A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[lmitche]

22 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Let's just wait and see what it sounds like comparatively, when Mozes adds the USPCB upstream of the ISO Regen, TXultra removed.

Makes sense!

[tims]

12 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

ISO-Regen meets Ultra Trifecta - First Impressions

 

With about 70 hours under the ISO-Regen's belt, I decided it was safe to try a first listen. This time, Eric and I met at my place using my headphone setup (see sig) as the reference.

 

We will do another round in a couple weeks when the ISO-Regen should have at least 200 hours of burn-in.

 

Note: 

• All components were powered by LPS-1 PSUs.
• The sCLK-EX modded Zyxel switch (aka Z-switch) and modded sMS-200 were powered by a single LPS-1 using a Ghent Y-cable.
• Galvanic isolation was ON (switch set to position I) on the ISO-Regen in all cases except experiment 5 below.

Key Questions and Associated Experiments

1. Compare mR+ISO-Regen vs Ultra Trifecta - Does adding the ISO-Regen to the mR close the gap relative the SOtM Ultra trifecta?
   • Baseline:          Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > tX-USBultra (Ultra Trifecta)
   • Comparison:     mR > ISO-Regen
   • Result: 
     • Sorry folks, this is still no contest. The Ultra trifecta has significantly better SQ. It will be interesting to see how much further the Ultrarendu closes the gap. As I have maintained, the secret sauce in the trifecta has to be the modded switch. Once more such reclocking switches come along, there should be many more viable alternatives. But for now, the Trifecta rules.
        
2. Replace tX-USBultra with ISO-Regen
   • Baseline:          Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > tX-USBultra
   • Comparison:     Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen
   • Result: 
     • Very close. WOW. Very, very close! We are so impressed with the ISO-Regen. 
     • Ultimately, we differed slightly in our overall preference.
       • Eric felt the ISO-Regen sounded better by a hair
       • Rajiv felt the tX was ahead by a nose
     • Minor differences aside, it points to the fact that the ISO-R is an insane value for the money.
        
3. Add ISO-Regen before tX in the trifecta
   • Baseline:            Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen
   • Comparison:       Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra
   • Result: 
     • The best sounding configuration of the day.
     • Again, we differed slightly in our overall preference.
       • Eric felt he could not hear the incremental improvement the tX added over the baseline
       • Rajiv felt the tX added a noticeable increase in SQ - notably low end heft and a tad more resolution
          
4. Add ISO-Regen after tX in the trifecta
   • Baseline:           Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra
   • Comparison:      Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > tX-USBultra > ISO-Regen
   • Result: 
     • Not as good as before the tX
     • This sounded flatter, smaller, and a bit lacking in resolution and texture
        
5. Which sounds better - GI ON or OFF
   • Baseline:           Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen (GI ON) > tX-USBultra
   • Comparison:      Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen (GI OFF) > tX-USBultra
   • Result: 
     • This wasn't as cut and dried as I expected
     • Over several tracks, we concluded the GI setting of ON (default) sounded better, but the difference was small
     • On at least one track (Nightingale by Norah Jones on DSD), we felt the GI OFF sounded a tad more natural
   • Editorial: @Superdad - I already ragged you about the labels for the GI DIP switch in the ISO-R thread. Enough said.
      
6. Finally, we retried a couple of Ethernet experiments. 
   What is the SQ effect of iSO-Cat 6 Isolator
   • Baseline:           generic 6a > Z-switch > Supra 6a > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra
   • Comparison:      generic 6a > iSO-Cat6 > BJC 6a > Z-switch > Supra 6a > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra
   • Result: 
     • No impact. Nada. Zip. Zero.
     • We continue to hear no effect from these isolators - first on Eric's system, now mine.
     • Others do. Odd.
        
7. What is the SQ effect of dCBL-Cat7 cable
   • Baseline:           generic 6a > iSO-Cat6 > BJC 6a > Z-switch > Supra 6a > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra
   • Comparison:      generic 6a > iSO-Cat6 > BJC 6a > Z-switch > dCBL-7 > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra
   • Result: 
     • Definite improvement
     • Consistent with SQ improvement we heard on Eric's system
     • But magnitude of SQ improvement is not large enough for me to justify the cost of the cable ($500)
     • Might be worth picking up used.

