Is it worth it?

[March Audio]

Chris,

 

OK, to move on from this because it's not going to progress things in a positive way, can I take it that you are happy for thread creators to take control and moderate their own threads to stop this sort of thing?

 

Can you explain how this is done?

[kumakuma]

8 minutes ago, March Audio said:

Chris,

 

OK, to move on from this because it's not going to progress things in a positive way, can I take it that you are happy for thread creators to take control and moderate their own threads to stop this sort of thing?

 

Can you explain how this is done?

 

Just ask Chris and he'll do it.

[pkane2001]

9 minutes ago, March Audio said:

Chris,

 

OK, to move on from this because it's not going to progress things in a positive way, can I take it that you are happy for thread creators to take control and moderate their own threads to stop this sort of thing?

 

Can you explain how this is done?

 

Here's how it's done:

 

[March Audio]

7 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Just ask Chris and he'll do it.

I did, but it looks like he missed it.

[March Audio]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

March Audio’s situation is different. Ever since he joined there have been tons of issues. Before him, we had plenty of objective discussions that didn’t end up worthless. Now, he can’t avoid trouble. 

No it isn't Chris and your assertions here are somewhat offensive.

 

It's quite demonstrable that a couple of individuals have gone out of their way to thread crap threads I have been involved with.

 

I think it's up to you to explain why you haven't censured individuals that have been personally offensive and broken forum rules that would get most people permanently banned.

 

I didn't start this thread, it's clear others are seeing the problems.

[opus101]

8 minutes ago, March Audio said:

No it isn't Chris and your assertions here are somewhat offensive.

 

The relevant issue isn't whether you perceive what he's written as offensive, its whether the words are in accord with reality. After all, this is in 'objective fi' and taking offense is subjective.

[The Computer Audiophile]

20 minutes ago, March Audio said:

No it isn't Chris and your assertions here are somewhat offensive.

 

It's quite demonstrable that a couple of individuals have gone out of their way to thread crap threads I have been involved with.

 

I think it's up to you to explain why you haven't censured individuals that have been personally offensive and broken forum rules that would get most people permanently banned.

 

I didn't start this thread, it's clear others are seeing the problems.

I haven’t moderated those posts because it’s over and out of my mind for now. The thread is locked. There are bigger fish to fry than doing that at this moment. 
 

 

[Racerxnet]

In an objective forum, why are the subjective opinions allowed to continually spam away without any factual basis. Your audio equipment does not function on subjective engineering. I wouldn't want to stifle the ideas people present, but the theory should be presented in an objective manner with some actual testing and trial to either prove or dispel the idea. 

[plissken]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You’ve tried one approach,

 

My approach has been to participate at other forums.

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

My approach has been to participate at other forums.

And you’ve had such great success on those that you don’t come back, oh wait. 
 

Only kidding. It all depends where people want to talk and with whom. No forum is everything to everyone. 
 

I take the community approach and ask people to moderate themselves and be adults. It doesn’t always work, but it’s the best approach I believe. 

[March Audio]

23 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I haven’t moderated those posts because it’s over and out of my mind for now. The thread is locked. There are bigger fish to fry than doing that at this moment. 
 

 

Sure, thats fine, the individual concerned has only done himself a disservice by behaving in this way and loses any  credibility.  However, dont you think you need to have words with a that individual to ask him not to any continue with that sort of behaviour?  Its clear that if some are unable to behave like adults then I'm afraid thats where you have to step in.

 

Anyway, as it appears that if I can have control of future threads, if I see this sort of behaviour again I can moderate and stop the protagonist myself so you wont need to get involved.  So to a large extent the problem is solved.

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, March Audio said:

Sure, thats fine, but dont you think you need to have words with a certain individual to ask him not to continue with that sort of behaviour?  Its clear that some are unable to behave like adults and thats where I'm afraid you have to step in.

 

Anyway, as it appears that I can have control of future threads, if I see this sort of behaviour again I can moderate and stop the protagonist myself so you wont need to get involved.  So to a large extent the problem is solved.

 

Please don’t assume what I have or haven’t done already. 
 

Yes, unfortunately some people can’t be adults. Life is short. There isn’t enough time to waste on stupid stuff. Sometimes it’s best they find a new forum that fits their styles. 
 

