A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[hurka]

ok romaz,once again

why need rubidium master clock(noisy)with this full owerpriced sotm clock???

where the pictures this 1000dollars clock uses xo,ocxo,

how CAN I CONNECTED 4 output with others short cables ... 

[mozes]

42 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Just a shout out to @mozes who I know is also running USB direct from Nimitra > tX > Brooklyn DAC, using a combo of JS-2 and VR Mini supplies.

I have to say that I am very very happy with my Nimitra, not a single issue so far, I leave it on 24/7 and I play everything up to DSD256 without any issues at all. Right now it is singing with a VR Mini but the real game changer to me was when the tX between the Nimitra and the Brooklyn and that is only one clock

[ElviaCaprice]

3 minutes ago, hurka said:

ok romaz,once again

why need rubidium master clock(noisy)with this full owerpriced sotm clock???

where the pictures this 1000dollars clock uses xo,ocxo,

how CAN I CONNECTED 4 output with others short cables ... 

Why the rudeness?  Nobody has to answer any of your questions.  Go to the SoTM website and look at the sclk EX clocking board yourself.  Nobody here is using the master clock option.  The sclk EX is a clocking board, no XO or OCXO.  The Sclk Ex clocking board can have up to 4 separate clocks on it, cable up to 45cm are provided to run to your replaced clocks.

[rickca]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

SOtM are in the process of acquiring a loaner Codex from their distributor in Korea to see if they can troubleshoot the problem in-house. I should know more in a few days how that is going. 

 

Yes, I am very satisfied with their level of commitment in resolving this issue.

That certainly sounds like excellent service.

[romaz]

1 hour ago, hurka said:

ok romaz,once again

why need rubidium master clock(noisy)with this full owerpriced sotm clock???

where the pictures this 1000dollars clock uses xo,ocxo,

how CAN I CONNECTED 4 output with others short cables ... 

 

Who said you need a rubidium master clock?  SOtM isn't saying this.  They provide an external 10MHz master clock option for the sake of flexibility for those who desire it.  I certainly am not looking to do this.

 

As for pictures, look on SOtM's website.  I have posted my own pictures here on this thread.

 

Regarding cabling, you can do this yourself if you wish.  You will want to use U.FL connectors.  Cable length should be as short as possible.  Again, look on SOtM's website for details.

[Quadman]

I have no idea how you (Roy) find the time to research all the options you discussed thru this thread, listen to music, install various toys, Work and spend time with your family.  I and this community are very grateful to your thought provoking insights to streaming/payback of digital audio.  Hats off as well to everyone who has contributed to this endeavor.

 

Due to the layout of our house and location of router, top floor, and location of listening room bottom floor without cutting into the walls and running cable which I don't want to do since we are just renters in this house.  I am committed to the USB pathway from my windows 10 pro server to my T+A Dac 8DSD.  Currently I use a pretty direct connection, PC-AQ Jitterbug- WW silver starlight USB-Uptone Regen (powered by a very low noise linear PSU)- custom made 6" silver USB cable-T+A Dac.  My mother board is a gigabyte Z170x gaming 3 with dac-up USB ports and I currently turn the 5V line to this port off in Bios.  My CPU is a i7-6700K and I have fallen hard for DSD512 up sampling ever since I got my Gustard X20 to successfully stream 512 by adding a 3rd party USB card and tapping into the I2S lines in the PCIe slot, vacated by the stock USB card.  I also added a much better OCXO clock (with external linear PSU) next to the dac chips which proved to be eye opening.  So any PC choice I make centers around DSDS512 capability.

 

I managed to get in on the first wave of Iso-regen orders so I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of that.  In the mean time I have done 3 of the steps discussed in this thread with great success.  First I moved my 2 sticks of DDR4 ram into one channel closet to the CPU that made a subtle but very nice improvement and I have noted no negative effect with HQP up sampling with various filters with this move.  Then I got several of the sata data cables that Larry mentions in this thread a 6" from a sata port to my OS SSD and a 10" from a sata port to my 3TB 7200 RPM Hdd music storage drive, another nice improvement.  Then I got my hands on a used SLC nand flash SSD mentioned by Roy, that change was simply stunning I could not believe the very positive change that made to the sound.  So much so that I will not try the HDD OS/music drive method discussed by Larry.  I put that change in line with going from DSD256 to 512, getting a new, much better amp etc.  The sound stage became larger, wider and higher, more separation and space between performers.  Leading edges had better define and attack the sound is very analog like and on good digital source I put it up with some of the best analog I have heard.  I have zero issue with 6 hour listening sessions the music is so involving, engaging and fatigue free.  Dynamics are what I call excellent, I don't totally understand the softening of sound that is frequently mentioned with regard to DSD playback.

