A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[AmusedToD]

9 minutes ago, Narcissus said:

Could you please share on what quotes you received from SOTM for the switch mod (PM would be fine)?

 

I'm very curious to know exactly what parts are swapped or additionally added.

 

@austinpop would be the right man to address your query "if the switch would work without the MC...." (I think he's already mentioned it someplace in this thread)

 

This is what May wrote to me:

 

- Enabling sCLK-EX clock output : USD50/an output

- Installation cost by SMB connector: US$70/ a tap

- Cost for switch : Depends on which model you would buy.

- Switch modification :

1. adding or replacing caps on the switch normally requires at least US$20

2. switching power regulators normally requires US$50/ a point

[dgarretson]

This thread has been really helpful.  So far I'm happy with mR in combination with upsampling by the Roon DSP engine on a QNAP TVS-882 i5 NAS.  The mR is powered by a Hynes SR7 with two stages of down-regulation.   A second rail of four on my SR-7 supplies a Stanford Research Perfection 10mHz rubidium clock that synchronizes an Esoteric K-01X and a Tascam DA-3000 recorder used for ripping vinyl to DSD128. I'm in progress with SOtM to place an order of (1) sMS-200Uttra, (2) tX-USBultra, (3) sPS-500, and (4) modified EN switch with clock link to (1).  1 & 2 will be fitted with 75ohm BNC master clock inputs to match the 75ohm outputs of the SRS master clock.  I'll compare the sPS-500 to the SR7 in this application.

 

Once you invest in toys like a master clock and an SR7, the applications keep expanding...   

 

Cheers,

 

Dave  

[AmusedToD]

Apparently many forum members here also have the Singxer SU-1 (as I do). The Singxer uses the same Crystek clocks as the Iso Regen. It also has a BNC WCLK word clock output (no clue what this is for).

 

Could anyone enlighten me what this clock output is used for, and is it possible to use it with a switch (if a BNC clock input was installed)? 

[seeteeyou]

If the clocks inside your DAC suck so bad while it's still equipped with word clock input, then you could connect that world clock input to SU-1's word clock output.

 

Usually word clock should be good for the multiples of 22.5792MHz and 24.576MHz but a switch would require 25MHz as shown below

 

In other words, a switch won't be able to take advantage of SU-1's word clock output since the frequencies are different.

[austinpop]

10 hours ago, mozes said:

Thanks for sharing @austinpop I think your trifecta is very hard to beat. If it sounds better then no need to waste resources on optimization upstream the Iso Regen with no guarantee that It will sound better than an end point.

I have never tried any end point in my system and while I am very content with my usb setup, I am not 100% sure that it sounds better than an ethernet route with an end point like SMS 200 Ultra. It is a choice that we make and I made it, but I keep an eye on what's going on as well. 

To me USB is preferred for simplicity as I hate network related issues.

 

Exactly - keep an eye on developments, keep an open mind, but no need to needlessly change tack without a good reason. Enjoy your rig - I'm sure it sounds amazing!

[AmusedToD]

1 hour ago, seeteeyou said:

If the clocks inside your DAC suck so bad while it's still equipped with word clock input, then you could connect that world clock input to SU-1's word clock output.

 

Usually word clock should be good for the multiples of 22.5792MHz and 24.576MHz but a switch would require 25MHz as shown below

 

In other words, a switch won't be able to take advantage of SU-1's word clock output since the frequencies are different.

 

Thanks, got it!

 

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, lmitche said:

Rajiv,

 

In what mode do you run the sms-200, is it as a Roon endpoint, DLNA renderer or NAA? Are you doing any upsampling in Roon? Where is the music stored and how is that storage connected to the W10 server? What is the configuration of your server MB, CPU, ram, etc...?

 

Simple upgrades to your server could create another set of SQ enhancements.  Also, I'd rather see you test the "direct connect" alternative from this server vs. a MBP.  We just don't know enough about MBP sound, at least I don't.

 

Hi Larry,

 

I hope you understood the point I was making. I was not doing this exercise to switch gears and pursue direct USB! I was just doing a spot check to see what the SQ differences were between my endpoint-based trifecta, and a convenient direct USB attach alternative. I believe some had asked about that.

 

I explicitly made the point that this was by no means optimal. The W10 server is a desktop in the next room, on another AC circuit, that would have been disruptive to lug over to my setup. The MBP was more convenient.

 

Of course I agree that "Simple upgrades to your server could create another set of SQ enhancements." But I am already well down the path of the endpoint based approach, and very happy doing so. Let's leave it at that.

 

In an ideal world, if some set of us were local, we could do a comparison like Eric and I have done with our gear, where we could compare a highly optimized direct-USB setup with a highly optimized endpoint setup.