Yes, I take a decentralized approach by allowing individuals to moderate their own threads. Understanding each post in context can be a fools errand for someone not heavily involved in a topic. I’ve removed posts only to find out to people have a long history of giving each other hell, and both enjoy it. I’m more of a “state’s rights” kind of guy rather than big federal government (to use a US political example).

 

Please request mod rights and you’ll see how easy it is to hide offending posts. Only the insane continue to waste their own time by continuing to post after each of their posts are removed. If that’s the case, we have another issue, but I only cross bridges when I get to them. 

[plissken]

13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

And you’ve had such great success on those that you don’t come back, oh wait.

 

I'm only swinging by occasionally and checking the networking forum. If someone has a legitimate need and they have hit enough pain that they are at a point of listening then I'll be glad to help.

 

Other things that have be busy is I'm now teaching Cisco's CCNA 200-301 and that has me tied up evenings after work.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, plissken said:

Other things that have be busy is I'm now teaching Cisco's CCNA 200-301 and that has me tied up evenings after work.

Very cool. I’ve always enjoyed your knowledge when you have time to share. 

[AudioDoctor]

I'm telling you, putting frank on ignore was one of the best things I ever did and has significantly increased my enjoyment of the site.

[March Audio]

16 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

I'm telling you, putting frank on ignore was one of the best things I ever did and has significantly increased my enjoyment of the site.

I have been doing the sames most of the time. However, and this is applicable to anyone not just Frank, those posts are still made even if you do ignore them.  They divert from and dilute the real conversation that's happening and others do still respond perpetuating it.

[March Audio]

4 hours ago, Racerxnet said:

In an objective forum, why are the subjective opinions allowed to continually spam away without any factual basis. Your audio equipment does not function on subjective engineering. I wouldn't want to stifle the ideas people present, but the theory should be presented in an objective manner with some actual testing and trial to either prove or dispel the idea. 

That has certainly been happening.

 

Howver Chris says the OP can have moderation privileges so it can be dealt with.  He doesn't have time to police everything.

 

My only concern with this is the real possibility of over zealous moderation turning threads into little more than an echo chamber.

[Iving]

[AnotherSpin]

6 hours ago, March Audio said:

No it isn't Chris and your assertions here are somewhat offensive.

 

It's quite demonstrable that a couple of individuals have gone out of their way to thread crap threads I have been involved with.

 

I think it's up to you to explain why you haven't censured individuals that have been personally offensive and broken forum rules that would get most people permanently banned.

 

I didn't start this thread, it's clear others are seeing the problems.

 

No two people are alike, everyone has different opinions on all and every subjects. Why should there be no end to resentment and complaining from your side? What is wrong with you? Why take everything so personally? Is your life in danger?

[PeterSt]

Interesting ... I am not even there and the same thing happens again already. Over and over and it can't stop. Staying out of this, does not help.

 

 

8 hours ago, March Audio said:

I wasn't the one who started this thread, it's clear that others are seeing the same problem.

 

 

Usually I am not the kind of guy that uses words of others to make a point. However, this time I will make an exception:

 

 

8 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

March Audio’s situation is different. Ever since he joined there have been tons of issues. Before him, we had plenty of objective discussions that didn’t end up worthless. Now, he can’t avoid trouble. 

 

 

For the thread we're in now, already causing issues (just saying) it seems best that I don't respond any more to these indeed childish back and forth of who said what (I never do that and there won't be a first time either). So Alan, it is now 10-1 or so for you in this thread - why not let it stay like that.

 

Something else: You and me and a few others, will never go along with each other. The adrenaline rises and rises and rises. Already yesterday I (indeed, Chris) thought that such a group of guys should not be able to see each other's postings. As you said it yourself, it is not a real workable way of things, but it could be a better way, especially for Chris. Point is also: while our adrenaline rises, the opposite at Chris will happen. And that only because of a few who can't stand each other's opinions. Let's please consider his position.

 

So as of late I see these groups:

- Opus101, ManuelJenkin, PeterSt.

- March Audio.

Only two groups. They should not see each other's posts, with the notice that this very thread also has its meaning, but it got derailed in post #4 (no intention to make it 10-2 btw).

