USB audio cracked... finally!

[Ralf11]

7 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Really, the violins again?

 

This thread is like the movie Groundhog Day.  When do we all wake up and do something new and original?

 

do you refer fiddles?

[fas42]

8 hours ago, PeterSt said:

I know, this is BS when even an "analog" flavor is added, but I like to see it the other way around; the digitus flavor is removed (not as an explicit process because I wouldn't know how to do that).

Anyway, the digital sauce just *is* luring always, and somehow (ahum) with real analog this is not a problem. This (Lush) now too seems to get rid of all this "digitus" problems. This is not advertising but what I notice myself.

 

"Digitus problems" are hard to knock over - I would suggest that many people have never heard how good digital playback can be - so anything that sounds especially alluring in the SQ must be so because it has been adulterated, is their response. Luckily, they're wrong - it's removing all the 'flavours' that a less than an optimum digital playback add to the mix that produces ideal sound ... I'm afraid "pretty good" digital ain't good enough - it's got to be close to 100% bug free , for that "analogue experience" ...

[fas42]

Yep, the ol' quote trick, Yet Again ...

[manisandher]

8 hours ago, esldude said:

Well confirmation bias seems to have extended into the upper reaches of the violinist ranks.  The renowned and revered Strads in a blind test weren't so superlative all of a sudden.

 

I took this challenge:

 

 

 

Just listening back on my laptop through a regular pair of headphones, the Strad came in second to my ears, after a new half-a-million dollars violin.

 

The difference between the violins was striking and totally obvious.

 

Mani.

 

 

[Jud]

5 hours ago, esldude said:

That's cute and all.  How original. 

 

To quote Colonel Jessup:  You can't handle the truth!

 

Or more specifically the implications of that truth.

The links above by the way are for three different tests covering some 7 years.  So not a one time fluke result.

 

The taste tests that led to the formulation of New Coke were consistent as well.  I think the analogy with blind A/B audio testing might be instructive in a number of ways.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, manisandher said:

 

The difference between the violins was striking and totally obvious.

 

These were blind listening tests not controlled for the factor of loudness.

 

Consider this while thinking of the blind taste tests that led to the formulation of New Coke and see what analogies you can start to draw. 

[esldude]

33 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

These were blind listening tests not controlled for the factor of loudness.

 

Consider this while thinking of the blind taste tests that led to the formulation of New Coke and see what analogies you can start to draw. 

Yes they could not control for loudness. But one of the long running ideas about Strads were superior projection and Hall filling loudness. Some who played Strads claimed they were twice as powerful as other violins.  I seem to recall one of the violinists complaining it wasn't a fair test because the Strads were so much louder it would be obvious. Turns out that wasn't true. 

 

Now I agree this is a problem.  I have said dozens of times matching levels is job one for such testing. 

[Summit]

6 hours ago, barrows said:

That could be interpreted as evidence that blind testing is flawed.

What exactly make blind testing flawed? Blind test are not the best method for evaluate all SQ aspects, but sure is for checking biased based on reputation, manufacturer and price.

 

All people are biased somehow, some more than others. To understand that we are all living in a context and are all biased because of previous experience and expectations is critical to minimize the influence of bias (this swings both ways and also includes people that are biased against any SQ difference in cables before even testing them).  

 

Bias = Expectations

[fas42]

I consider any sort of testing of whether "A is better than B, or vice versa" a complete waste of time. The only things that matters is whether either of the two are defect free - usually, they are both flawed, and hence are no longer interesting ...

[manisandher]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

These were blind listening tests not controlled for the factor of loudness.

 

I've separated the first piece of music played on each of the violins, and here are the respective loudness levels and DRs:

 

 

The peaks for all 6 pieces are identical, so perhaps there was some sort of peak limiter applied to the recording. [Edit: not sure I trust those peak values.] But in any event, the RMS values are all pretty similar, and certainly don't seem to favour one violin over any of the others.

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

38 minutes ago, manisandher said:

I've separated the first piece of music played on each of the violins...

 

Maybe those who believe measurements are more accurate than ears can identify the Strad from the respective spectra of the violins?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mani.

[Doak]

Yes,,, I must admit that I've been "fooling myself" for all of these years.

It is true, there is no way science can explain how I can tell a Strat from an SG on the very first note played, so it cannot be real.

Mea culpa. 

(ok, i'm done .... this thread is officially dead. such a shame too, adios)

[Jud]

1 hour ago, manisandher said:

 

I've separated the first piece of music played on each of the violins, and here are the respective loudness levels and DRs:

 

 

The peaks for all 6 pieces are identical, so perhaps there was some sort of peak limiter applied to the recording. [Edit: not sure I trust those peak values.] But in any event, the RMS values are all pretty similar, and certainly don't seem to favour one violin over any of the others.

 

Mani.

 

Hi Mani -

 

Don't know about what was done with the recordings, but in the write-ups I've seen, attendees (including players) were asked to rate the instruments on the quality of "projection," while not being given a definition of what that meant.  Unsurprisingly, they rated the violins that were loudest in the room highest in that quality.  When asked which violins they preferred, the attendees preferred the instruments that were louder and had been rated highest on the quality of projection.

[manisandher]

4 minutes ago, Doak said:

(ok, i'm done .... this thread is officially dead. such a shame too, adios)

 

 

Why do you say that? I thought everyone was behaving themselves quite well...

