformers, and 264,000 µFD in the power supply), The People at NAIM, Dartzeel, and Musical Fidelity, to name a few! 

[AmusedToD]

8 minutes ago, MarkS said:

Gryphon Diablo is superb and best many separates of equal and higher cost.  Do you have the dac board installed or a separate dac?

 

I have the dCS Paganini DAC.

[beerandmusic]

1 hour ago, MarkS said:

 I would split the integrated and have a separate dac/streamer because technology is changing very quickly in that area;

besides the option of just upgrading the integrated, you can also opt for an integrated that has a dac module so you can just upgrade the module.  The new Mcintosh ma5300 does just that....I am hoping they will get a new dac module soon which has newer chipset, usb isolation, and enet port....then i will finally jump the gun!

[Ralf11]

The real problems with all-in-ones are as follows:

 

1. a little extra design may be needed to reduce noise

2. speaker cables may be long vs. sticking mono-blocks close to the speakers

3. um...

 

ah...

 

oh yeh!  I got one more

 

3. if you upgrade you might have to upgrade the whole thing

 

 

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

I stated what the generally well-known consensus is. I provided technical reasons. 

 

 

To begin with, that there exists such a consensus, is wrong. Nobody who knows what they are talking about would make such an asinine statement. Secondly, the "technical reasons" you stated are have no basis in reality as universal fact. Everything is a design decision and poor ones and good ones can be made in the realm of integrated amplifiers just as in anything else. IOW, you're wrong again.

[beerandmusic]

3 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

The real problems with all-in-ones are as follows:

 

 a little extra design may be needed to reduce noise

 

 if you upgrade you might have to upgrade the whole thing

 

 

Design can actually reduce noise as compared to separates needing usb toys, extra cables, extra interconnects, more clocks, etc...

some integrateds have modules which can be upgraded separately, besides, so what...when it makes sense, upgrade the "whole thing"...

 

 

 

[savjam]

I recommend the Bel Canto EX integrated.  It has accepts both analog - including phono - inputs, digital inputs, ethernet, USB, SPIF, Toslink and has a head phone output. There is also an amplifier bypass and sub output with built in crossover.  It can process MQA and is Roon ready.  Really well thought out product.  

 

Bel Canto has excellent customer service and an excellent history of providing upgrades to keep their older products current.

 

http://www.belcantodesign.com/home/black/ex-integrated/ex-int/

[GUTB]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

 

To begin with, that there exists such a consensus, is wrong. Nobody who knows what they are talking about would make such an asinine statement. Secondly, the "technical reasons" you stated are have no basis in reality as universal fact. Everything is a design decision and poor ones and good ones can be made in the realm of integrated amplifiers just as in anything else. IOW, you're wrong again.

 

Quick research into the topic shows the opposite.

 

"Integrated can be just as good or better than separate" is a truism, but a meaningless one. Audio gear exists in reality, not in rhetoric. In the reality of design contradictions placed on designers trying to bring gear to market, integrated is a trade-off in the favor of cost. Everyone here perfectly understands this, but some of you guys are saddled with the need for me to be wrong.

[semente]

7 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Quick research into the topic shows the opposite.

 

"Integrated can be just as good or better than separate" is a truism, but a meaningless one. Audio gear exists in reality, not in rhetoric. In the reality of design contradictions placed on designers trying to bring gear to market, integrated is a trade-off in the favor of cost. Everyone here perfectly understands this, but some of you guys are saddled with the need for me to be wrong.

 

Or perhaps you're just not knowledgeable and struggle to substantiate your opinions, which invariably lead to "expensive is better".

 

Splitting an amplifier into two boxes adds complexity and cost.

What technical advantages can you put forward, considering that it is possible to design a dual-mono integrated with outboard PSUs if necessary?

[kumakuma]

26 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Everyone here perfectly understands this, but some of you guys are saddled with the need for me to be wrong.

 

Have you ever stopped to consider why people react to you in this way?

[esldude]

27 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Quick research into the topic shows the opposite.

 

"Integrated can be just as good or better than separate" is a truism, but a meaningless one. Audio gear exists in reality, not in rhetoric. In the reality of design contradictions placed on designers trying to bring gear to market, integrated is a trade-off in the favor of cost. Everyone here perfectly understands this, but some of you guys are saddled with the need for me to be wrong.