Frank has nothing to do with it as he is as neutral as a person can be (has his opinions, as we all have).

For this special thread : Idiot Savant also is neutral. Sadly he became direct object.

 

So these two groups only, should not be able to see each other. The others obviously see all, and "helpers" like Racerxnet would act as middle man and a sort of control. he could join March Audio just the same, of course.

 

Lastly for my 2c, it looks like in this situation there's this camp of EE and SW guys, vs the "Experience" guys. Both have their reason for being. The specialty of the group I am in, seems to be that they consists of all these disciplines (either EE or SW (or both, like me and Idiot Savant) plus Experience). This group seems to be extra special because 

a. they would know about measurements;

b. they know about what changes sound how;

c. they would not know how to apply #a in order to justify #b.

 

This creates an interesting other group with pkane2001 as the leader, along with March Audio, both being eagerly in the objectivist camp but with March Audio regularly being pointed at things being not so black and white as adrenaline may tell (Paul's adrenaline level being stable at all times).

Later it could appear that Idiot Savant may buy the whole bunch, the "later" only occurring because he needed to learn current atmospheres (them being quite different from more than 10 years ago !).

 

I could have making this post somewhat shorter by just saying "Respect !". Regarding that we'd all better live in Jamaica.

 

 

 

[PeterSt]

12 hours ago, idiot_savant said:

from my recent experiences on this forum, being objective gets you nowhere. I’ve tried explaining pretty basic stuff until I’m blue in the face, but because someone “believes” something, that is more important. If I try and point out that maybe, just maybe someone who has worked on stuff has a better idea than someone who read about in on Wikipedia, I get shouted down until the thread is closed.

 

Hey man 😉 - may I softly point out that this could be partly in your mind only ? 

But please, I - and most of the others - grew into a somewhat more hostile world on forums. Apparently this grew as bad by now, that it is hard to feel along with you.

The general gist is clear though and Wikipedia may rule.

 

Again I like to refer to respect, but this is not easily taught. I mean, it is "in me" to respect your opinions because you really do the things (and may write the Wikipedia pages) BUT it will not go as far as giving you right that things are not able to make a difference, never mind nobody is able to measure that (here Paul (PKane2001) comes in). People who are eager to do/want that, can be counted on one hand really, if those from this A/S forum, including its past members, are counted. Btw, I am one of them.

 

What you will have missed is the situation from two years back and 5 more beyond, where the great bunch of EE now-it-all's (yea, I am sounding mighty subjective here, but hey, I really *do* make the stuff too), became the greatest pain in the ass for audio as a hobby. Two days back you mentioned "2Ghz" as more difficult than audio, but well, we also had/had the microwave guys. This is how I referred to TerraHz, which is another league really and with measurement sets which are beyond all of us.

This goes all over board when such knowledge is exclusively abused to turn down the poor audiophile who claims to hear a difference when he lays a knot in his interlinks.

 

What I would adhere is forming this group of totally subjective idiots (you're the leader for obvious reasons) who with a totally fresh look 

- are able to design electronics

- know all about software (think FPGA or just micro stuff)

- are able to physically create stuff

- don't care about money all that much (one or two could be sufficient)

- have measurement means ($$$$ which in the very end nobody will have, thus must have access to)

- are able to judge SQ results (with the clear contradiction with their EE etc. knowledge).

 

And you know what ? This just started to happen here at A/S no two weeks ago. I could well say: with all the EE authority (of the wrong form, that is) out of the way, it could happen.

And writing about this, you know what ? ... you could even have been invited by Chris for it. Yep. ... Interesting ...

 

Maybe I wanted to wrote more, but this seems a nice post ending.

[manueljenkin]

8 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Because all of you guys in that thread reported posts and whined about the other people being mean. I’d had enough of it. I can’t spend all my time on stupid stuff. 
 

It’s amazing how some people here do nothing but contribute without getting into pudding matches. Please follow their lead. 

I had a few threads of software music player comparisons that have been going for over a year now without major issues (until March audio tried to derail it as well, but thankfully I could report and get it saved).