Overall Musings

• The ISO-Regen is a gem. Why am I not surprised! My order for one has already been placed.
• The Trifecta with ISO-Regen (Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra) is true endgame material. At some level I agree with @hols - the ISO-R adds color. But for me, it corrects the slightly thin SOtM house sound with the more mellow and rich Uptone house sound. The end result is magical. But expensive. No doubt. There's no free lunch.
• In decreasing order of performance, taking price into consideration:
  • $3190:    Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > ISO-Regen > tX-USBultra + 3 x LPS-1s
  • $2540     Z-switch > sMS-200 mod > tX-USBultra + 2 x LPS-1s
  • $2940     Z-switch > sMS-200ultra > ISO-Regen + 3 x LPS-1s
    • you can get by sharing an LPS-1 between the Z-switch and the ISO-R, but as has been pointed out, this defeats GI.
• Bottom line: The Ultra trifecta is still - for me - a  real sweet spot in terms of value for money. If you can swing a bit more, the Trifecta+ISO-Regen is just sublime. After that, you can slice and dice into subsets as your budget requires.

Thanks for the shootout - very informative and I like the format; easy to understand.

 

Maybe it's already been done and I've missed it but is it somehow possible to do a straight comparison between the ISO-Regen and the tX-USBultra without the switch, sMS-200 mod etc?

Thanks.

[mozes]

7 minutes ago, tims said:

Thanks for the shootout - very informative and I like the format; easy to understand.

 

Maybe it's already been done and I've missed it but is it possible to to a straight comparison between the ISO-Regen and the tX-USBultra without the switch, sMS-200 mod etc?

Thanks.

I did this and I preferred the tX by a small margin with one USPCB before the IR

[mozes]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Thanks, that's good to know.  I may have to find a way to audition one. Are you sharing the LPS-1 with the ISO REGEN?

 

Larry

No the Iso Regen has its own dedicated LPS-1. If you are ok with 5 to 10% drop in performance then sharing is not a problem.

[Cornan]

Hearing is believing! I do not think there is only one way to reach audio Nirvana. There is many ways, and this perticular one is certainly not more or less than others. I am all pro to the fact that you'll feel it when you've got it right, independent of setup. You'll know when you've reach that spot. It is like you've finally come come kind of feeling to it all.

[austinpop]

11 hours ago, Dev said:

 

Thanks for the great report. Much appreciated. Keep'em coming.

 

Is the Z-switch mod same as the D-Link switch mod as listed in sotm ?

 

https://sotm-usa.com/collections/ultra-series-mods/products/sms-200ultra-audio-network-player-mods?variant=41281316812

 

You're welcome.

 

Since I got this done in the early days, right after Roy, my Z-switch is a one-off Zyxel GS108b v3 that SOtM modded for me. This was before they started offering their own modded switch. Search back for my posts - I explained more.

[austinpop]

11 hours ago, AmusedToD said:

 

@austinpop, thank you for the comparison.

 

When you say "the Ultra trifecta", you mean a modded switch (taking the clock from the tx) + regular sms200 (taking the clock from the tx) + the tx Ultra?

 

Precisely.

 

11 hours ago, AmusedToD said:

I would say you can go even cheaper than that and have similar results, just by using a sms200Ultra and a modded switch (taking the clock from the sms200ultra). You lose one LPS-1 here as well. 

 

Not sure I understand your point? I have been clear in my reporting that I found both the switch and the tX to improve SQ. As I said in my last post:

 

12 hours ago, austinpop said:

After that, you can slice and dice into subsets as your budget requires.

 

So yes, you can go cheaper with just the sMS-200ultra and modded switch, but to these ears, the incremental additional cost of getting the trifecta results in even better SQ.

[austinpop]

10 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

Main question for me remains the SU-1. Looking forward to seeing how @Bamber gets on with his modded SU-1 as part of this chain.

 

Yes indeed. There are two exciting areas of empirical research still pending and of great interest to us all:

1. @Bamber's work on the downstream end of the chain - the modded SU-1
2. @romaz's work further upstream, with the sCLK-EX mods to the SOtM tX-USBexp USB card and whatever other alchemy he is cooking up in his mobo!  

@ElviaCaprice and @lmitche: are you guys dabbling with the sCLK in your direct USB setups? Couldn't remember.

