Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[AfterDark.]

3 hours ago, sahmen said:

So guys, where do I get the Gieseman Clock if I want to buy it directly? I do not have a BG7TBL clock to trade in for it, since am coming to this discussion rather late and haven't made any purchases yet, although I do have an etherregen that I am ready to pair with a clock, so if the Gieseman is the better clock, I want in now.

 

Is this the correct one?

 

https://www.adark.co/collections/all

 

I suppose I am going to need a power supply for the Gieseman and I am wondering whether my LPS 1.2 would work for it.  Finally, I am figuring from the readings that I might need a cable to connect the unit to my Etherregen.  What is the correct cable? Or maybe should I say what are the right cables to use. Would i need one for the power supply as well?

 

Would someone kindly let me know if there is something else I am missing?  Sorry for all my noob questions.

 

Hi! Sahmen,

 

Thanks for your questions. We are having audiophilestyle.com group buy for Giesemann Clock. The package will included a 1M BNC Cable for Free. 

 

Group buy for Giesemann

 

The Uptone LPS1.2 in 12V will working fine with the Giesemann Clock which needs around 0.5-0.7A. 

 

For best isolation, the Giesemann clock should power with separate Linear Power Supply. 

 

Have a nice weekend,

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark.

 

[sahmen]

1 hour ago, AfterDark. said:

 

Hi! Sahmen,

 

Thanks for your questions. We are having audiophilestyle.com group buy for Giesemann Clock. The package will included a 1M BNC Cable for Free. 

 

Group buy for Giesemann

 

The Uptone LPS1.2 in 12V will working fine with the Giesemann Clock which needs around 0.5-0.7A. 

 

For best isolation, the Giesemann clock should power with separate Linear Power Supply. 

 

Have a nice weekend,

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark.

 

Great : So I guess the correct one to get is the "Queen square wave etherregen SE" right?  Yes I do have an LPS 1.2 on standby to use with this unit so that part is taken care of.  Mine is the 75 ohm version, so I am assuming the free cable is also made to match that spec when the 75 ohm option is selected.  It is great to have a customized unit like that all prepped and ready to go. So thanks.

 

One last question, I see that the group buy has a "limited offer" restriction attached.  Any idea how long this deal will last for, if I am permitted to ask, so that I can factor the timing into my own plans? Thanks again.

[Rasputin]

Hi guys, I just wanted to share my experience with bg7tbl and etheregen.  I have one studer900 China psu and another China linear psu with no name. Also I used stock dc cables. I borrowed Acrolink bnc cable retail over 1000 usd and I have made canare Lv 77 like Martin with furutech connectors.

 

When using stock dc cables and best psu (studer900) with expensive PC on the clock and no name PSU with PC kimber cable pk14 on etheregen  connecting with Acrolink n7 5100 Mexel bnc cable, I got a good increase in SQ over using just etheregen. 
 

Then I have made a very good Dc cable and connected best psu and best PC to etheregen and tried that alone. The SQ got to the level of the combo above.
 

Then I introduced bg7 clock with stock dc cable no name psu and Canare bnc over square waive output. The SQ degraded quite a bit loosing life in the music. Changing the bnc cable for Acrolink did increase the SQ, but it was not better then ER alone.

 

so it seems for BG7 to increase SQ of a well “served” by quality PSU and DC cable ER, one need to invest quite a sum of money. I will be getting top of the line 2 farad PSUs and I will test again.

 

however that made me thinking, that clock plus quality psu plus expensive bnc (cheap one does not help) plus reasonable quality PC plus an extra audiophile wall socket easily run into 2000 usd extra money and creates mess in the rack with all these boxes.  
 

so to get that level of sound from an audiophile switch for 2000+670 USD (etheregen) and a lot of trying and testing, I think there are just one box good solutions for that money. Eg. Vaversa.

 

I’m a little disappointed with ER, as I was let to believe by marketing that the product was top sounding and a good bargain. Now it is a good product with a sound equal to its price, nothing more and nothing less. I guess silly me for believing :)))

 

it seems I will be happy with just etheregen alone in the end;) until I get my audiophile itch and buy something outrageously expensive;) that I have heard. 

[sahmen]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

https://www.adark.co/products/afterdark-project-clayx-giesemann-ocxo-10mhz-reference-master-clock-audiophilestyle-edition
 

If this post is correct, the answer is no. 
 

Adrian has cable included in is offer. 
 

DC power cables can affect SQ a lot. 
 

This one should work very well. 
https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/dc-gac4.html or the more reasonable priced canare. (Use JSSG360). 
 

