Article: UPDATE: Amazon Music HD Is Still Lossy*

[The Computer Audiophile]

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[AudioDoctor]

If I was forced to guess, I would guess that the reason streaming is a mess has much more to do with the labels than the streaming services themselves. However, in this one specific case, Amazon could do a much better job of providing bit perfect playback of their HiRes files.

[whell]

Yes, between the behavior of playback software on the streamed content, the record labels distribution methodology,  the way that some streaming producers market the value of "high resolution streaming", the impact of remastering of such content on the listening experience (which can be positive or negative) and then throw in MQA's marketing and distribution practices, and you've got quiet a dense forest of conflicting information and sonics that can be difficult to navigate through.  

 

Thanks for helping us sort through this!  Great information contained herein. 

 

Listening to my Node 2i right now.  I let my Amazon HD subscription lapse waiting for your thoughts on this.  Now I just have to figure out if I want to renew it or not.  :)

 

Interesting that you found MQA content on Amazon.  Which album lit the MQA indictor?  Was it one of the albums mentioned above?  Had no idea that Amazon was working with Bob Stuart and company.

[joelha]

Very nice work, Chris.

 

Thanks for doing the research to get this information out to us.

 

Joel

[PeterG]

I bought a Node 2i, and it's terrific for Qobuz when played through a good but modest system (Bifrost, NAD, B&W CM-1), but could not come close to matching local files on my primary system (Yggy, McIntosh, B&W 805).  When everything needs to be perfect, streaming is not (yet...)

[bobfa]

It is getting harder to tell what you are buying!  Is it live/memorex/MQA????  Whew.    Seems like we need some sort of software tool to watch the stream we are seeing and validate it.  Throwing high power hardware at the problem is also cool!

 

Accurate RIP for streaming??  

[powermatic]

Thanks, I'm about to have to start paying for Amazon, so this is great to know. 👍

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 hours ago, whell said:

Had no idea that Amazon was working with Bob Stuart and company.

They aren't. MQA tried to sell Amazon on the technology years ago. Amazon was only interested in lighting the MQA blue light so its customers could see something (I have that straight from someone at MQA). The deal never materialized. The MQA content showing up on Amazon is just there because the label provided it. 

[KeenObserver]

As I said before, it is a sad state that as we get closer and closer to the holy grail of being able to reproduce the musical experience, the music suppliers play games with the source music.

[asdf1000]

@The Computer Audiophile

 

My hunch was correct - it's just an issue with Amazon's apps (desktop and mobile)...

 

All they need is to do is workout proper 'Exclusive Mode' which they still haven't figured out. It's there but not working correctly. 

 

Glad to see my nagging you to get a Node 2i (to bypass their apps) worked well.

 

Thanks for testing this. I don't have Amazon Music HD in my country to test.

 

Maybe for a different review but I've read a lot about how shit Amazon Music HD is to use via the Bluesound, compared to their desktop apps, in terms of UI / UX.

 

And this is no fault of Bluesound - on their forum they say they are constantly asking Amazon for better API support but hearing nothing back.

[asdf1000]

5 hours ago, whell said:

 

Interesting that you found MQA content on Amazon.  Which album lit the MQA indictor?  Was it one of the albums mentioned above?  Had no idea that Amazon was working with Bob Stuart and company.

 

 

It's the same issue with Qobuz , like with 2L recordings

 

Chris tested a couple 2L albums for me in the MQA thread.

 

So it's a label thing not streaming service thing

[57gold]

Man, I'm confused.  Have the Amazon app on my music Mac Mini, pay for HD version, and who I played a couple of new albums yesterday - Dave Grissom's, Matt Scofield's and a tune by Scary Goldings with Josh Smith (I like guitar).  It all sounded pretty nice and my Mytek B+ displayed that the files fed by USB from Mini to B+ were CD quality? 

 

Not sure how to find stuff on Amazon Music HD that is higher resolution than CD quality to test? 

 

FWIW, the Mini is connected to the web by WiFi (Netgear hub is in next room, 6 ft linear from the Mini).