 

I still have a few low cost plans to improve the sound further.  1) get the PCIe to sata card Roy mentions so I can tap into a more direct path to the CPU.  I will have to remove the 1060 GPU card I have, which may well further improve the sound as the RF noise should be lower.  2) replace my very good seasonic platinum PSU with a titanium version 3) play with clock speeds of my CPU, down clocking from the 4.5Ghz I am at now to slower speeds and reduce Vcore as well 4) install the iso-regen.  I will be very interested in Larry's report of the effects of the iso-regen with his Adnaco card and if the iso-regen adds much improvement or if the iso-regen fed from a stock USB port on his MB can hang by itself with the Adnaco/iso-regen combo.  Depending on that result I will either jump into the adnaco method and replace the clocks myself and possibly switch to linear regulators over the switching.  The other path should that not prove out is to look into a PCIe to USB card with 3 contenders in that arena Paul Pang, Jcat and Sotm.

 

I also have a friend who is seriously thinking of getting into the 512 game and if so he wants me to build him a server.  I am very intrigued by the new AMD Ryzen cpu's with much larger cache memory and more cores than intel for the same $.  Block diagrams see to show more ports and lanes with direct connection to the CPU another possible advantage which makes me think this could be a better solution than intel.  Then there is Roy's report above of a new SoC board he discovered and those fascinate me but their inability to up sample to 512 does seem to rule them out.  Then there is the SQ improvement he reported on by using the SR7 to power it, and the huge improvement it had over the ATX supply.  So possibly with enough time I can find one that can use a laptop CPU with a 35w or so TDP that can be powered from a 19V or 12v linear supply. That should have the horses to do 512 with at least the 2s filters in HQP.  Miska has reported a i5-7600t is capable of the 2s filters at 512 resolution with about 50% cpu usage.

 

I can say this; the improvement I have gotten from digital sources in the past 2 years and the $ that I spent to do so are way less than the $ one needs to spend to get equal improvement in the analog chain.  I own a SME 30 Mk2 TT and my digital, even connected the way it is now with a good digital source is every bit as involving as my TT.  I am committed to the digital chain and it convenience.

 

I am also very grateful to all who have contributed and opened my eyes and thought process to think outside the box, we are just scratching the surface of PC digital playback.  Push on.

[limniscate]

I want to hear @romaz's report on the server side as well.  If that's as big as a jump with the other clocks, could I just get the latest SotM server with the sClk-Ex and forgo the dX-USB Ultra/tX-USB Ultra and sMS-200 Ultra, or would I have to get all of the devices?

 

I'm also probably going to try the cables and LAN filter as you suggested @romaz

[hasticus]

2 hours ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Why the rudeness?  Nobody has to answer any of your questions.  Go to the SoTM website and look at the sclk EX clocking board yourself.  Nobody here is using the master clock option.  The sclk EX is a clocking board, no XO or OCXO.  The Sclk Ex clocking board can have up to 4 separate clocks on it, cable up to 45cm are provided to run to your replaced clocks.

but it has an option for external master clock input. people ( in russian audio forum) say that having  motherboard clocks+usb card clock synchronized from one source improves sound. I have this sotm with 4 clock outputs and plan to connect it to my audio pc, but don't have masterclock unit unfortunately. so if somebody know place to find not bad and not expensive one, I wouldbe happy try.=)

 

[seeteeyou]

Itching to ask, what if we go for COM Express with N3710 instead?