 

Until then, I regard Roy's findings as the gold standard, since he has the will, the passion, and most importantly, the resources to optimize both paths and compare. I know of no one else who is doing that. 

 

[austinpop]

9 hours ago, pam1975 said:

@austinpop what do you think the modded Z-switch brings into the chain? I've read your findings that it clearly sounds better with it than without it and that the gains in your set-up are substantial, but what is your hypothesis as to why it increases SQ? yet another reclocking in the chain, is that it?

 

I feel like this keeps getting asked and answered. Please just go back and read @romaz's, @limniscate's and my reports.

 

I don't have a hypothesis. None of us do. At best, it's a conjecture that the reclocking improves signal integrity.

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, lmitche said:

Simple upgrades to your server could create another set of SQ enhancements.

 

Larry,

 

Just realized that I may have misread your intent here.

 

When you said the above, were you referring to the endpoint-based approach, or the direct-USB approach?

[austinpop]

5 hours ago, AmusedToD said:

I just didn't get it, can the switch work without the master clock in the Tx board or not?

 

Again, needs to be a FAQ, the number of times this gets asked.

 

No it cannot. The switch is modified to get its clocking from the sCLK-EX board, in whichever Ultra chassis you're using in the chain - the sMS-200ultra, the tX-USBultra, or the dX-USB HD Ultra.

 

The switch no longer works standalone.

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, AmusedToD said:

 

This is what May wrote to me:

 

- Enabling sCLK-EX clock output : USD50/an output

- Installation cost by SMB connector: US$70/ a tap

- Cost for switch : Depends on which model you would buy.

- Switch modification :

1. adding or replacing caps on the switch normally requires at least US$20

2. switching power regulators normally requires US$50/ a point

 

Yup exactly. In my Zyxel switch, they modded:

• enabled sCLK-EX input $50
• replaced 2 regulators for linear $100
• replaced 1 capacitor $20

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Larry,

 

Just realized that I may have misread your intent here.

 

When you said the above, were you referring to the endpoint-based approach, or the direct-USB approach?

The endpoint based approach.  That's why I wanted to know what your backend looks like.  If you don't want to share the details that's OK.

[austinpop]

7 minutes ago, lmitche said:

The endpoint based approach.  That's why I wanted to know what your backend looks like.  If you don't want to share the details that's OK.

 

Ah OK. Thanks for clarifying. I'm happy to share, and will take any and all suggestions under advisement!

 

So, to answer your questions. 

• sMS-200 runs as Roon endpoint.
• No upsampling in Roon. I've tried Roon and HQPlayer upsampling extensively - posted about this in other threads - and for my DAC, native sample rates sound best to these ears. So for me, it's native all the way.
• Music is on NAS, mounted on server as SMB share. I have experimented with music on a local drive, both on the system drive SSD, and on an internal SATA 1TB HDD. Made no difference, and I really prefer to keep my content on NAS, from which I have - some would say overly baroque - triple redundancy backup redundancy schemes!
• W10 server: 12GB RAM, 256GB Samsung EVO SSD system disk, 1TB internal SATA HDD. By MB, assuming you mean motherboard? Nothing special - just a stock Dell XPS 8700. Processor is i7-4770 I believe. Since I do no upsampling, it barely breaks a sweat.
• Using Audiophile Optimizer (AO) 2.2beta5, as well as Process Lasso, in Bitsum Perfect mode.
• Bridging network adapters are internal PCIe connected to router, USB 3.0 adapter connected to sMS. Both employ the Realtek chipset.

[AmusedToD]

@austinpop, would you share the details regarding your DAC, amp and speakers? You don't have to, of course. But it would be good to know how resolving your system is. Just to try and make a reference as to whether lower end systems can benefit from all those reclocking points upstream. I believe @romaz has a Chord Dave which he uses to drive his highly sensitive speakers directly, therefore I guess any change upstream can be clearly heard and differentiated through his system (even though Mr. Rob Watts thinks his DAC is immune to USB sources)  

[austinpop]

33 minutes ago, AmusedToD said:

@austinpop, would you share the details regarding your DAC, amp and speakers? You don't have to, of course. But it would be good to know how resolving your system is. Just to try and make a reference as to whether lower end systems can benefit from all those reclocking points upstream. I believe @romaz has a Chord Dave which he uses to drive his highly sensitive speakers directly, therefore I guess any change upstream can be clearly heard and differentiated through his system (even though Mr. Rob Watts thinks his DAC is immune to USB sources)  

 

All in my sig!

 

see below. Not visible on mobile browsers.

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

Ah OK. Thanks for clarifying. I'm happy to share, and will take any and all suggestions under advisement!