 

 

[firedog]

4 hours ago, 57gold said:

Man, I'm confused.  Have the Amazon app on my music Mac Mini, pay for HD version, and who I played a couple of new albums yesterday - Dave Grissom's, Matt Scofield's and a tune by Scary Goldings with Josh Smith (I like guitar).  It all sounded pretty nice and my Mytek B+ displayed that the files fed by USB from Mini to B+ were CD quality? 

 

Not sure how to find stuff on Amazon Music HD that is higher resolution than CD quality to test? 

 

FWIW, the Mini is connected to the web by WiFi (Netgear hub is in next room, 6 ft linear from the Mini).

 

 

The issue is the Amazon app sends it to Windows mixer where it gets altered. If you set your Windows mixer to hi-res then it will stay in that sample rate. Still won't be bit perfect.

[asdf1000]

There's actually one positive with Amazon having some MQA stuff there.

 

For those with MQA DACs, it's a great bit perfect test, for when Amazon get their desktop and mobile apps properly sorted.

 

That's about the only good thing MQA is good for. You won't get the MQA indicator on your DAC unless playback is bit perfect.

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

7 hours ago, 57gold said:

Man, I'm confused.  Have the Amazon app on my music Mac Mini, pay for HD version, and who I played a couple of new albums yesterday - Dave Grissom's, Matt Scofield's and a tune by Scary Goldings with Josh Smith (I like guitar).  It all sounded pretty nice and my Mytek B+ displayed that the files fed by USB from Mini to B+ were CD quality? 

 

Not sure how to find stuff on Amazon Music HD that is higher resolution than CD quality to test? 

 

FWIW, the Mini is connected to the web by WiFi (Netgear hub is in next room, 6 ft linear from the Mini).

 

 

No worries. Sample rate isn’t a decent indicator of bit perfect audio. You can take a CD quality WAV file and convert it to MP3. It will still be 16/44.1 but irreversibly damaged / lossy. 
 

The Amazon interface shows stuff as HD and UHD but will only show sample rate once playback starts. 

[MWDeBoard]

Wouldn’t it be nice if we could tell the difference by just listening and didn’t need some sort of visual confirmation?

[PeterG]

1 hour ago, MWDeBoard said:

Wouldn’t it be nice if we could tell the difference by just listening and didn’t need some sort of visual confirmation?

Of course one can tell the difference between good sound, great sound, and lousy sound.  No visual confirmation required.  But if you want to know if you are getting the best sound for a particular piece of music, you do need something more.  Chris's piece here is one aspect.  The Dynamic Range Database is another.  AS's ongoing Best Version Of series is a third.

[57gold]

4 hours ago, firedog said:

The issue is the Amazon app sends it to Windows mixer where it gets altered. If you set your Windows mixer to hi-res then it will stay in that sample rate. Still won't be bit perfect.

 

Guess I don't understand sample rate versus bit perfect. Par for the course for me as I miss 80% of the tech talking here. 

 

 I use a Mac so where does Amazon app "send it" to get altered, iTunes?

 

FWIW, the Amazon HD files sound better than MP3s, made the mistake of assuming that iTunes sold CD quality downloads years ago and bought an album (Gregg Allman's) and it sounded miserable. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

46 minutes ago, 57gold said:

 

Guess I don't understand sample rate versus bit perfect. Par for the course for me as I miss 80% of the tech talking here. 

 

 I use a Mac so where does Amazon app "send it" to get altered, iTunes?

 

FWIW, the Amazon HD files sound better than MP3s, made the mistake of assuming that iTunes sold CD quality downloads years ago and bought an album (Gregg Allman's) and it sounded miserable. 

Hey @57gold, you’re in the same boat as most people. Thanks for asking the questions/making the points. 
 

Sample rate vs. bit perfect:

 

Start with a CD quality file. It’s 16/44.1.  Play it without altering anything and it’s bit perfect at 16/44.1. 
 

Using iTunes, turn down the volume 90% and it will still be 16/44.1, but no longer bit perfect because the digital volume control removes bits to reduce volume. 
 

In this case it’s simple to hear the loss because it’s a massive volume reduction. All DACs and software that only show sample rate will still say 16/44.1, which doesn’t indicate the bits are no longer all present. 

