Should blind testing discussion be banned on CA? POLL

[Jud]

I heartily agree with that. But how can I myself with such an outcome ? quite difficult.

Meanwhile I feel it as completely wasted that again me myself has put effort in a DBT thread, which happily vanished, might come back and out of all over the same subject. Ok, dictionary tells me direct object or accusative. The latter seems nice.

But no word about it all. Just done.

 

Well - You could, if you wanted to expend the effort (again) start a thread where you provide all of your objections to (1) blind testing, and (2) rapid A/B sighted testing, and/or your ideas in support of the type of testing you do. Yes, even though you have done this many times before that I've personally read. If you wanted to try to avoid the sorts of arguments and sniping that have unfortunately marred some previous discussions, you could even ask that the discussion be confined to ideas about types of testing other than blind.

 

I think better your own thread, for two reasons: This thread is more about whether we are able to discuss DBT constructively, and less about how good or bad DBT is; and Chris has said he will support the right of the person who originates a thread to moderate that thread, so if mere argument and sniping does break out rather than useful discussion, you can ask Chris to remove the offending posts, or yourself ask those who've done the offending posts to delete them.

[Paul R]

Oh pretty simple really. Those who 'think' they hear a difference feel much more special when they can face off against those who hear there is no difference. Hence it is really good for a site supported by advertising.

 

You get all this hoopla over whether or not something is better. People with good systems want to see if it is. They get it and 'hear' the difference making themselves and those selling the goods happy. Making them feel they need to go dispute those naysayers. All one big happy positive feedback loop about negative feedback.

 

In layman's terms, is that a chip you have on your shoulder, or the rock of Gibraltar?

 

I know it is neither actually, but you are really hung up on this stuff.

 

Seriously, you don't honestly believe what you wrote above, do you? Nobody (almost nobody?) on the "other" side really objects to blind testing, just to the stance of making a blind test the "gold standard." Or being presented as a fool if one doesn't totally fall into lockstep with the DBT crowd.

 

It seems slightly less than sane to dismiss an entire body of experience as folly simply because few are willing to play the game. At least the game as it is espoused by say, one of the gas filled competing forums.

 

There is some other human factor in play here - as a Mac person (described as a MacTribesman by a particular witty friend in the old days) it was an everyday thing to see Macs being despised in print by people who had Windows PCs that were "just as good and much cheaper too!"

 

I remember with that generated a similar spark of frustration on both sides. Windows PC people sneering at MacTribemen who were ready to poke the Windows guys with any virtual sharp stick that came to hand.

 

-Paul

[Paul R]

Well - You could, if you wanted to expend the effort (again) start a thread where you provide all of your objections to (1) blind testing, and (2) rapid A/B sighted testing, and/or your ideas in support of the type of testing you do. Yes, even though you have done this many times before that I've personally read. If you wanted to try to avoid the sorts of arguments and sniping that have unfortunately marred some previous discussions, you could even ask that the discussion be confined to ideas about types of testing other than blind.

 

I think better your own thread, for two reasons: This thread is more about whether we are able to discuss DBT constructively, and less about how good or bad DBT is; and Chris has said he will support the right of the person who originates a thread to moderate that thread, so if mere argument and sniping does break out rather than useful discussion, you can ask Chris to remove the offending posts, or yourself ask those who've done the offending posts to delete them.

 

What would be cool is to come up with a CA "Test Kit" that contained instructions and everything needed to do some standard testing at home, and a way to report the results.

 

-Paul

[PeterSt]

Now I'll be damned. Jud, excuse me, but what does this all have to do with DBT ?

I appreciate your sincere advice though. No doubt about that.

 

No body is allowed to throw out a thread where much effort of many went in. Whether about DBT or the color of the moon.

Also, in my view, it is not allowed to close down a thread for reasons of the thread's existence itself. And that without an explanation other than "not useful". That meanwhile effort was put into the same guy who needed some "severe help" so to speak - and which seemed to help, is making it all together a ...

I actually have no words.

 

I hope it is clear now.

 

And might a next advice be "then start a thread about *that*" ... I don't think that would be much useful eh ? not any more.

 

And this is how it will continue now in this thread. Until it's closed down and someone is banned again, which is by now likely to be me.

[alfe]

Now I'll be damned. Jud, excuse me, but what does this all have to do with DBT ?

I appreciate your sincere advice though. No doubt about that.

 

No body is allowed to throw out a thread where much effort of many went in. Whether about DBT or the color of the moon.

Also, in my view, it is not allowed to close down a thread for reasons of the thread's existence itself. And that without an explanation other than "not useful". That meanwhile effort was put into the same guy who needed some "severe help" so to speak - and which seemed to help, is making it all together a ...