[PeterSt]

Another kind of response:

 

12 hours ago, idiot_savant said:

*edit of the edit* - I’m here as I don’t like stupid mad things posted as “fact” in a subject I’m interested in - there is genuine innovation going on by various players with graphs and everything, and I don’t like it being confused with swapping out one kind of voodoo for another

 

You should not believe in voodoo, but you better believe in advance that if something like this "constellation" player states it changes the sound, it just does. It is only that we may not understand how it works (or even why it works). And please notice, it is your education and work-life experience which goes against this all. However, you must accept that people like this Eric - or take me myself for the better example, just utilize that same education, knowledge and experience to create audio products. Let's please not talk about these players again, but let's try to understand what could be behind products and solutions, without knowing IP etc., the products sufficiently being rewarded world wide.

 

At 150m distance from me, lives Mr van den Hul. The one from the cartridges and the one from the carbon cables and the one from the mysterious (medical) devices as of current, which latter I don't even like to understand. One thing: the man studied physics and instead of knowing in advance that things can't be, he applies this knowledge to new stuff.

Along with this goes another kind of example (interesting for your subject here), ... because of his knowledge but by far more merely because of his education, poor me is not able to talk with him about my own cables, because, well, I am not educated in the cable field.

... This is one quite huge problem of what you see happening at A/S (and I am waiting to quote responses from others to this vdHul story - haha).

 

One of the earlier versions of XXHE consisted a/o of 3 dials, Q3, 4 and 5. Back in those days, all those dials did, was creating noise. They worked in "stepless" form against each other, and they oscillated the current draw we tend to call noise. And yes, because I program synthesizers as well, I know a bit how to set that up.

You could have been around where I was tempted to being able to measure this which after some effort I could do, and where I could easily show the various settings of these dials, them resulting in different output signal against a reference. Please notice: Today it does not matter a bit whether I can show that or not, because 99,99999 % of people will tell us that the differences are so way under audibility, that it can't make a difference to begin with.

Oh ?

 

I apologize to have two examples from the street I live in, but it's a bit tough to use examples from others of which you don't know the insights really. One thing is to be emphasized: just because you have the knowledge, with an open mind you can create things that go beyond understanding and knowledge. This is how the measurements run after the facts.

Anyway, all I can do is recognize similar stuff this Eric is doing without even looking at anything (but reading his web page), which only gets emphasized by your own findings at seeing threads randomly started etc. That will change SQ all right.

So our - or your task could be to see through whatever someone is blathering commercially BUT believe initially. Most of us are not of the cheating kind really.

I did not tell about them Q3,4,5 back then. Now I do. But now they have different functions so now I can tell about the past. Doing that all the time btw. Logically.

I could show you the code including the comments.

 

Again, please. This is not about players and not even about persons. But it sure *is* about understanding and seeing through. IOW, why do I unconditionally believe in advance what Eric does ? ... because I know it can exist.

Be open minded.

 

[idiot_savant]

So, 

 

Thanks for some of the thoughtful responses, interesting stuff!

 

I think what raised it to a head was a thread is started in a sub forum, on a subject that is explicitly listed as to what this sub forum should be about, and explicitly saying that it should be about facts. Away we go, I spent quite some time and effort doing analysis, and some crazy people jump on this thread and get it locked, yet the equivalent subjective thread is still going. 
 

I understand how a “light-touch” is important, but I do feel that in this case something went wrong, whether that be people didn’t know about the moderation rules or something. 
 

I value this site, as there is *some* attempt to have a mix of opinions - the audio science one is boring to me because the view there is if product x measures y, it is perfect beyond audible levels, whilst ignoring the cherry-picking and gaming of measurements that go on, and the whole weird pro-MQA thing. 
 

I think what’s occurring here is a bit like the Brexit discussions over here - having balanced opinions doesn’t mean giving equal weight to the guy who says the sky is blue and the the guy who is saying the sky is green?

 

 

your friendly neighbourhood idiot 

[idiot_savant]

@PeterSt - you see, this is where we aren’t going to see eye to eye - if I do something, and something changes I didn’t expect, I need to know *why* - otherwise how can I be sure I don’t undo it next time? Maybe there is an easier way? This whole trying things at random then trying to come up with plausible explanations isn’t engineering…

 

I’m all for people trying things out, but that can be dangerous - let’s imagine we think replacing a fuse with a bit of wire sounds better? 

 

your friendly neighbourhood idiot