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Should blind testing discussion be banned on CA? POLL


esldude

Should blind testing discussion be banned on CA?  

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Pretty simple.

 

Yes, it should be banned.

 

No, it should not be banned.

 

Note this is a public poll.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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No it should not be banned, but it also should not hijack threads where people are discussing listening experiences and differences they say they do hear.

Some DBT proponents can be like rude guests who crash a wine tasting party and insist that unless everybody puts on a blindfold and conforms to rigorous procedure then they are all deluding themselves and that there opinions on which wines taste better are just worthless anecdotes. Never mind that half the people there are vintners and the other half are sommeliers with decades of experience. Such incidents can become a big turnoff to new people just discovering fine wine tasting.

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No it should not be banned, but it also should not hijack threads where people are discussing listening experiences and differences they say they do hear.

 

Agreed.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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No it should not be banned, but it also should not hijack threads where people are discussing listening experiences and differences they say they do hear.

Some DBT proponents can be like rude guests who crash a wine tasting party and insist that unless everybody puts on a blindfold and conforms to rigorous procedure then they are all deluding themselves and that there opinions on which wines taste better are just worthless anecdotes. Never mind that half the people there are vintners and the other half are sommeliers with decades of experience. Such incidents can become a big turnoff to new people just discovering fine wine tasting.

 

Excellent comment.

 

But do we put a blanket of protection on listening experiences so they aren't subject to some uncomfortable questions?

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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But do we put a blanket of protection on listening experiences so they aren't subject to some uncomfortable questions?

 

I don't believe that Alex was suggesting anything of the kind. But, to answer your specific question, IMO there is no need to if those questions are not posed in an unnecessarily aggressive or confrontational manner and/or don't resort to personal attacks.

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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FYI and sorry for the bold and all:

 

FYI, with respect, what you have reproduced is hardly representative of the confrontational tone of the majority of his posts.

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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Not quite sure why you reposted that Peter, but searching back on the original Atkinson/Holt interview I see that poor Gordon misheard the question: JA actually asked "Do you see any signs of VIRILITY in high-end audio."

Though perhaps Holt's first response of "Don't make me laugh" was appropriate.

On second thought, it really does take balls to be in the audio business. ;)

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Not quite sure why you reposted that Peter

 

Easy Alex, because nobody who knows what this is about will understand. And since Allan was referring to something which does not exist ...

 

But I don't care. It's gone again.

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Care to explain, Allan ?

 

I removed the text from my previous post because apparently I didn't get something.

 

I'm sorry, Peter, but like Alex I didn't understand the purpose of reposting the start of trithio's thread. My comment was only intended to address a suggestion that his posts were not aggressive and confrontational.

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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Btw,

 

Yes, it should be banned.

 

No, it should not be banned.

 

No thread has been banned. But got deleted on the deletion of the account. I think you already knew this when creating this thread, and now it looks like "we" suggest that Chris should not "ban" threads. So if you ask me, he didn't. But it happens with the process of deleting an account. And with that all the "rubbish" as it apparently was judged, now disappears too.

In addition I say that "we" don't judge about this. So the poll could be a bit moot. Not that the intentions of it aren't good.

So I happily voted a No.

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I'm sorry, Peter, but like Alex I didn't understand the purpose of reposting the start of trithio's thread. My comment was only intended to address a suggestion that his posts were not aggressive and confrontational.

 

Oh dear ... ;););)

Which is exactly why I put in that text !!

Btw, I tried to carefully look whether you could intend the original post and my conclusion was Yes. Now you said "posts". Wouldn't agree with that much. And no, I certainly won't quote proof of that. LOL.

 

Sorry for the misunderstanding. My "FYI"-only looked nicely neutral. As was the quoted post (obviously). But it shouldn't have been neutral ... I should have added a +1 or so.

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No thread has been banned. But got deleted on the deletion of the account. I think you already knew this when creating this thread, and now it looks like "we" suggest that Chris should not "ban" threads.

 

I don't believe that esldude was suggesting that the thread was deleted or banned because the topic was DBTs. Rather, I think that event raised the idea of creating this poll in his mind. If I'm wrong, I'm sure he will correct me. :)

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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I don't believe that Alex was suggesting anything of the kind. But, to answer your specific question, IMO there is no need to if those questions are not posed in an unnecessarily aggressive or confrontational manner and/or don't resort to personal attacks.