I actually have no words.

 

I hope it is clear now.

 

And might a next advice be "then start a thread about *that*" ... I don't think that would be much useful eh ? not any more.

 

And this is how it will continue now in this thread. Until it's closed down and someone is banned again, which is by now likely to be me.

 

Peter,

 

What have to be said is said now let's get over it, as an adult we should not break our toy:)

[PeterSt]

What have to be said is said now let's get over it, as an adult we should not break our toy:)

 

Alfe, thank you. At least such advices are genuine, even if given to what I would call a troll by now.

But for me it doesn't work like that. We are all adults, and all is about education first. Well, I don't feel educated much by all this BS happening in here. So it is the other way around - "learn" from how "the adult" is treating me and others. I didn't count specifically that, but our educating adult has been called for countless times. Result ? nada. Exactly nada. No, actually not exactly nada. Minus nada it is if you pay attention.

So what's left ? behave as a troll. Nothing to learn, might you feel you're childish. And by all means, I don't mean any of you who *do* respond. I hope it is very very clear.

 

Sorry guys.

[Paul R]

Peter, I think I begin to get the idea that something is clearly bothering you. Is it that the work you put into postings is now inaccessible or gone? I feel bad about that too.

 

But I wish you would put some of your thinking up in a blog post about that. I do have some of the posts you put out in my email, and could send them to you if you wish. Not all, since the system does not work that way anymore, but some.

 

-Paul

 

 

Alfe, thank you. At least such advices are genuine, even if given to what I would call a troll by now.

But for me it doesn't work like that. We are all adults, and all is about education first. Well, I don't feel educated much by all this BS happening in here. So it is the other way around - "learn" from how "the adult" is treating me and others. I didn't count specifically that, but our educating adult has been called for countless times. Result ? nada. Exactly nada. No, actually not exactly nada. Minus nada it is if you pay attention.

So what's left ? behave as a troll. Nothing to learn, might you feel you're childish. And by all means, I don't mean any of you who *do* respond. I hope it is very very clear.

 

Sorry guys.

[JPrince]

Unless we are talking about the NSA (careful they may be listening) or the CIA, how can more transparency ever be a bad thing?

 

 

 

Bravo, so you have expressed your opinion. How does that substitute for the moderator telling us if that was his sole purpose or whether there were other factors that played into his decision?

 

With the greatest of respect, Chris, alfe's reply to your question in post #209 is an honest and valid one, and raises questions shared by a lot of members of this Forum. Many have complained about all the informative posts that were deleted when the presence of the originator of the offending thread was eliminated. What is wrong with explaining why those posts were not or could not have been retained? Absent more information, it looks like a situation of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

Again, with respect, complementing Mayhem on his reply is no substitute for disclosure or openness. While as host of this site you certainly have no obligation to reveal how the "trithio drama" played out, I don't see how sharing that information can be harmful. Rather than have people speculate and grumble, wouldn't more transparency be consistent with and contribute to "furthering the goal of increasing our enjoyment of our wonderful hobby".

 

Please understand that creating controversy with this post is the furthest thing from my mind. Rather my wish and hope are to assist in putting this unfortunate episode behind us.

 

+1

 

Unfortunately not everyone is born with the same communication skills or taught how to use/develop them. Of course it could also be a plain case of simple arrogance or the lack of empathy. In any way it looks to be a typical Minnesotan thing, jriver has the same underdeveloped style of communicating/arrogance.

 

Looks like some of the more sensitive people here (poor kids!) are really pissed and about to boil over so now would be a good time to do some damage control. I wouldn't count on it happening though...(see above).

[YashN]

Peter, I think I begin to get the idea that something is clearly bothering you. Is it that the work you put into postings is now inaccessible or gone? I feel bad about that too.

 

Can we have the good contributions accessible in an archive somewhere? Chris?

[Jud]

Alfe, thank you. At least such advices are genuine, even if given to what I would call a troll by now.

But for me it doesn't work like that. We are all adults, and all is about education first. Well, I don't feel educated much by all this BS happening in here. So it is the other way around - "learn" from how "the adult" is treating me and others. I didn't count specifically that, but our educating adult has been called for countless times. Result ? nada. Exactly nada. No, actually not exactly nada. Minus nada it is if you pay attention.

So what's left ? behave as a troll. Nothing to learn, might you feel you're childish. And by all means, I don't mean any of you who *do* respond. I hope it is very very clear.

 

Sorry guys.

 

It would be nice if something like what YashN asked for could be implemented (an archive with the non-flamethrowing posts).