 

So, to answer your questions. 

• sMS-200 runs as Roon endpoint.
• No upsampling in Roon. I've tried Roon and HQPlayer upsampling extensively - posted about this in other threads - and for my DAC, native sample rates sound best to these ears. So for me, it's native all the way.
• Music is on NAS, mounted on server as SMB share. I have experimented with music on a local drive, both on the system drive SSD, and on an internal SATA 1TB HDD. Made no difference, and I really prefer to keep my content on NAS, from which I have - some would say overly baroque - triple redundancy backup redundancy schemes!
• W10 server: 12GB RAM, 256GB Samsung EVO SSD system disk, 1TB internal SATA HDD. By MB, assuming you mean motherboard? Nothing special - just a stock Dell XPS 8700. Processor is i7-4770 I believe. Since I do no upsampling, it barely breaks a sweat.
• Using Audiophile Optimizer (AO) 2.2beta5, as well as Process Lasso, in Bitsum Perfect mode.
• Bridging network adapters are internal PCIe connected to router, USB 3.0 adapter connected to sMS. Both employ the Realtek chipset.

Hi Rajiv,

 

Got it, 3 computers make the chain, plus whatever dedicated processors are in the NIC cards, SATA controllers etc.  When I had my SMS-100 and Qnap NAS my system was very similar. You have two more computers that could be further optimized for music playback.

 

Is the Dell machine a single purpose, music playing machine?  If it has an NVME slot, an Optane stick may be able to replace the SSD and you could pull the HDD entirely.  You also only need two 4 GBs sticks of ram in the two slots closest to the CPU.  I would think a second SOTM switch between the server and NAS would also add benefits.  Also consider a second USB 3 NIC for the bridge and turn off the internal ethernet port as well as SATA controller. There will also be a bunch of PCIE bus lanes you can turn off in Windows devmgmt. You could also upgrade the power supply to one of the new titanium ultra low ripple ATX SMPSes.

 

On my QNAP NAS there was a noisy DOM usb chip used for the QNAP OS.  In the end, I pulled the DOM and since it was an atom machine configured it to boot Linux and run SMB that way.  The NAS only used HDDs. Lastly I had the two NAS nics bridged here as well.  In my case I had three EMOsystems HD EITs one between each machine and the router along with BJC Cat 6A. And the NAS was powered by a very high quality Sigma 11 based LPS.

 

I hope this post gives you some ideas for improvement.

 

All the best,

 

Larry

[AmusedToD]

24 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

All in my sig!

 

see below. Not visible on mobile browsers.

Thanks, I was using my phone so didn't see it.

 

Great system indeed! I am not much of a headphone guy, although I tried. I was thinking of getting the Ayre Codex myself, but went for an R2R DAC instead.

 

Anyways, regarding the main topic, I decided to put the upgrades on hold for now and wait for things to clear up a bit. I am especially curious as to whether modding the clock at the very source (Intel NUC for example) would bring even more improvements than the switch (if the NUC is connected directly to the sms200Ultra, bypassing the switch).

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Hi Rajiv,

 

Got it, 3 computers make the chain

 

I guess so, depending how you're counting! If you mean NAS, Dell desktop, and the sMS-200, then yes.

 

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Is the Dell machine a single purpose, music playing machine?  If it has an NVME slot, an Optane stick may be able to replace the SSD and you could pull the HDD entirely.  You also only need two 4 GBs sticks of ram in the two slots closest to the CPU.  Also consider a second USB 3 NIC for the bridge and turn off the internal ethernet port as well as SATA controller. There will also be a bunch of PCIE bus lanes you can turn off in Windows devmgmt. You could also upgrade the power supply to one of the new titanium ultra low ripple ATX SMPSes.

 

OK, I'll look into these.

 

Quote

I would think a second SOTM switch between the server and NAS would also add benefits.  

 

You do realize there is no such thing as an SOtM switch, right? The reclocking switch I'm using was modded to use a free sCLK-EX tap from my tX-USBultra. Now that I've used all 4 taps. I would need to buy another Ultra component and then use a free tap on a modded switch.

 

This is where I think I'm just going to wait for the dust to settle with Roy's experiments. I am happy to piggyback on his results!

 

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

On my QNAP NAS there was a noisy DOM usb chip used for the QNAP OS.  In the end, I pulled the DOM and since it was an atom machine configured it to boot Linux and run SMB that way.  The NAS only used HDDs. Lastly I had the two NAS nics bridged here as well.  In my case I had three EMOsystems HD EITs one between each machine and the router along with BJC Cat 6A. And the NAS was powered by a very high quality Sigma 11 based LPS.

 

Actually, my NAS is a Synology 916+ 4-bay. As you may recall, I beat my head on bridging the 2 NICs before giving up.  

