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  • joelha
    joelha

    Guest Editorial: Why did audio stop being about audio?

    How many forum threads on this site (and others) devolve into heated exchanges about whether people actually hear what they say they hear? Without “proof”, listeners are often mocked, insulted and their experiences discredited.


    Challenges range from assuming the listener has been influenced by expectation bias (I believe it will sound good, so it does sound good) to faulting his unwillingness to rely on measurements or blind testing.


    What bothers me most is reputations are attacked so casually. Everyone from Chris Connaker (one of the most decent people I’ve known in the industry) to reviewers and manufacturers are accused of lying, cheating and taking bribes. People, whom I suspect in most cases haven’t even heard the product they’re attacking, will smear the reputations of others they probably don’t know. Those who are attacked rely on their reputations to earn a living. That’s to say nothing of the personal attacks on the listeners themselves. And the attackers attack anonymously. Unless the case is black and white i.e. I sent you money and you never shipped my product or there are repeated, unresolved product defects, trying to ruin a person’s name is evil. Nothing will undo a person’s life faster and more effectively than giving him a bad reputation. And doing it anonymously and without hard evidence is cowardly and arrogant. In such cases, it’s highly likely the charge is far more unethical than the action being charged.


    Some will say measurements make their case open and shut. But there are too many examples of how measurements fall well short of telling the whole story. There are tube amps with 3% - 5% distortion that sound better to many than amps with far better measurements. Are those products a scam? Vinyl doesn’t measure nearly as well as digital and yet many strongly prefer its sound. Should fans of vinyl be told that turntable, tonearm and cartridge makers are scamming them as well?


    For some of my audio choices, some would say I’m deluding myself. Let’s say I am. If I’m happy with my delusion, why should the nay-sayers care? It’s an audio hobby. Why can’t I enjoy my system and post about my experiences, allowing others to judge? The nay-sayers might say “That’s fine, we’re just posting to protect others from being taken in.”


    Fair enough. But these are not always cases of “I have one opinion and you have another”. Many of the arguments are too heated, personal and frequently repeated to only be about audio.


    I believe these debates are about religion and before you conclude that I’ve lost my mind, consider the following:


    Many claim they have experienced God or have witnessed miracles with little or no evidence. The debates concerning those claims are often very intense and personal. Challenges commonly include: Where’s your evidence? Where’s your data? Only because you want to believe do you believe.

     

    Sound familiar?


    This is why I believe the challengers care so much. Allowing audiophiles to post their subjective conclusions without proof brings them one step closer to accepting those who relate their religious experiences without proof. For them, science is god and a subjective conclusion upends their god and belief system. They fight hard so that doesn’t happen.


    This is audio folks. Whether I think I hear something or not isn’t that important. If my audio assessment matters that much to you, I’m guessing you’re anti-religion and/or anti-God. That’s fine. But that explains why something as innocuous as describing the sound of someone’s ethernet cable could elicit such strong and often highly inappropriate comments.


    I’m old enough to remember this hobby when people would meet at audio stores to just listen and schmooze. We’ve lost too much of that sense of camaraderie. We may differ on what we like, but we all care about how we experience music.


    Whether I’m right or wrong about any of the above, would it hurt to return to the times when people’s disagreements about audio were friendly? Can we stop assailing the reputations of the people who rely on this industry to care for their families and employees? Can we respect the opinions of those who differ with us by not trying to shut them down with ridicule?


    It’s not about “religion”. It’s just about audio.

     

    - Joel Alperson




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    1 minute ago, rickca said:

    Aren't all digital audio components data products?

     

    Ethernet cabling and Switches are strictly data products. They don't care a wit for what's in the packet. They're just their to reliably transport frames/packets to the best of their ability. 

     

    They simply aren't audio products. 

     

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    3 minutes ago, plissken said:

     

    Ethernet cabling and Switches are strictly data products. They don't care a wit for what's in the packet. They're just their to reliably transport frames/packets to the best of their ability. 

     

    They simply aren't audio products. 

     

    Except they do care what’s in the packet. Not in a clocking audio sense, but in many other cases. Try getting a DHCP ACK without looking at a packet. 

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    4 hours ago, esldude said:

    I miss those days.

    This whole thing reminds me of Dana Carvey's Grumpy Old Man on SNL.

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    1 minute ago, rickca said:

    This whole thing reminds me of Dana Carvey's Grumpy Old Man on SNL.

    I’ve never seen it but somehow think I know how it goes 😄

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    Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:


    This has absolutely nothing to do with your area of expertise. The article is about the way people respond and reasons for such heated responses to meaningless personal opinions. 
     

    Your responses are way out of proportion in my opinion. I can’t figure out why you are so into this battle with people who are having a good time on their own. Why must you piss in their punch bowl?