 

About your dissatisfaction with Chris's moderating style, I think the choice is a simple and stark one that I have mentioned before: stay or go. (I will tell you in the strongest terms that for selfish reasons I would absolutely hate to see the latter. It would greatly diminish my own education and enjoyment here.) You have very successfully implemented a more active moderation style on your own forum, so I recognize you are speaking from experience. But in this forum, it is very obvious the moderation style is different, and it is also overwhelmingly likely that won't change much if at all.

[The Computer Audiophile]

+1

 

Unfortunately not everyone is born with the same communication skills or taught how to use/develop them. Of course it could also be a plain case of simple arrogance or the lack of empathy. In any way it looks to be a typical Minnesotan thing, jriver has the same underdeveloped style of communicating/arrogance.

 

Looks like some of the more sensitive people here (poor kids!) are really pissed and about to boil over so now would be a good time to do some damage control. I wouldn't count on it happening though...(see above).

Hi JPrince - Your first two posts here on CA bash JRiver. Are you here to add something positive to enhance people's enjoyment of this hobby or for another purpose?

[YashN]

Hi JPrince - Your first two posts here on CA bash JRiver.

 

Checked it: only 1 on 2, the other one is about the bad software of the Pono platform, something I have seen others report as well (haven't used it myself).

[The Computer Audiophile]

Checked it: only 1 on 2, the other one is about the bad software of the Pono platform, something I have seen others report as well (haven't used it myself).

Jriver developed the Pono software, but not firmware. He mentioned software. I assume he meant software. This could be a bad assumption.

[sbgk]

don't post more than you're prepared to lose. Some opinions are more equal than others.

[The Computer Audiophile]

don't post more than you're prepared to lose. Some opinions are more equal than others.

You lost me. I don't get it.

[Paul R]

Jriver developed the Pono software, but not firmware. He mentioned software. I assume he meant software. This could be a bad assumption.

 

I don't think it is a bad assumption.

 

-Paul

[livelistenlearn]

Hi Chris,

 

Since you are here, do you mind if i ask a few questions?

[kumakuma]

Jriver developed the Pono software, but not firmware. He mentioned software. I assume he meant software. This could be a bad assumption.

 

I think we might be seeing the return of one of our JRiver-hating, banned users.

[sbgk]

You lost me. I don't get it.

 

Have you read PeterSt posts mourning the loss of his hard work trying to educate us about DBT, so borrowing a phrase from the gambling world - don't invest more than you're prepared to lose, seems a humorous way to sum it up.

 

The second part is just a reminder not to bite the hand that feeds you and certain contributors should be treated with kid gloves.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

The poll is too black and white IMO.

 

IMO No, DBT debates should not be banned just restricted.I havent read all the posts but did note similar views emerging such as a defined section of the forum, sticky thread or something.The problem is policing.

 

It seems to me that the majority of threads on CA disappear down a black hole based on "is it possible to hear differences" and where DBT becomes part of that debate.If hearing differences/DBT is the dark matter of the audio universe we need some kind of dark energy to counterbalance and expand discussions, shedding light back on to the topic as originally posted.

 

Perhaps we could vote for a "dark knight" that acts as official moderator assisting Chris to keep posts on topic......What could possibly go wrong with that eh ?

 

btw it was mentioned that "the DBT" thread got deleted. What DBT thread? was it new or old?

[89reksal]

You lost me. I don't get it.

 

Hi Chris,

 

There seems to be a lot of "beating around the bush" going on. I think the bottom line is that some people are looking for you to give an explanation of why the DBT thread started by Trithio was deleted? Probably a little bit of information on why Trithio was banned would be helpful as well.

 

When a similar situation arose with user Amar (sp?) being banned, you were very quick to share with the forum an excerpt from a personal email he sent you. Your silence on this issue is not helpful. It only encourages speculation on what happened instead of dealing in facts.

 

Bill Street

[YashN]

Jriver developed the Pono software, but not firmware. He mentioned software. I assume he meant software. This could be a bad assumption.

 

I see.

 

Not sure which of them he meant either though, since it could be the store software (there again there should be a server side and a client side) or the software running on the device.

[Daudio]

I think the bottom line is that some people are looking for you to give an explanation...

 

++1

 

 

Not sure which... the store software... server side and a client side) or the software running on the device.

Yep, need more data.

 

Hmmmm, I smell a whiff of 'BURN THE TROLL !!' bloodlust hanging in the air lately.

 

the natives are restless...

[livelistenlearn]

PeterSt + YashN + Paul R + christopher3393,

 

did not get the chance to acknowledge your kind thoughts/words in the other thread.

 

so, allow me to say * Thank You * (in the bigger font for Peter) here.

 

cheers.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Chris,

 

Since you are here, do you mind if i ask a few questions?

I certainly don't mind questions at any time.