Probably not, but based on John’s paper which I haven’t studied yet, you need to be aware of if 50 ohm clock will suit you. With a 50 ohm cable. Assuming your EtherRegen is 75 ohm. 
I think it was stated that ohm didn’t matter in that paper. Earlier in this tread there are measurements of cables not matching impedance input. (Search clockmeister posts). 
 

Also it may be that the LPS-1.2 will power it perfectly. At least after warm up. You can discuss this with Adrian, as power up is different than continues draw. Heating up the clock should theoretically reduce or remove heavy power draw at start up. 

Thanks for the input. I have one technical question...  I am wondering whether I'll need to reverse the order in which my etherregen is currently connected to the rest of my chain if I should install this external clock.  Currently I am optically connected to the A-side from my Router via an Optical Module, and I have an RJ45 cable running from the B-side to my ''streamer (A metrum acoustics Ambre Roon-bridge). I notice that the external clock also has to be connected to the BNC port on the B-side of the ER.  I am assuming I can keep the rest of the components connected in the same way, without having to reverse the present order in which the incoming signal from the router crosses the ADIM... I hope that assumption is correct.

 

Also concerning the Ghent Audio cables, I currently have one connecting an LPS-1.2 to an Ultrarendu.  Do you think the same cable DC cable (spec'd with 5.5mm x 2.1mm plugs) would work for the Gieseman clock as well.  I might buy another Oyaide DC cable from Ghent audio, but I need to know that the plugs are right for both the LPS 1.2 and the Clock. Maybe I should ask Adrian too about this.,

[PYP]

Since Alex is busy with a thriving business and mentioned the mini-circuits low pass filter might not be his first priority, I ordered one from mini-circuits, specifically BLP-10.7-75+ Lumped LC Low Pass Filter, DC - 11 MHz, 75Ω to use with my Cybershaft.  

 

If you are in the US, the price is $36.45 + $12.31 ground Fedex = less than $50.  

 

Thank you John and Alex for continuing to suggest ways to improve SQ and enjoy the music.  

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, Rasputin said:

Then I introduced bg7 clock with stock dc cable no name psu and Canare bnc over square waive output. The SQ degraded quite a bit loosing life in the music. Changing the bnc cable for Acrolink did increase the SQ, but it was not better then ER alone.

 

Sorry, but even your $1,000 clock cable is not going to fix the square wave output of the BG7TBL clock enough to either justify that cable or to benefit the EtherREGEN as you could if you just use the sine wave output and this filter (right at the input of the EtherREGEN):

https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=BLP-10.7%2B

 

Read our new paper, ignore that the linked filter is 50-Ohm, use any cheap coax cable for the clock, and put the money from selling your expensive clock cable into better power supples (sorry, I have one of those Studer900 and the performance is poor; does not even come close to meeting its output current rating and the output impedance is rather high).

 

I am not sure I follow those who think they have to spend big $$ in add-ons to the EtherREGEN. The vast majority of our clients--including some with 200,000+ systems--enjoy the EtherREGEN just as it is.  Sure you can enhance it, but that does not change the fact that we back more technical innovation (and expensive parts!) into it and its modest case at $640 than was we see in any of the $2,000+ switches popping up.  

 

Cheers,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

34 minutes ago, PYP said:

Since Alex is busy with a thriving business and mentioned the mini-circuits low pass filter might not be his first priority, I ordered one from mini-circuits, specifically BLP-10.7-75+ Lumped LC Low Pass Filter, DC - 11 MHz, 75Ω to use with my Cybershaft.  

 

If you are in the US, the price is $36.45 + $12.31 ground Fedex = less than $50.

 

Puzzled about how you managed that since:

 

a) The 75-Ohm version BLP-10.7-75+ is currently a non-catalog item on their web site with no AddToCart button; But the 50-Ohm BLP-10.7+ will work just as well, even with 75-Ohm clock, EtherREGEN, and cable--or all mismatched. Referencing our paper, that's the whole point of putting this at the EtherREGEN's clock input, end of a noisy sine wave. The impedance and cable stuff cease to matter. 

 

b) I believe Mini-Circuits has a $50 minimum order (before shipping or sales tax).

[DarqueKnight]

@Superdad

 

I did not run into a $50 minimum when placing an order for one 50-ohm BLP-10.7+. The order came to $47.22 ($35.45 + $11.77 shipping).

 

As you mentioned...ordering the 75 ohm version is somewhat difficult.

 

[Avalfa]

It's just really nice that you guys found the time to write and publish this clock paper.

To me personally it makes sense why the Chinese bg7 clock didn't have much benefits over the build in clock, (if any improvement).