[AmusedToD]

13 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Precisely.

 

 

Not sure I understand your point? I have been clear in my reporting that I found both the switch and the tX to improve SQ. As I said in my last post:

 

 

So yes, you can go cheaper with just the sMS-200ultra and modded switch, but to these ears, the incremental additional cost of getting the trifecta results in even better SQ.

 

I think you misunderstood me.

 

You say the best bang for the buck is the modded switch (+ linear PSU) + sms200 (+ linear PSU) + tx Ultra (+ linear PSU). Both the switch and the sms200 are using the clock taps from the tx Ultra.

 

I say it's cheaper and most likely nearly as effective using the modded switch (+ linear PSU) + sms200Ultra (+ linear PSU). In this configuration the switch would use the clock tap from the sms200Ultra, but you would lose one linear PSU and one expensive USB cable.

[austinpop]

10 hours ago, lmitche said:

Rajiv, there is if course the direct model with a single machine, local drives, and some combo of ISO Regen / txUSBUltra.

 

My dac chain is sounding splendid with one lps-1, no switch, and the ISO Regen with two USPCBs.

 

5 hours ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Yes, Larry, I have confirmed what you found out.  I think this configuration gives the biggest bang for the buck.  So good in fact, I have no further desire to explore the SoTM Ultra components/clocking.  

I will complacently observe others findings at a distance, please continue.  Good work guys!

 

 

4 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

 

And here we come full circle.  A simple solution without a chain of clocks, master clock, endpoints, or FMCs.  One high quality re-clocking device as direct as possible from the server to the DAC.  I was also surprised to hear Roy going back to a similar solution.  This is refreshing to say the least, and it just makes the most logical sense.

 

Thanks to everyone who has put their time, effort and money into buying and experimenting with these devices.

 

38 minutes ago, tims said:

Thanks for the shootout - very informative and I like the format; easy to understand.

 

Maybe it's already been done and I've missed it but is it somehow possible to do a straight comparison between the ISO-Regen and the tX-USBultra without the switch, sMS-200 mod etc?

Thanks.

 

Folks, I have always made it clear I have nothing against the direct USB approach, it's just not something I have ever dabbled in. Ultimately, let's remember that the whole point of this exercise is the pursuit of maximum listening pleasure. I have always felt a certain rightness to the endpoint architecture, which is why I pursued it. I've never felt it was the only, or even the best way to achieve the highest SQ.

 

Also, for those citing lower costs as a potential reason to try the direct USB route, please recall that Roy's rationale for switching from endpoints was based on his expectation of achieving further SQ improvements in:

• replacing the stock USB outputs of his server with the SOtM tX-USBexp card
• modding this card with sCLK-EX
• modding his DFI motherboard
• And in addition, his careful build of the system using:
  • SR7 power supplies
  • Pachanko cables etc.

So you have to pay the piper, no matter what you do.

 

I was thinking of what it would take for me to try a direct USB experiment. The only computers I have at my disposal are:

1. a stock Dell XPS 8700 desktop that runs my Roon Core, and the network bridge
2. Macbook Pro laptop

I have no LPSes to power these.

 

Even if I moved one of these close enough to my DAC to use a USB cable, would there even be value to trying this experiment:

• Dell desktop or MBP (vanilla) > ISO-Regen (LPS-1) > tX-USBultra (LPS-1)?

[lmitche]

4 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Yes indeed. There are two exciting areas of empirical research still pending and of great interest to us all:

1. @Bamber's work on the downstream end of the chain - the modded SU-1
2. @romaz's work further upstream, with the sCLK-EX mods to the SOtM tX-USBexp USB card and whatever other alchemy he is cooking up in his mobo!  

@ElviaCaprice and @lmitche: are you guys dabbling with the sCLK in your direct USB setups? Couldn't remember.

Hi Rajiv,

 

This is great work.  Also many thanks for taking the time to write-up the details.

 

No I am not dealing with replacement clocks for the moment, or maybe ever.  Just trying to squeeze out the last drops of SQ using clean power, isolation and storage units with the recent innovations from our friends at Uptone Audio and Intel.  I had a big long USB audio chain at one point, but now I am of the mind that less is more, less clocks, less powered devices so less power supplies, and less, or zero cables.