 

https://www.picmg.org/spec-product-category/com-express-carrier-boards/

http://www.dfitech.com/boards/computer-on-module-3/com-express-carrier-boards/

 

The pricing should be really reasonable as well, not an advertisement by any means but almost all vendors seemed to prefer quotations instead of listing each price tag directly

 

http://www.neutronusa.com/prod.cfm/2616005
http://www.dfi.com/Upload/Product/Documents/DFI-BW968-COM-Express-Compact-Datasheet.pdf

 

http://www.neutronusa.com/prod.cfm/2616044

http://estore.dfi.com/index.php/com332-b-1001.html
http://www.dfi.com/products/product.html?productId=10043

 

http://www.neutronusa.com/prod.cfm/2616042

http://www.dfi.com/products/product.html?productId=1822

 

https://shop.iesy.com/produkt/come-cbw6-n3710.html

http://www.kontron.com/products/boards-and-standard-form-factors/com-express/com-express-compact/come-cbw6.html

http://www.kontron.com/downloads/datasheet/datasheet_comexpress_evalboards-starterkits_web.pdf

 

Is it a good idea to find out how much would "custom making" actually cost for a certain number of carrier boards from DFI? Maybe it's kinda nice to upgrade the clocks for a carrier board and then we could swap an existing COM with something else.

[Quadman]

Way back in early March there was discussion of damping (vibration) inside a dac, PC etc.  I can concur that damping can have a pretty positive effect.  Just try damping your dac chips, big FGPA chips, capacitors, clocks etc.  I have found some pretty big positive changes in sound with damping.  The material of choice which was not mentioned earlier is EAR SD40AL Michael Percy audio sells it.  Stay far away from the soft pliable damping material such as blu-tac and mortite.  The EAR has an adhesive back and can easily be removed tho some caution must be observed as the aluminum side, should it fall off and come in contact with active circuity can cause problems (I have not encountered this at all but..).  This material was especially effective in the Gustard and I have also noted improvements in the T+A.

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, romaz said:

In the same way that Rajiv described the soundstage collapsing when he replaced his sMS-200 Ultra with the mR, I'm sure he meant it as a relative description since those of us who own an mR know that its sound stage does not sound small.  

 

 

Yes, exactly. This is the peril of comparative descriptions. The fact that the worse case configuration was still pretty damn amazing tends to get lost too easily!

 

[guerph]

Well...

I've decided to stick with my sMS-200 rather than upgrade to the sMS-200ultra. I have however ordered the tx-USBultra, which will slot in between the sMS-200 and by 2Qute. I'm skeptical of any sonic improvements, but that's what I said when I bought the sMS-200 and was blown away. I'm intrigued by the option of using one of the USB outputs on the tx-USBultra to feed my 2Qute (while using my main speaker setup) and the other to feed my Mojo (while using my headphone setup) without having to mess around with cabling. I am currently running the 2Qute and the sMS-200 on a two module PS-1 from Wyred 4 Sound. I will add a third module to power the tx-USBultra. The PS-1 allows me to power up to four devices, using the regular power modules, up to 1.2A each. Will report back with my findings.

[Cornan]

6 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Over on @Cornan's Experimental Tweaks thread, we've discussed this in the context of a simple goal:

• Make Tidal Great Again! Just kidding. Make the same track played back through Tidal sound as good as the same track played back locally.

I can tell you that as of now this is not true for me at all. Local files sound significantly better than streamed from Tidal. It also is where I plan to focus my experimental energy next. 

 

*LOL* Funny, but I want to make things perfectly clear. Since roughly a year ago I have completely stopped comparing local files with Tidal. Why? I couldn't see the point anymore. Playing local files vs Tidal means different approaches. Different things matters for the final result. I honestly think they cannot be compared apples to apples since things you improve for cloud content might be useless or even bad for local content and vise versa. Surely you can at some point end up with a system which is impossible to tell them apart, but I expect that one of the next tweaks could possibly shift the balance one way or the other. Perfect balance depends on luck. Just think about it for a moment. Think about the music bits. Think of their origin. Think of their paths. Think of the power consumption. Think of the noise. Now try to improve one without effecting the other. Mission impossible if you want it to be equal. 

However, if you plan your system for one or the other you just might get there! ?

 

Remember, improving local files is easier than improving Tidal.

