The true experimental tweak thread

[sandyk]

Garry

 Are you able to give these guys some indepth information about where Earth Leakage devices should be used when playing around in an area like this with mains earth connections removed ?

 They might get away with some of this uninformed fiddling on 110V, but 240VAC is far less forgiving.

Alex

[One and a half]

47 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Garry

 Are you able to give these guys some indepth information about where Earth Leakage devices should be used when playing around in an area like this with mains earth connections removed ?

 They might get away with some of this uninformed fiddling on 110V, but 240VAC is far less forgiving.

Alex

 

Earth connections should never be removed, only for the very rare occurrence with vintage oscilloscopes, these days isolated inputs are fairly common avoiding the need for an iso transformer. A vintage oscilloscope is not required for listening to audio!

 

Earth or ground must remain intact to the equipment. If noise is coupled to earth, then find another way to shunt or bypass noise. There are many products now which isolate the signals which are susceptible to interference caused by crud using AC transmissions and interconnections.  

 

AC powered equipment is not infallible, it does break down insulation and can and does render equipment's chassis live. F$ck. Even though you might be on carpet, sure as eggs, and everything floats, there's going to be one component you don't think of, that will be grounded properly and there's a huge spark with you in the middle, dead, and fried equipment beyond repair. 

 

Lifting earths/grounds is not acceptable and illegal in many countries. Insurance companies will void any claims if equipment is found modified creating a dangerous situation. Should an incident arise, the authorities, that is, if you are still living, can impose fines for creating a hazardous situation. Not. Worth. It.

 

When using an isolation transformer, upstream protection RCD/ELCB/GFCI don't see what's on the other side of the transformer. It is a simple exercise to use a portable RCD/ELCB/GFCI on the output of an isolation transformer.

 

Any portable RCD/ELCB/GFCI can be used obtained from the local hardware or electrical shop for earthed secondary connections on the isolation transformer something like this device. Sensitivity can be anything from 3mA to 30mA depending on your country.

 

For balanced supplies, a 2 pole RCD/ELCB/GFCI is necessary. These are harder to find, but they do exist. The installation needs some qualification to comply with rules set aside in various countries for balanced supplies. 

 

[Solid-State]

a tip for those who use AC/DC power supply and are looking for improvements with different ground solutions,

Try to power your things with battery instead,
try with lifepo4,
sounds wonderful,

and no grounding problems

[Solid-State]

5 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 I have used a couple of those modules with my JLH PSUs.

You will need to remove the heatsink and use an insulating washer ( and thermal paste if a mica insulator) to mount it to a suitably sized metal surface when used at > a couple of hundred mA.

Also, it can be further improved by soldering ( carefully) a 10 to 22uF electrolytic capacitor from the LM317 Adj. terminal to earth ( 0 volts) Connect +ve of the capacitor to the Adj. terminal.

This may improve the Ripple Rejection Ratio by as much as 15dB

thanks for that tip,
will test that today

[Solid-State]

To Sandyk,

 

how would you compare
LM317 with LT1963 regulators

 

 

[sandyk]

18 minutes ago, TubeMan said:

To Sandyk,

 

how would you compare
LM317 with LT1963 regulators

 

 

 The LT1963 has a far lower output noise voltage, in the order of 40uV RMS.

I have used a power supply with this voltage regulator, but it is still markedly improved when followed by a John Linsley Hood designed PSU add-on.

[Solid-State]

is it

John Linsley Hood Ripple Eater you thinking of

[sandyk]

23 minutes ago, TubeMan said:

is it

John Linsley Hood Ripple Eater you thinking of

 

 That's what Jon, a DIY Audio member nicknamed it .

All of the updating and improving of the original design came from me.

You will find further details, including a copy of the original design on my friend Greg Erskine's site.

Greg also designed the Dual polarity JLH PCBs .

There have been further enhancements including the use of a J506 Current Regulating diode to replace the 10K resistor for improved performance at +5V and +3.3V, and even a version (as in the photo) where the Current Limiter section has been replaced with LM317T voltage regulators, in this case it has  2 separate +5V outputs for powering internal SSDs in a P.C.

The photo was taken before the heatsinks were fitted.

http://users.tpg.com.au/gerskine/greg/default.htm Click on Power Supplies.

[Solid-State]

looking good

is it possible to buy these finished by him,

[marce]

I agree with One and a half and Cornan, mains can be deadly, I therefore don't give any advice on messing about with it. Looking at the photo of the transformer it looks like X11 is hard wired to X10 with a jumper and is possibly the electrostatic screen connection, but I am not sure and data on the web is limited.

