Should blind testing discussion be banned on CA? POLL

[kumakuma]

I guess there are some people who just can't or won't take a hint.

 

He almost made it to ten posts this time.

[sbgk]

2.

 

You cannot be series. Your posts have sequences.

[Daudio]

Yep, its surely a bad case of 'ban the troll' fever

 

Laying down with a cold compress on the forehead can help...

Also, getting away from the computer and talking with real people.

[petaluma]

+1

 

The anonymity and/or physical separation afforded by the keyboard assures this.

 

Yep, goes back to my Bar/NFL Linebacker analogy. A few might still spew venom but most would not.

[mayhem13]

Yep, its surely a bad case of 'ban the troll' fever

 

Laying down with a cold compress on the forehead can help...

Also, getting away from the computer and talking with real people.

 

3.

[Paul R]

3.

 

Oh my lord... you are not counting puns are you? That would make people accountable!

 

-Paul

[petaluma]

No, it's a valid topic. That said, the combinations of gear is endless making it impossible. If people hear a difference, or think they hear a difference that is all that really matters.

 

Harpy, I was thinking the same thing (Bolded). Do the DBT folks perform that type of testing with every component they purchase? It seems it would be a serious amount of work. I don't change equipment often but I would assume some folks on CA do quite frequently.

[sbgk]

Yep, goes back to my Bar/NFL Linebacker analogy. A few might still spew venom but most would not.

 

I read that linebackers were prone to concussion injuries, might have something to do with your anecdote.

[petaluma]

I read that linebackers were prone to concussion injuries, might have something to do with your anecdote.

 

I'd venture to guess the only players that aren't concussed multiple times in their careers are the kickers.....

[sbgk]

3.

 

can I quote you ?

[Superdad]

Since you all were talking about moderators, postings, censorship, and bannings, I remembered this article I read in Wired last October. There is a entire semi-secret labor force of over 100,000 people across multiple countries whose sole job it is to keep gross and awful crap off of Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, etc.

And it is really thankless work with a very high burn-out rate. The Laborers Who Keep Dick Pics and Beheadings Out of Your Facebook Feed | WIRED

[PeterSt]

And it is really thankless work with a very high burn-out rate.

 

Are you now suggesting that trolls need to be burned out ?

I heard about witch fires - is that the same thing ?

[christopher3393]

Since you all were talking about moderators, postings, censorship, and bannings, I remembered this article I read in Wired last October. There is a entire semi-secret labor force of over 100,000 people across multiple countries whose sole job it is to keep gross and awful crap off of Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, etc.

And it is really thankless work with a very high burn-out rate. The Laborers Who Keep Dick Pics and Beheadings Out of Your Facebook Feed | WIRED

 

Very sad. Psych trauma for a number of employees seems to go well beyond burnout. Really puts the problems here in perspective. Trolling here is child's play compared to this.

[Daudio]

Are you now suggesting that trolls need to be burned out ?

 

rotflmao ! Priceless

 

It almost makes it worth slogging through this morass of a thread...

 

"Subject ?? We don't need no stink'n subject !!"

 

Carry on, gentlemen, et al.

[mav52]

All banned.

 

Can we just ban everyone and start over.

[Paul R]

Can we just ban everyone and start over.

 

Posting Bans? Who is getting married? And to whom?!

[esldude]

5.0

 

Edit : Childish. I know. Or realize.

 

Well I haven't been keeping count. I thought maybe you were using slang for Chris being the police. As in watch out it 5.0. As in from the old TV show Hawaii Five O.

[esldude]

Harpy, I was thinking the same thing (Bolded). Do the DBT folks perform that type of testing with every component they purchase? It seems it would be a serious amount of work. I don't change equipment often but I would assume some folks on CA do quite frequently.

 

That said, the combinations of gear is endless making it impossible.

Well of course not. While those who only do sighted listening have the same difficulty. Most especially those who have a motto everything matters and everything sounds different. That would maximize the number of permutations. Surely making putting together a system a crap shoot unless you are copying one you have heard. As you would expect no two pieces of equipment to ever sound the same or be interchangeable.

 

If one can lay down the performanc envelope of hearing ability, and can figure out what level of equipment performance will more than cover that envelope, you don't need to test every combination. You can say if a component meets a given set of recommended benchmarks it is interchangeable with any other that also meets or exceeds those benchmarks. Both will be equally transparent. Thereby simplifying greatly what is required to put together a good system to listen to your music.

[sandyk]

Well of course not. While those who only do sighted listening have the same difficulty

 

Do you honestly believe that the vast majority of C.A. members who report hearing differences, only do sighted listening comparisons ?

I am surprised that you haven't started yet another Poll to determine that.

[esldude]

Do you honestly believe that the vast majority of C.A. members who report hearing differences, only do sighted listening comparisons ?

I am surprised that you haven't started yet another Poll to determine that.

 

Why yes actually I do. Certainly the responses to the topic would indicate that as likely. If you want to start a poll, go ahead. Might get surprising results.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

I feel a need to explain why I voted "Yes, blind testing discussion should be banned."

 

I see DBTs as a dividing factor that causes nothing but friction.

 

Those who think that audio DBT’s actually reveal any differences should study both cognitive bias and listener fatigue. Our brains seem to be at odds with quick AB’ing and the only way I know to reveal real differences is by long term listening in a relaxed mood.