 

Agreed. Neither should DBTs be repeatedly demanded as proof in an attempt to silence or to intimidate the poster. Most members don't go as far as performing DBTs, but many (most ?) do use some form of non sighted testing, and many involve others where practical before making their reports.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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I voted no because anything should be open for discussion.

What I don't understand is the level of certainty expressed by DBT proponents, there is no scientific curiosity about why people keep reporting differences. Statistics is a valid scientific way at looking at data and the probability that people are deluding themselves over sound differences is getting smaller by the day.

So, it's the dogmatic tone of the DBT proponents and bits are bits crowd that get's the hackles up.

Why does any of this matter ? Well there are plenty of bits are bits forums, but a place where people contribute towards the better understanding and improvement of their musical experience is rare and should be nurtured.

There is no harm in doubt and skepticism, for it is through these that new discoveries are made. Richard P Feynman

 

http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/

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Asking for DBT's on an internet forum has never silenced anybody ever - rather quite the opposite.

 

Nevertheless, some still keep demanding them !

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Asking for DBT's on an internet forum has never silenced anybody ever - rather quite the opposite.

 

No, but I've seen it used as a debating tactic to disrupt a subjective based thread before. If the thread is a subjective discussion thread then the DBT proponents should respect that or start their own thread up if they must discuss the topic in relation to DBTs.

 

What more is there to say about DBTs and bits are bits ? Nothing new, everyone knows they are there and available to be used, so why is it not trolling for a DBT proponent to keep posting about DBTs when they know they'll get a reaction.

There is no harm in doubt and skepticism, for it is through these that new discoveries are made. Richard P Feynman

 

http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/

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I don't know about you, but I don't see this thread/poll as voting for whether DBT threads are allowed in CA.

So are we now going way off topic, or are we perhaps going to make a new "DBT" thread of this ? I hope neither.

 

But might a new DBT thread emerge - I've had my share. And just saying : if the old one would be reinstalled and *then* a new one emerges later - no problem. But typing 12 hours or whatever it has been for me into a thread which gets deleted ?

 

So baaaaaad decision anyway.

And this poll/thread here should be about that. Ehm, in my view. Maybe Dennis has a different view.

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Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

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no. why:

1) not everyone who reads CA forum threads is an experienced CA-er.

2) not everyone knows about blind tests (BTs).

3) not everyone knows about the (relative) relevance/usefulness of BTs.

4) not everyone knows about the protocols of BTs.

5) not everyone knows about the results of BTs on various aspects of audio.

6) no one should be prevented from learning about/from BTs.

7) anyone who does not want to read about BTs may choose not to.

8) anyone who thinks that BTs are irrelevant may choose not to comment on BTs.

9) anyone who does not like BTs, but is compelled to comment, may do so... and then, if necessary, choose to explain/defend said comment (or not).

10) knowledge should not be stifled... even "old dogs can learn new tricks".

have not participated in any BT, but am keeping an open mind.

for now, not really convinced BTs are practical for hobbyists, esp. DBTs.

for now, not 100% into "crowd-think" or "majority rules" in CA-ing = if 80% of some people somewhere cannot hear any difference in a BT, it does not mean there is no difference. there could be a difference for the remaining 20%. the question is then: “why?”, and the fun is in searching for the answer.

 

conclusion: it is always good to learn/discuss/know more about one’s hobby/passion = science, tech, stats, trends, new developments, viewpoints, anecdotes, experiences. questioning to know more = human nature = one can better choose where one wants to go… and, in which direction = evolution/revolution/growth.

cheers.

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I don't know about you, but I don't see this thread/poll as voting for whether DBT threads are allowed in CA.

 

Yes, nice. But in the heat of the (deleted DBT thread) fight, I read the title differently. So apologies.

 

But now, what strange proposition this is, Dennis. I mean, are you really asking to vote for whether we do or do not think that such discussions should not be held in CA ?

 

Still, you too, Dennis, could have been in the heat of that "fight". So now at least I don't know whether I read that title a bit too fast or whether you made it is bit too fast. ;)

My vote remains No anyway.

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XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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