The guy with all the answers.  Too bad they are overwhelmingly the wrong answers.  But answers he has.  Definitive, authoritative, confident, and usually wrong.  

[Ralf11]

2 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

Design can actually reduce noise as compared to separates needing usb toys, extra cables, extra interconnects, more clocks, etc...

some integrateds have modules which can be upgraded separately, besides, so what...when it makes sense, upgrade the "whole thing"...

 

 

 

 

Yes, but that is not a dis-advantage, which was the question.

 

Bel Canto good.  Maybe not $25,000 good...

[GUTB]

24 minutes ago, esldude said:

The guy with all the answers.  Too bad they are overwhelmingly the wrong answers.  But answers he has.  Definitive, authoritative, confident, and usually wrong.  

 

The Gryphon Diablo, very likely one of the best integrated amps on the planet:

 

Channel Separation: 120 dbl
Bandwidth (-3 dB): 0.1 Hz to 250 kHz
Power Supply Capacity: 2 x 60,000 µF

 

Now the Mephisto Stereo:

 

Channel Separation: INFINITE
Bandwidth (-3 dB): 0.1 Hz to 400 kHz
Power Supply Capacity: 2 x 250,000 µF

 

Since we're checking out high-end gear...

 

Boulder 865 (Integrated):

 

Channel Separation: 112 dbl
Bandwidth (-3 dB): 0.015 Hz to 95 kHz
 

Boulder 860 (Stereo):

 

Channel Separation: 112 dbl
Bandwidth (-3 dB): 0.015 Hz to 150 kHz

 

(It should be noted that Boulder doesn't offer an integrated anywhere except in their bottom tier).

[Ralf11]

The Gryphon Diablo sux - it's full of noise and has too much stuff crammed into the chassis space.

[fas42]

Full of noise?

[AudioDoctor]

Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP if all you want is pre/power in one chassis.  Absolutely stunning sound quality.

 

I also have a McIntosh MAC7200 Receiver, same as the MA7200 but with an FM module, and I love it.

 

If I were adding some to a list to check out I would add:

 

Peachtree Nova150/300

Balanced Audio Tech VK3000SE

Pass INT 60/120

McIntosh Integrateds

Rogue Audio has Tube and Hybrid integrated amps

Leben Hi Fi C300-XS

Luxman 550/590

 

On top of the things I already own.

 

None of these will get me on the Approved by GUTB Audiophile list though.

[AudioDoctor]

2 hours ago, kumakuma said:

 

Have you ever stopped to consider why people react to you in this way?

 

Asking the question, is your answer...

[Ralf11]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

Full of noise?

 

see his previous post for the source of my text

[gmgraves]

3 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

Quick research into the topic shows the opposite.

 

"Integrated can be just as good or better than separate" is a truism, but a meaningless one. Audio gear exists in reality, not in rhetoric. In the reality of design contradictions placed on designers trying to bring gear to market, integrated is a trade-off in the favor of cost. Everyone here perfectly understands this, but some of you guys are saddled with the need for me to be wrong.

 

No one is saddled with the need for you to be wrong. You do that very well for yourself. Please explain why "Integrated amps can be just as good as or better than separates" is a meaningless truism? I'm sure there are lots of high-end designers in this business who would disagree rather strenuously with you. I was at Burning Amp a number of years ago when Nelson Pass unveiled his first Integrated, the INT-150. He said that it was every bit as good as any set of separates he's ever built, and in fact the circuit for the pre-amp section was better than his then current top-of-his-line separate preamp. Luckily for you, his current integrated amps are quite expensive. The 60WPC INT-60 is US$9000, and the 250WPC INT-250 is US$12,000. That should tell you all you need to know about Pass's Integrateds. Of course if you need to spend more than that to assuage your audio nervosa, there's always the DarTZeeL CTH-8550 Integrated for US$25,500 or for even more, the Dan D'Agostino's Momentum Integrated at 200WPC. It's US$45,000! That ought to really get your juices flowing! Believe me, there's no design compromises going on with any of these Integrated amps and that fact is anything but a "meaningless truism"! 

 

Interesting that you deigned not to post your "quick research into the topic (that) shows the opposite".

 

GUTB, you must really enjoy putting your foot in your mouth, my friend!