At least not what I expected of it after the many people trying it and mentioning it was a great upgrade. ( For the 100bucks worth the experiment though)

 

At this time I feel like I will in time, when I have got some time, try what John mentioned somewhere, to pick up the sine wave signal straight from the clock and connect that to the BNC. And add this filter which is mentioned.

[AfterDark.]

5 hours ago, sahmen said:

Great : So I guess the correct one to get is the "Queen square wave etherregen SE" right?  Yes I do have an LPS 1.2 on standby to use with this unit so that part is taken care of.  Mine is the 75 ohm version, so I am assuming the free cable is also made to match that spec when the 75 ohm option is selected.  It is great to have a customized unit like that all prepped and ready to go. So thanks.

 

One last question, I see that the group buy has a "limited offer" restriction attached.  Any idea how long this deal will last for, if I am permitted to ask, so that I can factor the timing into my own plans? Thanks again.

 

Hi! Sahmen,

 

Thanks for your questions. The cable is made to order with cable made by Belden @75ohm. So more customer can plug and play when receive the Giesemann Clock. 

 

The group buy will be last about one month. The Giesemann Clock is under review by some audiophile media in USA now. There will be official dealer located in USA, so that we can provide better customer services. Therefore the offer will end soon when we have too much demand around April. 

 

Thanks for your interested. 

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark. 

 

[MartinT]

To continue discussion of cables for 10MHz clock use in the wrong thread (apologies @Superdad), my listening tests, as I have all four cables in the same length (30cm), are as follows:

• Canare LV-61S sets a baseline performance.  A little shut in with less soundstage depth and suppressed dynamics.
• Belden 1694A gives a slightly better performance but still not sufficiently vivid to be worth using.
• Canare LV-77S gives a considerably superior performance, vivid and engaging with great soundstaging and fine detail.
• Belden 4694R gives a performance very close to the 77S but very slightly brighter.  It has all the same good attributes.

Please note, these observations may not reflect use of the cables for S/PDIF!

[R1200CL]

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/shopbycable/LV77S.htm
Canare crimp connectors
 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digital-Video-Belden-Neutrik-NBNC75TU11X-Blue/dp/B07BZVLPKF/ref=pd_rhf_ee_p_img_5?_encoding=UTF8&refRID=9P2VC1MTQTN76TV25W0D&th=1

 

https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/e07.html. Canare crimp connectors.

(Here you can ask for optional JSSG360. I have no idea if it’s has any affect). 

 

[LowMidHigh]

1 hour ago, MartinT said:

To continue discussion of cables for 10MHz clock use in the wrong thread (apologies @Superdad), my listening tests, as I have all four cables in the same length (30cm), are as follows:

• Canare LV-61S sets a baseline performance.  A little shut in with less soundstage depth and suppressed dynamics.
• Belden 1694A gives a slightly better performance but still not sufficiently vivid to be worth using.
• Canare LV-77S gives a considerably superior performance, vivid and engaging with great soundstaging and fine detail.
• Belden 4694R gives a performance very close to the 77S but very slightly brighter.  It has all the same good attributes.

Please note, these observations may not reflect use of the cables for S/PDIF!

 

I find it interesting that the Beldens measure better than the LV-77S and yet you prefer the latter. Nevertheless, it's encouraging, since I prefer the more flexy LV-77S. The Belden are semi-rigid, and any excess puts side pressure on the components. 

 

I have some Furutech FC-62 cables and I simply don't trust them. Perhaps they're amazing sounding, with lower attenuation than all the cables you've listed, but I'm leery at the lack of measurements. Marketing fluff just doesn't cut it for me.

 

[R1200CL]

Just ordered this 50 ohm cable. Have no idea if specifications is good or not. 
https://no.mouser.com/datasheet/2/1030/141-12BM_2b-1699951.pdf

 

And this one as well.

https://no.mouser.com/ProductDetail/549-CLPFL-0010-BNC

[PYP]

8 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Puzzled about how you managed that since:

 

a) The 75-Ohm version BLP-10.7-75+ is currently a non-catalog item on their web site with no AddToCart button; But the 50-Ohm BLP-10.7+ will work just as well, even with 75-Ohm clock, EtherREGEN, and cable--or all mismatched. Referencing our paper, that's the whole point of putting this at the EtherREGEN's clock input, end of a noisy sine wave. The impedance and cable stuff cease to matter. 

 

b) I believe Mini-Circuits has a $50 minimum order (before shipping or sales tax).

From the main website, you do get the message about it being a non-catalog item, but you can use this link to the web store instead:  https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=BLP-7-75%2B    I ordered one 

filter.

 

Since John mentioned this part number in his article, and previous to his article I was indoctrinated about matching impedances, I chose that part.   You can tell an audiophile something doesn't matter, but that call to logic will probably go unheeded. 