 

Personally I believe the person who heard a difference, heard a difference. I also believe the person who didn’t hear a difference ,didn’t hear a difference. Neither outcome means anything to me as I personally have to hear the bloody thing for myself in my system, if I am so inclined, before laying down any money. I refuse to try anything that costs money unless it comes with a full money back guarantee.

 

Besides my poor health, this thread provides enough reasons to never disclose any personal preferences on anything even if I was healthy.

 

Hi Teresa,

Well said on all counts.

 

To Fine's list " I don’t trust ABX/DBT protocols, I don’t trust name brands, I don’t trust price, I don’t trust measurements, I don’t trust reviewers, I don’t trust salespeople."

 

I would add:

 

I *don’t absolutely trust* people who hear differences as I may not hear the same differences. I do keep an open mind and respect their experiences but seek to hear for myself.

 

I *absolutely don’t trust* people who cant hear differences as they simply may not have the required skillset (or gear). Sadly for them they may be in the wrong hobby but that is not for me to judge, just ponder.

 

I *absolutely distrust* manufacturers who claim their product does or *does not* produce audible differences ….until such time as I have heard the product. I intensely dislike the arrogance of any manufacturer who presumes to deny me of that opportunity.

 

 

Regarding the ABX DBT I would say, AFAIK, it has not been shown to be a "gold standard" test of determining differences for complex musical perceptions (as opposed to simple unimodal sensory modalities). Anyone who says it does should point to the references detailing the tests performance in such *quality measures* as sensitivity, specificity, reliability, validity, true/false positives, true/false negatives, positive and negative predictive values. Now if you don’t have a clue about these things but still blindly assert the legitimacy of the test then IMO you are an idiot, scientifically speaking that is. OTOH I, in truth, do not know that audio abx dbt will not be shown to be worthwhile one day if someone does the research. I highly, highly doubt it. Until such time it is useless and unintelligent to offer up an unproven testing method to incite arguments, IMO. There is just far too much pseudoscience peddled by anti-audiophiles using tests that do not count and measuring surrogate values as if they were the measure of the real thing or thinking they have established a causal correlation. Complete nonsense. Until then, like all good audiophiles I will trust my ears every time. My ears in conjunction with my brain assess the only outcome I am interested in, musical appreciation.

 

Sorry to hear about your chronic pain problem. I do treat chronic pain and entrenched pain states are a complex problem. Like audio there are physical and psychological influences affecting *all of us* (The IASP defines pain as both a physical and emotional experience). What we have learnt about the neurobiology of pain, central sensitisation in conjunction with neuroplasticity changes in the peripheral and central nervous system, points to a multidisciplinary/multimodal approach to management. In many/most instances it appears the usual dishinhibitory neural pathways are not functioning properly. The cruel twist is the more the focus and attention the worse it gets, the harder you try to beat it the more likely to fail. It is counter intuitive to have to learn not to try so hard in a (western) world that typically promotes a 'fight, fight and never give in' approach to life. "Letting go' is an alien concept for some and I have had patients say " I try very hard to let go" thus failing before they start. I sometimes give the analogy that you cant force yourself to go to sleep. You setup the necessary conditions and simply let it happen. This is all rather too simplistic and philosophical, and I know nothing of your circumstances, just to say it forms the basis of one of the traps or barriers to further chronic pain rehabilitation. I stress I am talking generally about chronic pain states not specifically about your pain. YMMV.

 

Cheers

David

[sandyk]

Why yes actually I do. Certainly the responses to the topic would indicate that as likely. If you want to start a poll, go ahead. Might get surprising results.

 

I am not the one that thinks most C.A. members are gullible idiots with more money than sense.

You are the one that keeps hinting at that. Personally, I think that the vast majority of polls are ill conceived, a waste of time, and often lead to friction. If you really want to know, then you start another poll. I give most C.A. members far more credit than you apparently do.

[elcorso]

All, I repeat all, sites attract trolls.

 

Maybe you should require to show their Xanax prescription to each CA subscriber?

 

 

 

 

Roch

 

 

PS/ Not to me, please, I'm already under heavy medication...!

[petaluma]

That said, the combinations of gear is endless making it impossible.

Well of course not. While those who only do sighted listening have the same difficulty. Most especially those who have a motto everything matters and everything sounds different. That would maximize the number of permutations. Surely making putting together a system a crap shoot unless you are copying one you have heard. As you would expect no two pieces of equipment to ever sound the same or be interchangeable.

 

If one can lay down the performanc envelope of hearing ability, and can figure out what level of equipment performance will more than cover that envelope, you don't need to test every combination. You can say if a component meets a given set of recommended benchmarks it is interchangeable with any other that also meets or exceeds those benchmarks. Both will be equally transparent. Thereby simplifying greatly what is required to put together a good system to listen to your music.

 

When I decide to buy a new component I generally follow something like the methodology you outlined. You narrow down the list and then begin your listening. Do you DBT the narrowed list of components? Say maybe 2 or 3 DACS that look interesting?

 

The reason I asked the question is the passionate arguments that are in these posts and if that translated into real world behavior. Thanks

[jriver]

Can we just ban everyone and start over.

LOL. Thanks.