     

    I like to understand those who I communicate with because it helps me learn and see other sides to issues. When I read your posts I keep thinking about that meme about “someone is wrong on the Internet. I can’t go to bed.” That’s the best case. The other possibilities are what I’ve mentioned, fear, jealousy, hatred, or something else. 
     

    Nobody spends this much time and dedicates this much emotional capital for no reason. 

     

    We seem to be spending the same amount of time on this topic however.

     

    What emotional capital? 

     

    What fear?

     

    What jealousy?

     

    What hatred? Manufacturers make claims that it's within my ability to logically rebut. 

     

    Again. This niche is simply something that is my day to day bread and butter. So the expenditure is nominal from my POV. I'm just as happy helping you parse a log file, answer questions about networking, shoot some tutorials, or offer rebuttal to outlandish manufacturer claims. It's all the same basket from where I'm standing. 

     

     

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    27 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

    Except they do care what’s in the packet. Not in a clocking audio sense, but in many other cases. Try getting a DHCP ACK without looking at a packet. 

     

    I'm pretty sure you can't hear a DORA handshake. 

     

    Also I need to point out:

     

    Switches indeed do not care about what's in the packet. They are L2 frame.

     

    A client sits on a switch port in a Vlan (broadcast domain). A DHCP server can sit on that same vlan and when the switch sees it's IP address it will build out it's layer 2 table with a MAC to IP mapping. 

     

    The client sends out a broadcast (all F's). Address 224.0.0.12 which is the DHCP multicast address that listens for all F's. At this point DORA happens and if all goes well the client gets an IP address. 

     

    The switch was only concerned with the ARP. The session setup after this is solely between the client and the server. They are concerned with whats in the packet.

     

    So if you have a L2 only switch you will have to trunk into a either straight up router or a switch that has L3 services that can provide DHCP relay. 

     

    When you do ip helper-address and list ip addresses, on a l2/l3 switch you are simply using the routing stack to do a directed broadcast. The L3 switch uses it's routed layer and just like any other ip address routes it to the corresponding server. 

     

     

     

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    9 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

    @plissken I should add that I highly respect your knowledge and willingness to help me on matters with which you’re well versed to say the least. 
     

     

     

    And I'm here to tell you that I'm equally well versed on Computer Audio Systems having implemented AVB and AES67. We are talking 150 end points, a layer 2 diameter of 4 in some cases and round trip under 2ms. 

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    1 minute ago, plissken said:

     

    And I'm here to tell you that I'm equally well versed on Computer Audio Systems having implemented AVB and AES67. We are talking 150 end points, a layer 2 diameter of 4 in some cases and round trip under 2ms. 

    That would make a really cool article. I know I’d love to read it. 
     

    But, the issue addressed in the OP’s article wasn’t about expertise. 

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    14 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

    Never mind the formatting was messed up on this one. 

    Quote

     

     

     

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    14 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:
    Quote

     

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    28 minutes ago, plissken said:

     

    And I'm here to tell you that I'm equally well versed on Computer Audio Systems having implemented AVB and AES67. We are talking 150 end points, a layer 2 diameter of 4 in some cases and round trip under 2ms. 


    Wouldn’t noise be something passing along via layer 1?  

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    1 minute ago, kennyb123 said:


    Wouldn’t noise be something passing along via layer 1?  

     

    Because Ethernet RJE is heavily isolated it's all transformer coupled at both ends. Also the Ethernet clock is based at 25Mhz. WAAAAY outside of human hearing.  And if I'm doing optics there's no leakage currents. 

     

    I've yet to see 60hz mains noise on properly implemented networks. 

     

    There is one situation that can cause problems and that is with shielded cabling tied to switch. You can get ground loop hum. UTP is recommended. 

     

    BTW my posts in this thread are typical of my posting style. People are often frustrated with the questions that I ask. Look at how some manufactures either squirm, ad hom attack, or on some forums disappear for 18 months after mistakenly saying something they couldn't take back. 

     

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    3 minutes ago, esldude said:

    No, not related to plissken's credibility.


    I’m pretty sure that he’s claimed that his years of experience in networking has informed his view that there’s no benefit an audiophile switch can do over any regular switch (my paraphrase - I can dig up quotes if needed).  He’s staked his reputation on this claim.  

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    Windows and Linux sound different.  I think that's accepted by anyone who has experimented with both.  Tuning either OS can change the sound quality significantly.  None of this stuff has been measured AFAIK.  

     

     

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    2 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:


    I’m pretty sure that he’s claimed that his years of experience in networking has informed his view that there’s no benefit an audiophile switch can do over any regular switch (my paraphrase - I can dig up quotes if needed).  He’s staked his reputation on this claim.  

    And no one has shown otherwise in a credible way.  Customers being satisfied with a product that does something as ephemeral as the Ethergen aren't credible.  

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