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

19 minutes ago, Jud said:

Don't know about what was done with the recordings, but in the write-ups I've seen, attendees (including players) were asked to rate the instruments on the quality of "projection," while not being given a definition of what that means.  Unsurprisingly, they rated the violins that were loudest in the room highest in that quality.  When asked which violins they preferred, the attendees preferred the instruments that were louder and had been rated highest in the quality of projection.

 

Hey Jud, I can only go by the mp4 recording itself - I wasn't in the concert hall at the time. On the recording, the violins seem to be of similar loudness to each other (Edit: the RMS values are within 2.5dB of each other), and I don't think there were any shenanigans going on. The differences between the violins are obvious.

 

Which one you prefer though... (Edit: I certainly don't prefer the sound of the loudest!)

 

Mani.

[Doak]

11 minutes ago, manisandher said:

 

 

Why do you say that? I thought everyone was behaving themselves quite well...

 

Mani.

OK,,, dead to me then. 

I've music to listen to. 

[Jud]

3 hours ago, esldude said:

Yes they could not control for loudness. But one of the long running ideas about Strads were superior projection and Hall filling loudness. Some who played Strads claimed they were twice as powerful as other violins.  I seem to recall one of the violinists complaining it wasn't a fair test because the Strads were so much louder it would be obvious. Turns out that wasn't true. 

 

Now I agree this is a problem.  I have said dozens of times matching levels is job one for such testing. 

 

Yep, it put the kibosh to the hypothesis that preference for Strads was based on "projection" or loudness.

 

So why do Strads have the reputation they do among the finest players?  (I say again, the tale of New Coke is instructive. )

[PeterSt]

22 minutes ago, manisandher said:

 

 

Why do you say that? I thought everyone was behaving themselves quite well...

 

Mani.

 

People don't need to misbehave in order to kill a thread.

Moderation on staying on topic is desired. But the one who should do that is the first to step out of line ? (this is figurative but you'll understand)

 

I suggest politics now.

[manisandher]

1 minute ago, PeterSt said:

Moderation on staying on topic is desired.

 

OK, to bring it back...

 

If the 6 violins tested in the clip were USB cables, the Lush would be the Strad.

 

Mani.

[Johnseye]

31 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Yep, it put the kibosh to the hypothesis that preference for Strads was based on "projection" or loudness.

 

So why do Strads have the reputation they do among the finest players?  (I say again, the tale of New Coke is instructive. )

 

There's a difference between playing an instrument and listening to one.  Just as there's a difference in having an instrument next to your face as opposed to its projected sound.  Were any of the violinists in the study Strad owners?  If there were, and they couldn't tell the difference, it would be relevant to those in the listening audience, but not necessarily to the violinists as a preferred instrument.

[rickca]

How come every thread on CA eventually deteriorates into a discussion about double blind testing?  We may as well have just one thread where people can repeat 'you are delusional' endlessly.

[Johnseye]

2 minutes ago, rickca said:

How come every thread on CA eventually deteriorates into a discussion about double blind testing?  We may as well have just one thread where people can repeat 'you are delusional' endlessly.

 

It's the endless, age old nature vs nurture debate.  Easy to fall back on because we all search to understand what we don't know.  Only @PeterSt can offer the best answer to why the cable sounds the way it does.

[manisandher]

I think those who mention expectation/confirmation bias raise a valid point. But that doesn't mean that those of us who prefer the sound of the Lush over other USB cables are necessarily deluding ourselves.

 

For my part, if expectation/confirmation bias were at play in my preference for the Lush, I don't understand why my more expensive USB cables are sitting gathering dust in my basement. Furthermore, I don't understand why I prefer the sound of the Lush over the Clarixa - both exactly the same price and both from the same manufacturer.

 

Mani.

 

[barrows]

4 hours ago, Summit said:

What exactly make blind testing flawed? Blind test are not the best method for evaluate all SQ aspects, but sure is for checking biased based on reputation, manufacturer and price.

 

All people are biased somehow, some more than others. To understand that we are all living in a context and are all biased because of previous experience and expectations is critical to minimize the influence of bias (this swings both ways and also includes people that are biased against any SQ difference in cables before even testing them).  

 

Bias = Expectations

I am not going to engage in any kind of long discussion about this here, as it has been hashed over elsewhere. Succinctly; blind testing creates stressors which make critical listening difficult, the tendency is that one is testing the subject rather than the DUT when blind testing is done.  If you are interested in more information about this I suggest a Google search.

 

Listen testing is a difficult, learned skill, one of the things one learns is how to avoid expectation bias.

 

@elsdude: Yes, the first step of any listen testing is assuring levels are precisely matched, without this control one is off in the weeds.  this is easy to achieve for USB cable testing, as different cables will not/cannot alter playback level.

 

Can we get back to the LUSH?  Anyone else with some listening observations? 

[Doak]

1 hour ago, PeterSt said:

 

People don't need to misbehave in order to kill a thread.

Moderation on staying on topic is desired. But the one who should do that is the first to step out of line ? (this is figurative but you'll understand)

 

I suggest politics now.

.... and one more thing:

Thank You for the Lush cable, Peter.

Yes, I know I paid you for it but you also deserve to be paid the compliment.