This is one area where safety is paramount, my self I would get a qualified sparky to have a look and test the installation for safety, as the blown tant shows a lot of energy can be released and its not just electric shock hazzards its also fire hazzards.

Keep safe, please.

[sandyk]

19 minutes ago, TubeMan said:

looking good

is it possible to buy these finished by him,

 

 Greg only supplied the PCBs, but there are none currently available . They are purely DIY and none were made for profit, except the small Rock Grotto version where all proceeds went to a Cancer Charity. Over 800 PCBs have ben made available world wide. For those who are able to photo etch PCBs, there is also suitable artwork on Greg's site. Both halves of the PCB can also be configured for +VE outputs instead of + and - , by using the same semiconductors on both halves and reversing the  polarity of the electrolytic capacitors on the side marked  -VE.

 

[sandyk]

4 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 Greg only supplied the PCBs, but there are none currently available . They are purely DIY and none were made for profit, except the small Rock Grotto version where all proceeds went to a Cancer Charity. Over 800 PCBs have ben made available world wide. For those who are able to photo etch PCBs, there is also suitable artwork on Greg's site. Both halves of the PCB can also be configured for +VE outputs instead of + and - , by using the same semiconductors on both halves and reversing the  polarity of the electrolytic capacitors on the side marked  -VE.

It is also possible to cut (carefully) the PCB into 2 halves for single usage.

 

[Forehaven]

12 hours ago, One and a half said:

 

Two choices A - Standard Mode 120V, B - Balanced Mode 60-0-60. GND connections should be all green/yellow cable.

If heat is a problem, balanced mode yields cooler temperatures. It's important to use 90C or higher wiring inside the transformer.

Don't disconnect the cables that come from the internals of the transformer. In the end you won't know which is which, and I'm not going to help sort out that mess.

 

A- Standard Mode connections (most likely as delivered)

 

Primary

H1 - Black (HOT)

Join H1 + H2 (No other connection!)

Join H3 + H4 (No other connection!)

H4 - White (Neutral)

Join H5 + GND

 

Secondary -

X7 - Black (HOT)

Join X7 + X8 (No other connection!)

Join X9 + X10

X10 - White (Neutral) + Join to X11 + Join to GND

 

Install an off the shelf GFCI, the portable type, on the output of the Elgar's outlet and the output of the GFCI to the equipment.

 

B- Balanced Mode

 

Primary

 

H1 - Black (HOT)

Join H2 + H3 (No other connection!)

H4 - White (Neutral)

Join H5 + GND

 

Secondary

 

X7 - Black (Hot 1)

Join X8 + X9 + GND + X11

X10 - Red (Hot 2)

 

Install a 2 pole GFCI the portable type on the output of the Elgar's outlet and the output of the GFCI to the equipment.

 

 

When measuring the Balanced connection, there should be, when this picture is used as an example, HOT to Neutral 120V, hot to Ground 60V, Neutral to Ground 60V.

 

Attached is the HIT manual.

HIT Series - High Isolation Transformers.pdf

Thanks so much One and half.  But I was unable to quiet it so this is on hold for now.  I may just have to try another trans.  

[John769]

and in other news...I'm replacing the faulty AVR 2000 with a AVR 3000, which hopefully won't explode this time!

[Speedskater]

21 hours ago, Forehaven said:

Cornan,  i’ve taken my transformer apart this morning to disconnect the secondary ground. However, the neutral became unplugged. The black wire. I’m not sure if it goes in the 10X or 11X next spot. Can you tell me which option the black wire goes back into the block?

Without hunting thru countless posts:

a] Brand and model of transformer?

b] Input voltage, 240V or 120V ?

c] Output voltage, 240V or 120V, balanced 60/60V ?

 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

A safe way of testing power transformer hookups is:

You need a DMM meter with a 20V AC scale. Go to a used stuff store and get an old 10 to 18V AC wall wart. (the wall wart and the meter scale must both be AC)

Use the wall wart as the input voltage and the output voltage will be about 10% of normal voltage.

[Cornan]

1 hour ago, John769 said:

and in other news...I'm replacing the faulty AVR 2000 with a AVR 3000, which hopefully won't explode this time!

 

Good luck with the AVR 3000! I hope it will improve things! ?