 

The stock clocks in our devices suffer from poor power, and when that is cleaned up magic happens.  I also continue to be surprised at the impact of storage solutions on SQ.  What I am hearing now is jaw dropping!

 

Will it ever end!

[Johnseye]

1 minute ago, austinpop said:

 

 

 

 

Folks, I have always made it clear I have nothing against the direct USB approach, it's just not something I have ever dabbled in. Ultimately, let's remember that the whole point of this exercise is the pursuit of maximum listening pleasure. I have always felt a certain rightness to the endpoint architecture, which is why I pursued it. I've never felt it was the only, or even the best way to achieve the highest SQ.

 

Also, for those citing lower costs as a potential reason to try the direct USB route, please recall that Roy's rationale for switching from endpoints was based on his expectation of achieving further SQ improvements in:

• replacing the stock USB outputs of his server with the SOtM tX-USBexp card
• modding this card with sCLK-EX
• modding his DFI motherboard
• And in addition, his careful build of the system using:
  • SR7 power supplies
  • Pachanko cables etc.

So you have to pay the piper, no matter what you do.

 

I was thinking of what it would take for me to try a direct USB experiment. The only computers I have at my disposal are:

1. a stock Dell XPS 8700 desktop that runs my Roon Core, and the network bridge
2. Macbook Pro laptop

I have no LPSes to power these.

 

Even if I moved one of these close enough to my DAC to use a USB cable, would there even be value to trying this experiment:

• Dell desktop or MBP (vanilla) > ISO-Regen (LPS-1) > tX-USBultra (LPS-1)?

 

In another couple weeks I'll have my SR7 powering my server as well as another device (IR or endpoint).  I'll have an sMS-200, although not the Ultra, and possibly an mR if I don't sell it first.  I will also have an ISO Regen with a couple USPCBs.   An LPS-1 will power an unmodded switch between the NAS and server.  Running endpoint vs direct USB comparison tests with these devices will be my end game and while someone may beat me to it, I'll share my subjective listening experiences, conducted as blindly as possible.

[austinpop]

7 minutes ago, AmusedToD said:

 

I think you misunderstood me.

 

You say the best bang for the buck is the modded switch (+ linear PSU) + sms200 (+ linear PSU) + tx Ultra (+ linear PSU). Both the switch and the sms200 are using the clock taps from the tx Ultra.

 

I say it's cheaper and most likely nearly as effective using the modded switch (+ linear PSU) + sms200Ultra (+ linear PSU). In this configuration the switch would use the clock tap from the sms200Ultra, but you would lose one linear PSU and one expensive USB cable.

 

But then you are losing the one extra reclocking that the tX-USBultra provides. This is an SQ bump you are foregoing.

 

Is your assertion of "nearly as effective" based on your own observations? 

 

Mine are based on having heard these two configs side by side, as I have reported here several times already.

[austinpop]

10 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Will it ever end!

 

Of course not!  

[austinpop]

11 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

In another couple weeks I'll have my SR7 powering my server as well as another device (IR or endpoint).  I'll have an sMS-200, although not the Ultra, and possibly an mR if I don't sell it first.  I will also have an ISO Regen with a couple USPCBs.   An LPS-1 will power an unmodded switch between the NAS and server.  Running endpoint vs direct USB comparison tests with these devices will be my end game and while someone may beat me to it, I'll share my subjective listening experiences, conducted as blindly as possible.

 

Please do share. We'll look forward to it.

[limniscate]

I'm strongly considering returning the dX-USB Ultra, both iSO-CAT6 and two of the dCBL-CAT7.  Then I would just mod my Singxer SU-1 to accept DC and maybe send it to SOtM to mod for the sCLK.  I'd also get the Uptone ISO Regen.

 

However, I'm wondering if the Paul Hynes SR-7 will elevate the dX-USB Ultra past the SU-1 and whether the external master clock option could elevate the dX-USB as well.

 

I would recommend the ISO Regen over the tX-USB Ultra for bang-for-the-buck.

[mozes]

24 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Hi Rajiv,

 

This is great work.  Also many thanks for taking the time to write-up the details.