 

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

I hope this post gives you some ideas for improvement.

 

Thanks for the suggestions!

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, lmitche said:

That's why I wanted to know what your backend looks like.

 

Uh oh.  Larry wants to look at Rajiv's back end.  What sort of site is this becoming?

(But I'll show you mine if you show me yours...)  

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, AmusedToD said:

Great system indeed! I am not much of a headphone guy, although I tried.

 

I would love to have a standalone listening room with speakers, but I live with a house full of women (wife and daughters) who get bothered when I play music at "realistic levels." I do have a home theater with speakers, but find I'm always turning the volume way down, except when we all watch movies together.

 

I switched to headphones when my girls were little, and have not looked back since. The best modern headphones (and I count the Sennheiser HD800S in that group, even though there are many pricier 'phones) still cannot give you the sense of physical volume and space that a speaker based setup can, but in terms of resolution and coherence, they rival and IMO, exceed most speakers except perhaps the very rarefied high end. This is just my opinion, so please let's not go down the headphone/speakers rat hole. There are some fine threads here on CA where you're welcome to join the discussion. These invariably end up on my ignore list once the discussion devolves.

 

1 hour ago, AmusedToD said:

I was thinking of getting the Ayre Codex myself, but went for an R2R DAC instead.

 

So many good DACs out there. My library is about 25% DSD, so that played a factor in my choice. I cannot praise the Codex highly enough.

 

1 hour ago, AmusedToD said:

Anyways, regarding the main topic, I decided to put the upgrades on hold for now and wait for things to clear up a bit. I am especially curious as to whether modding the clock at the very source (Intel NUC for example) would bring even more improvements than the switch (if the NUC is connected directly to the sms200Ultra, bypassing the switch).

 

Yes, this is where Roy's results with give us much to chew on.

[austinpop]

3 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Uh oh.  Larry wants to look at Rajiv's back end.  What sort of site is this becoming?

(But I'll show you mine if you show me yours...)  

 

Thanks for your ass-inine post, Alex. 

 

It's these kind of lofty standards that distinguish us from the other sites.

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

All in my sig!

 

OT: Rajiv, I see you own the Focal Elear headphones.  I have not heard them yet (they are likely not on display within 300 miles of me), but I keep reading nice things about them.  Am beginning to hunt for some "reference" cans for some upcoming product development work.  Would you recommend them--confidently enough for me to purchase "blind" (or would that be deaf?)?

 

Others to consider? 

The only pair of cans that made me go WOW--when I was at the 2015 RMAF--were the Zenith Audio modified PM2 (neither of the stock Oppo cans did anything for me).

 

Thanks,

 

ALEX

[austinpop]

28 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

OT: Rajiv, I see you own the Focal Elear headphones.  I have not heard them yet (they are likely not on display within 300 miles of me), but I keep reading nice things about them.  Am beginning to hunt for some "reference" cans for some upcoming product development work.  Would you recommend them--confidently enough for me to purchase "blind" (or would that be deaf?)?

 

Hi Alex, yes this is OT, and we should probably take it to PM if needed. It really depends on:

• your price range
• your musical preferences
• open vs. closed 

Given the Elear's can be had for around $800, it's a real standout in value. I wrote a review on them in head-fi: 

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/focal-elear-in-stock-and-a-loaner-program.821542/page-4#post_13056744

 

Take a look.

 

28 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Others to consider? 

The only pair of cans that made me go WOW--when I was at the 2015 RMAF--were the Zenith Audio modified PM2 (neither of the stock Oppo cans did anything for me).

 

In the sub-$1k range, not much. Some people swear by the Audioquest Night Hawk and Night Owl, but I haven't heard them. Once you get in the sub-$2k range, the Mr Speakers EtherFlow and EtherFlow C are very good. A lot of people love the Audeze line - I have uniformly found they do not suit me. They're too heavy on my head, and tonally too dark for my taste.

 

Sadly, I don't recommend buying any headphones blind/deaf, unless you have a clear return option - with no restocking fee.

 

You could try to see if Todd (the Vinyl Junkie) is still running his loaner program - the thread my review is in above. Other than that, your best bet is to go to a CanJam or head over to one of the stores in the "big city." I know The Source AV in LA (Torrance) carries a lot of 'phones on display.

 

Oh and final idea - The Cable Co's headphone lending library: https://www.thecableco.com/Product/NEW-Headphone-Lending-Library

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Uh oh.  Larry wants to look at Rajiv's back end.  What sort of site is this becoming?

(But I'll show you mine if you show me yours...)  

Ha ha Alex, you don't miss a thing!

[austinpop]

@Superdad check your PM.