[Cornan]

An interesting thing happend last night. I decided to add a USB injection in my Ghent Y-split (plus Teradak USB power injection cable) as I used before for my ISO Regen by using a Regen Amber as a voltage regulator in my A setup. This was neccessary due to the LT3045´s inline as I am powering that connection with 7v. To my big surprice this actually decreased SQ quite a bit with a way too dark and muddier sound. This trggered my curiousity a bit, so I decided to remove it plus the LT3045´s in series as well. Removing the LT3045´s clearly increase transparency, depht and space which I like.

 

What it seems to me right now is that for every voltage regulator I add the leakge seems to go somewhere else. It is a little bit like a pin-ball mashine. If you add a voltage regulator the leakage bounce somewhere else. The same thing seems to apply with ISO Regens GI. It feels as it is a matter of bouncing the leakage in the right direction to get the most out of it.

 

Now, since my Auralic Aries Mini still do not have an external voltage regulator I will await any further conclutions until the LM317 is put into place. It is the final DC path that still do not have a voltage regulator. When that path is blocked it will tell me more about if the external voltage regulators really are a true benefit in my setup or just a matter of sound preferences in my A setup.

 

 

[sandyk]

Voltage regulators by themselves aren't the answer to a maiden's prayer.

Even the type and amount of capacitance used at the input, adjust and output with voltage regulators governs how they will sound. For example, some voltage regulators don't like very low ESR capacitors at their output.

Ultra Low noise from a voltage regulator just by itself, isn't the whole answer.

Even with a capacitance multiplier circuit, the sound signature of the original capacitor can still be heard, even though the amount of capacitance may have been multiplied 200 times ! (Some brands of electros have a typical "house" sound.)

That is why I use the JLH PSU add-on after the voltage regulator, and a combination of a normal type electro, as well as a selected Low ESR electro in parallel, in the capacitance multiplier section of the JLH.

 

 I don't give a rat's rear end what your typical E.E. will say about this either.

 

Alex

[Cornan]

13 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Voltage regulators by themselves aren't the answer to a maiden's prayer.

Even the type and amount of capacitance used at the input, adjust and output with voltage regulators governs how they will sound. For example, some voltage regulators don't like very low ESR capacitors at their output.

Ultra Low noise from a voltage regulator just by itself, isn't the whole answer.

Even with a capacitance multiplier circuit, the sound signature of the original capacitor can still be heard, even though the amount of capacitance may have been multiplied 200 times ! (Some brands of electros have a typical "house" sound.)

That is why I use the JLH PSU add-on after the voltage regulator, and a combination of a normal type electro, as well as a selected Low ESR electro in parallel, in the capacitance multiplier section of the JLH.

 

 I don't give a rat's rear end what your typical E.E. will say about this either.

 

Alex

 

Thanks for that explanation Alex!

Even though I never thought the regulators would be the answer of any maiden´s prayer, I did hope (and still hope) they would isolate the leakage between devices. I must admit that I am a bit troubled right now what is really happening? It feels a little bit like I am heading forward and backwards at the same time with external voltage regulators. It increase SQ in some regards but decreases the SQ in other regards. It makes it difficult to fully understand what is going on and what is causing those changes? Therefore my resemblance with a pin-ball mashine. It a little bit like I am putting up obstacles that just bounce the leakage/noises into other directions, ending up in other devices in the chain. In a strange way it feels like my setup have become much more sentitive to changes after the introduction of the ISO Regen. Almost like it is affecting something else in the setup negatively when the GI is activated. A "bounce-back effect" of some kind? Anyway, these are just my personal speculations of what is happening. No science involved. Just using my ears and trying to understand the forces involved.

 

I already have the JLH under my radar. It is definately an interesting design that not everyone seems to agree upon. But that have never ever stopped me from trying, so I am still considering it!   However, before I do I want to figure out my next step. I will await the LM317 so I can see how it turns out with voltage regulators in all of my DC paths. 

[mozes]

@Cornan you know somtimes less is more!

voltage regulators seems to be a bit too adventurous, but I salute your efforts to make the best of it. Once you have too many variables, it becomes hard to identify what is going on and what really improves SQ. It happened to me many times, and I end up going back to basics, but then I can’t help it but complicate it again  

[Cornan]

2 hours ago, mozes said:

@Cornan you know somtimes less is more!

voltage regulators seems to be a bit too adventurous, but I salute your efforts to make the best of it. Once you have too many variables, it becomes hard to identify what is going on and what really improves SQ. It happened to me many times, and I end up going back to basics, but then I can’t help it but complicate it again  

 

I know Moussa! ? I am all for less, but to optimize things you need to make it overly complicated to understand what really matters. I use the voltage regulators as isolation for the DC path. Not intirely sure yet if they will work as intended, but as soon as I have got the last voltage regulator for the Aries Mini I'll give it another go. Hopefully that does it. Touch wood! ?