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

*LOL* Funny, but I want to make things perfectly clear. Since roughly a year ago I have completely stopped comparing local files with Tidal. Why? I couldn't see the point anymore. Playing local files vs Tidal means different approaches. Different things matters for the final result. I honestly think they cannot be compared apples to apples since things you improve for cloud content might be useless or even bad for local content and vise versa. Surely you can at some point end up with a system which is impossible to tell them apart, but I expect that one of the next tweaks could possibly shift the balance one way or the other. Perfect balance depends on luck. Just think about it for a moment. Think about the music bits. Think of their origin. Think of their paths. Think of the power consumption. Think of the noise. Now try to improve one without effecting the other. Mission impossible if you want it to be equal. 

However, if you plan your system for one or the other you just might get there! ?

 

Remember, improving local files is easier than improving Tidal.

 

I'm not sure it's an either-or. My goal is to eat my cake (local files) and have it too (Tidal). Dream big! Go west, young man!

 

Hmm, well, not sure what that means. Too much Talisker.

[mozes]

45 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

I'm not sure it's an either-or. My goal is to eat my cake (local files) and have it too (Tidal). Dream big! Go west, young man!

 

Hmm, well, not sure what that means. Too much Talisker.

I am eating my cake now yummy

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, mozes said:

I am eating my cake now yummy

 

Ah - but are you having it too?

 

[mozes]

8 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Ah - but are you having it too?

 

Oh yes big time

[Johnseye]

As info.  After updating my sms-200 to 3.7, upsampling to the HQPlayer NAA results in issues as I get frequent pops/clicks.  This does not happen with the mR as the endpoint with either 2.3 or 2.5.  Upsampling to the sms-200 via Roon has no issues.

 

I have been playing around with HQPlayer for the past few weeks since building a new 2016 Server.  With the sms-200 on 3.6 there was no issue, but I only tried that combo for a day, or really a couple hours before the update was released.  I started to prefer the mR with HQPlayer.  The sms-200 wasn't even an option after the update.  Tonight I decided to abandon upsampling with HQP and do it with Roon and the sms-200.  I've also been away for the past week which gave my ears and brain a reset.  The results are obvious and stunning.  The sms-200 reminds me what I had been chasing.  Clarity, spaciousness, dimensionality.

 

I updated the mR to 2.5 today.  The latency issues I had been experiencing are now gone.  Whether this was an issue or not, it's fixed.  It's still a good piece and it does serve a purpose if I want to smooth out the sound, or veil it ever so slightly.  It's also the only way I can upsample with HQP right now.  However, I'm certain the stock sms-200 fits my system's signature, bringing out more detail and that wow factor.

 

Hopefully the next OS release for the sms-200 resolves the issues myself and others are experiencing.

 

I posted a picture of the SMBs the other day and at the time I wasn't aware that those were the interfaces the sCLK-EX in the TX-USBultra uses to replace the stock clocks on modded devices.  These SMBs replace the previous black wires that came out the back of the tX-USBultra.

[HeeBroG]

14 hours ago, guerph said:

Well...

I've decided to stick with my sMS-200 rather than upgrade to the sMS-200ultra. I have however ordered the tx-USBultra, which will slot in between the sMS-200 and by 2Qute. I'm skeptical of any sonic improvements, but that's what I said when I bought the sMS-200 and was blown away. I'm intrigued by the option of using one of the USB outputs on the tx-USBultra to feed my 2Qute (while using my main speaker setup) and the other to feed my Mojo (while using my headphone setup) without having to mess around with cabling. I am currently running the 2Qute and the sMS-200 on a two module PS-1 from Wyred 4 Sound. I will add a third module to power the tx-USBultra. The PS-1 allows me to power up to four devices, using the regular power modules, up to 1.2A each. Will report back with my findings.

Why not use the 3 redundant clocks included in the tX-USBultra and upgrade your sMS-200 to Ultra level. Sure it won't be as neat as the new unit but better than nothing and much cheaper. 

[miguelito]

Sorry for the cross-post, but I thought you might find this interesting:

 

I have a mini connected to a Netgear switch (GS116) and have tried ping times with two configs: mR connected to the router or mR connected to the mini's ethernet port - with the mini connected to the router via a Thunderbolt-Ethernet bridge, and bridging the ethernet connection to it's internal port.