 

No I am not dealing with replacement clocks for the moment, or maybe ever.  Just trying to squeeze out the last drops of SQ using clean power, isolation and storage units with the recent innovations from our friends at Uptone Audio and Intel.  I had a big long USB audio chain at one point, but now I am of the mind that less is more, less clocks, less powered devices so less power supplies, and less, or zero cables.

 

The stock clocks in our devices suffer from poor power, and when that is cleaned up magic happens.  I also continue to be surprised at the impact of storage solutions on SQ.  What I am hearing now is jaw dropping!

 

Will it ever end!

It won't

[limniscate]

Just to add some additional info to @austinpop's post about our last test.

 

Experiment 1 was performed blind for me.  I didn't know what Rajiv was changing.

 

He also forgot to add that our very first experiment was his full chain with the ISO Regen and then without, which was also conducted blind for me.  I preferred it with the chain by quite a bit.

[mozes]

4 minutes ago, limniscate said:

I would recommend the ISO Regen over the tX-USB Ultra for bang-for-the-buck.

I agree 100%

[limniscate]

What bothers me the most about our tests so far is that I can't seem to hear the improvement with the tX-USB Ultra that I heard in our first two tests (before I got my SOtM stack).

 

This lack of consistency is troubling.

[Dev]

58 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

You're welcome.

 

Since I got this done in the early days, right after Roy, my Z-switch is a one-off Zyxel GS108b v3 that SOtM modded for me. This was before they started offering their own modded switch. Search back for my posts - I explained more.

 

Rajiv (I gather that's your name from other posts :-). Sorry I haven't been on this site for months now), thanks for your response and the time you are taking to do these experiments. They are truly appreciate. It opened up quiet some possibility on my end and I am considering replacing the mR with the sms-200Ultra w/ the Dlink switch mod to start with. Maybe add a ISO-R at a later point. 

[Dev]

40 minutes ago, lmitche said:

No I am not dealing with replacement clocks for the moment, or maybe ever.  Just trying to squeeze out the last drops of SQ using clean power, isolation and storage units with the recent innovations from our friends at Uptone Audio and Intel.  I had a big long USB audio chain at one point, but now I am of the mind that less is more, less clocks, less powered devices so less power supplies, and less, or zero cables.

 

The stock clocks in our devices suffer from poor power, and when that is cleaned up magic happens.  I also continue to be surprised at the impact of storage solutions on SQ.  What I am hearing now is jaw dropping!

 

 

I can't agree more on stressing the importance on clean power. Much of the stock devices can improve a lot by feeding them with good and stable power, without which they may be under-performing.

 

Can you elaborate on the recent innovation from Intel ? What are you referring to in terms of SQ improvements on the storage solution ? Something along the lines of M.2, SSD, Sata devices ?

[lmitche]

11 minutes ago, Dev said:

Can you elaborate on the recent innovation from Intel ? What are you referring to in terms of SQ improvements on the storage solution ? Something along the lines of M.2, SSD, Sata devices ?

Here you go:

 

 

[Dev]

6 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Here you go:

 

 

 

Cool. Thanks.

[Johnseye]

On 4/11/2017 at 0:40 AM, Johnseye said:

 

Yes this explains what we're all chasing in our playback chains. Thank you @JohnSwenson

 

One interesting piece of information makes me question whether Intel's new Optane will help with reducing memory access noise. 

 

"A major part in this memory access noise is what is called cache performance. Every processor includes a “cache memory”, this is memory in the processor which operates in sort of a shadow mode. Once the processor accesses a particular memory location, it stores that data in the cache, so the next time it tries to get that location, it doesn’t have to access main memory. There is only a fairly small amount of cache memory available, so an access does not always get the value from cache, this is called a cache miss. Cache is used for both instructions and data.

A program can influence the cache performance in many ways. One of the easiest to understand is just plain size of code. If the main loop of a program is small enough to fit entirely in cache, the program doesn’t have to do any main memory accesses for its instructions."

 

17 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

I can't agree more on stressing the importance on clean power. Much of the stock devices can improve a lot by feeding them with good and stable power, without which they may be under-performing.

 

Can you elaborate on the recent innovation from Intel ? What are you referring to in terms of SQ improvements on the storage solution ? Something along the lines of M.2, SSD, Sata devices ?

 

5 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Here you go:

 

 

 

Additionally, in this post I quoted something from this thread I posted back in April about Optane and it possibly reducing memory access noise.