 

I have actually plans in a couple of weeks to rip out everything in my A setup and start all over just to find out what really matters. There is just too many things that have happened along the way, so I'll need to get a little perspective. I also want to try different AC mains power routes.

[tapatrick]

10 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

Thanks for that explanation Alex!

Even though I never thought the regulators would be the answer of any maiden´s prayer, I did hope (and still hope) they would isolate the leakage between devices. I must admit that I am a bit troubled right now what is really happening? It feels a little bit like I am heading forward and backwards at the same time with external voltage regulators. It increase SQ in some regards but decreases the SQ in other regards. It makes it difficult to fully understand what is going on and what is causing those changes? Therefore my resemblance with a pin-ball mashine. It a little bit like I am putting up obstacles that just bounce the leakage/noises into other directions, ending up in other devices in the chain. In a strange way it feels like my setup have become much more sentitive to changes after the introduction of the ISO Regen. Almost like it is affecting something else in the setup negatively when the GI is activated. A "bounce-back effect" of some kind? Anyway, these are just my personal speculations of what is happening. No science involved. Just using my ears and trying to understand the forces involved.

 

I feel for you 'bro   Hope you get to the bottom of it soon and get back to the enjoyment.. I have no doubt the regs are working fabulously in my system..

 

I was just following John S's input on the 'A novel way to massively improve the SQ.." thread and quickly grounded the neg of the power input to my Aqvox switch as he recommended; "the grounding on the negative of the supply feeding the switch shunts the high impedance leakage coming from the network" . Worked for me with a good result possibly might help you...

 

[Cornan]

38 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

I feel for you 'bro   Hope you get to the bottom of it soon and get back to the enjoyment.. I have no doubt the regs are working fabulously in my system..

 

I was just following John S's input on the 'A novel way to massively improve the SQ.." thread and quickly grounded the neg of the power input to my Aqvox switch as he recommended; "the grounding on the negative of the supply feeding the switch shunts the high impedance leakage coming from the network" . Worked for me with a good result possibly might help you...

 

 

Thanks Patrick! ? I will try them again when my final voltage regulator arrives. 

 

You can see a lot of posts regarding the DC- grounding earlier on this thread. I have grounded the DC- on ALL my floating Gopherts in both of my setups to grounding boxes (sounds much better than connected to safety ground receptacle) with great results. I am also waiting for capacitors (1M ohm and 470k ohm among others) to try to shunt some of the low frequency noise as well (which still is passed through the DC- grounding). Not intirely sure that will work though, but some experiments will tell. Just the way I like it! ? I will post about this as soon as I've tried it.

 

Here is how I've done it in my A setup.

 

 

 

[BigGuy]

27 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

Thanks Patrick! ? I will try them again when my final voltage regulator arrives. 

 

You can see a lot of posts regarding the DC- grounding earlier on this thread. I have grounded the DC- on ALL my floating Gopherts in both of my setups to grounding boxes (sounds much better than connected to safety ground receptacle) with great results. I am also waiting for capacitors (1M ohm and 470k ohm among others) to try to shunt some of the low frequency noise as well (which still is passed through the DC- grounding). Not intirely sure that will work though, but some experiments will tell. Just the way I like it! ? I will post about this as soon as I've tried it.

 

Here is how I've done it in my A setup.

 

 

 

Would like to more about "grounding boxes".

 

I too saw the reference to capacitors as you indicate but, here again, would like to know how to hook them up.  Does the rated voltage of the caps matter?

[lmitche]

4 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

I know Moussa! ? I am all for less, but to optimize things you need to make it overly complicated to understand what really matters. I use the voltage regulators as isolation for the DC path. Not intirely sure yet if they will work as intended, but as soon as I have got the last voltage regulator for the Aries Mini I'll give it another go. Hopefully that does it. Touch wood! ?

 

I have actually plans in a couple of weeks to rip out everything in my A setup and start all over just to find out what really matters. There is just too many things that have happened along the way, so I'll need to get a little perspective. I also want to try different AC mains power routes.

When I read about your experiences, I grow concerned that you are just moving the leakage current around.  I expect you would be well served with some good linear power supplies instead of the gophers. That should let you simplify things.