 

Results of ping from mini:

 

mR connected to switch:

40 packets transmitted, 40 packets received, 0.0% packet loss

round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 0.302/0.454/0.533/0.051 ms

 

mR connected to mini directly:

49 packets transmitted, 49 packets received, 0.0% packet loss

round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 0.288/0.365/0.422/0.025 ms

 

This is all with v2.5.

[tapatrick]

On 6 May 2017 at 9:22 PM, tapatrick said:

 

 

Austinpop

interesting to hear your problems as I'm having similar issue with irregular stops in playback. Sometimes this is maddening and other times it's only a few times a day.  

 

I have different set up from you but wondering if there are similarities causing the issue. I have an Antipodes DXe >data only USB out> To Wavio USB to Spdif converter board with the 5v supplied by LPS-1>Aqua La Voce DAC. Sound is stunning as Wavio has great isolation, clock and high quality components. 

 

I have been trying to pin down where the problem lies which is not easy. Initially thought it was a network or Tidal issue but now seems to lie either with corrupt Antipodes software or Roon core glitch. Currently having my music server diagnosed. 

 Hi Rajiv @austinpop

Quick update on the music stoppages. I got my Antipodes back and the problem is solved, it was corrupt software which has been reinstalled by Martin at Vortexbox UK. Hope you are having success with your issue.

 

Cheers Patrick

[AmusedToD]

Hi everyone,

 

I have the sms-200 which is powered by the Sbooster BOTW P&P Eco 12v, and the combo works great. In my chain after the sms-200 I have an Ifi nano iUsb3.0 which further lowers the noise floor and improves the signal coming out of the sms-200. After reading the glowing reviews of the tX-USBultra, I decided to bite the bullet and order one. 

 

Since this is a blind buy, is there a consensus regarding the SQ improvement with the tX-USBultra over the basic sms-200? It's really an expensive device, I just hope it's 3 times better than the (almost) 3 times cheaper ISO regen.

 

And finally, since Uptone is (boldly) claiming  their new $35 USPSB adapter is better than any USB cable, if I decide to buy one should I put it between the SMS-200 and the tX-USBultra, or between the tX-USBultra and my DAC?

[rickca]

2 hours ago, HeeBroG said:

Why not use the 3 redundant clocks included in the tX-USBultra and upgrade your sMS-200 to Ultra level. Sure it won't be as neat as the new unit but better than nothing and much cheaper. 

I'm confused by the SOtM nomenclature.  It says the tX-USBultra comes with a sCLK-EX12 board.  That board is listed under the heading of 'single clock frequency for interface system' on the sCLK-EX webpage.  So does the sCLK-EX12 board have 4 clocks or just one?

 

One other question.  Using the sCLK-EX and transplanting some of the clocks from say, a tX-USBultra to a switch or SMS-200, you have wires interconnecting various devices sharing the sCLK-EX.  Don't these wires somewhat degrade the clock compared to each device having its own clock board?

 

I'd appreciate a response from @romaz, @austinpop, @mozes or anyone else who has experience with this approach.

[limniscate]

30 minutes ago, rickca said:

I'm confused by the SOtM nomenclature.  It says the tX-USBultra comes with a sCLK-EX12 board.  That board is listed under the heading of 'single clock frequency for interface system' on the sCLK-EX webpage.  So does the sCLK-EX12 board have 4 clocks or just one?

 

One other question.  Using the sCLK-EX and transplanting some of the clocks from say, a tX-USBultra to a switch or SMS-200, you have wires interconnecting various devices sharing the sCLK-EX.  Don't these wires somewhat degrade the clock compared to each device having its own clock board?

 

I'd appreciate a response from @romaz, @austinpop, @mozes or anyone else who has experience with this approach.

The clock has four taps. @austinpop sent them his sMS-200 and a switch to hardwire to the tX-USB Ultra, but apparently, they have a cleaner method now, as shown earlier in this thread, where they put connectors on the outside of the chassis so one can disconnect the cables.

[mozes]

12 minutes ago, limniscate said:

The clock has four taps. @austinpop sent them his sMS-200 and a switch to hardwire to the tX-USB Ultra, but apparently, they have a cleaner method now, as shown earlier in this thread, where they put connectors on the outside of the chassis so one can disconnect the cables.

Exactly and it looks like this