[audiobomber]

The non-bit-perfect investigation is interesting, but my question is, how does Amazon HD sound versus Tidal and Qobuz? 

[whell]

5 hours ago, audiobomber said:

The non-bit-perfect investigation is interesting, but my question is, how does Amazon HD sound versus Tidal and Qobuz? 

 

I think the take away here is this:

 

The answer to your question is: "It depends."  You need to get the whole playback chain right to optimize playback from streaming services.  For example:

 

I'm going to play a song on Qobuz on my iPhone via Bluetooth to a DAC which has a Bluetooth receiver built in.  The song them goes from my DAC to my "Aux" input on my integrated amp.  It sounds good, but not great.

 

I'm going to playback that same song on my iPhone, but now I'm going to play it back from my IPhone's headphone jack to via a cable with an adapter that allows me to plug the able into the "Aux" RCA input on my integrated amp.  Sounds a bit better maybe, but still not great.  

 

Now I'll grab my Windows PC and playback the song on Qobuz's Windows software, output from my PC via USB into my DAC, and then to the Aux input on my integrated Amp.  Better still.  But if I don't have Windows optimized correctly, then I might not get all of the sound qualify that Qobuz is capable of.  

 

Then there are more options for playback, all with potential strengths and weaknesses.  As this article points out, I probably won't be able to get the best sound out of Amazon HD unless I use a dedicated device like a Bluesound Node 2i.  I think there are more devices that could get optimal sound out of Amazon HD.  I think Cocktail Audio makes a streaming device or two, for instance, and there are others.  But unless you have such a device, you might want to look elsewhere than Amazon HD, which, by the way, can sound excellent if you have such a device. 

 

If you don't have a compatible device already, then you're going to probably want to look at Tidal or Qobuz.  Both of these services have their adherents, and both can sound excellent.  However, sometimes its even hard to compare between services.  On each service a particular album might have one or more difference masters available, and unless you can do some sort of "A - B test" and be sure you're listening to the same master on each service, there might be claims that one service might sound "different" or "better" than another.  

 

With both Tidal and Qobuz, there are also more devices available that are capable of optimizing playback from these services.  Your choice of playback devices might range from a PC or laptop that you already have with the service's software downloaded/setup, to a dedicated streaming device, to something like Daphile which allows you to convert a PC to a dedicated playback device, and which has plugins for both Tidal and Qobuz.  

 

Bottom line - its still the wild west in the streaming world, with more questions than answers in some cases.  They all can sound good, but which sounds "best" is much harder to get at.  

[photonman]

If only Amazon HD had Spotify's apps and algorithms!  For now I will stream lossy proudly.  I let my Amazon HD expire in favor of staying with the green and black.

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, photonman said:

If only Amazon HD had Spotify's apps and algorithms!  For now I will stream lossy proudly.  I let my Amazon HD expire in favor of staying with the green and black.

Certainly nothing wrong with that. 

[57gold]

12 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Hey @57gold, you’re in the same boat as most people. Thanks for asking the questions/making the points. 
 

Sample rate vs. bit perfect:

 

Start with a CD quality file. It’s 16/44.1.  Play it without altering anything and it’s bit perfect at 16/44.1. 
 

Using iTunes, turn down the volume 90% and it will still be 16/44.1, but no longer bit perfect because the digital volume control removes bits to reduce volume. 
 

In this case it’s simple to hear the loss because it’s a massive volume reduction. All DACs and software that only show sample rate will still say 16/44.1, which doesn’t indicate the bits are no longer all present. 

 

OK, may be a dumb question...but if the shoe fits!

 

So, if I stream from Amazon HD on my Mini with both the app volume and iTunes volume maxed, and then use the analog attenuator on the B+ to modulate volume, do I have bit perfect play back from Amazon HD?

[The Computer Audiophile]

33 minutes ago, 57gold said:

 

OK, may be a dumb question...but if the shoe fits!

 

So, if I stream from Amazon HD on my Mini with both the app volume and iTunes volume maxed, and then use the analog attenuator on the B+ to modulate volume, do I have bit perfect play back from Amazon HD?

No. The apps for Windows and macOS are incapable of bit perfect.