[DarqueKnight]

19 minutes ago, PYP said:

From the main website, you do get the message about it being a non-catalog item, but you can use this link to the web store instead:  https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=BLP-7-75%2B    I ordered one 

filter.

 

Since John mentioned this part number in his article, and previous to his article I was indoctrinated about matching impedances, I chose that part.   You can tell an audiophile something doesn't matter, but that call to logic will probably go unheeded. 

@PYP @Superdad

 

The filter @PYP ordered is a 75-ohm 7 MHz filter rather than the 75-ohm 11 MHz filter specified in John's clock paper.

 

Spec sheet for BLP-7-75+:

https://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/BLP-7-75+.pdf

 

Spec sheet for BLP-10.7-75+

https://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/BLP-10.7-75+.pdf

 

 

[Clockmeister]

I am curious as to why you reinquire a filter for a correctly designed product?

 

Impedance matching is critical first stage including ALL transmission lines remember SIGNAL INTEGRITY first and foremost.

 

Cables measuring if you have to use a scope make sure you are entirely 75Ohm pathway equipment not 50, 1Mohm or 10Mohm

 

For TRUE cable measurements a VNA (Vector Network Analyser) is far more preferable and accurate

[PYP]

2 hours ago, Clockmeister said:

I am curious as to why you reinquire a filter for a correctly designed product?

 

Impedance matching is critical first stage including ALL transmission lines remember SIGNAL INTEGRITY first and foremost.

 

Cables measuring if you have to use a scope make sure you are entirely 75Ohm pathway equipment not 50, 1Mohm or 10Mohm

 

For TRUE cable measurements a VNA (Vector Network Analyser) is far more preferable and accurate

In my case, I'm assuming that the Cybershaft is doing a very fine job and is well built (impedance matching is intact from clock to etherREGEN).    

 

If the $50 filter experiment yields any benefit, I will assume it is improving the performance of the cable (which I don't have the technical ability or equipment to measure).   I'm not expecting much, just satisfying my curiosity.   

[Clockmeister]

5 minutes ago, PYP said:

In my case, I'm assuming that the Cybershaft is doing a very fine job and is well built (impedance matching is intact from clock to etherREGEN).    

 

If the $50 filter experiment yields any benefit, I will assume it is improving the performance of the cable (which I don't have the technical ability or equipment to measure).   I'm not expecting much, just satisfying my curiosity.   

Hello PYP

 

I also have a Cybershaft 21A (with a significantly improved power supply and internal upgradess I use in one of the smaller demo systems), I have found that cable selections with the vast majority of these clocks can deliver quite surprising results from both very  beneficial to piss poor.

 

For some time I used a genuine RF reference cable (18Ghz BW) using T-Flex 405 very good indeed besting many multi $K audiophile cables.Cost is around $200 dollars for 3 feet un-termiated . Happily use them in my lab for sub 6G work. For audio now I use a different cable, it doesn't quite match that cable for insertion loss or overshot, however it sounds superior without question. The downside is cost. However for you guys try something similar you maybe surprised.

 

My other issue is I require 68 clock cables for the studio/lab and music systems so I have tried one or two different cables over the years

 

 

[sahmen]

8 hours ago, AfterDark. said:

 

Hi! Sahmen,

 

Thanks for your questions. The cable is made to order with cable made by Belden @75ohm. So more customer can plug and play when receive the Giesemann Clock. 

 

The group buy will be last about one month. The Giesemann Clock is under review by some audiophile media in USA now. There will be official dealer located in USA, so that we can provide better customer services. Therefore the offer will end soon when we have too much demand around April. 

 

Thanks for your interested. 

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark. 

 

 

Hi Adrian :

 

Thanks for this information about the cable and the group buy as well.  I notice you have also posted phase noise numbers for all the Gieseman Clock models on the JS Tutoring paper thread, and see that as one move up from the "Prince" to the "Emperor" series models, the Phase noise numbers also drop lower and lower.

 

For one thing, only the "Queen" model seems to have a version identified as "Square wave".  Does that mean that all the rest are "Sine Wave" models?

 

Also, given that we only have a one month window in which to make our buying decisions within the framework of the group buy, is there somewhere we might find user reviews or assessments of the performance of the various models which might help us in deciding which model to get? For my personal purposes, user reviews (or any reviews) of the Queen Square Wave SE model would be particularly useful.  

 

Thanks.

[PYP]

6 minutes ago, Clockmeister said:

Hello PYP

 

I also have a Cybershaft 21A (with a significantly improved power supply and internal upgradess I use in one of the smaller demo systems), I have found that cable selections with the vast majority of these clocks can deliver quite surprising results from both very  beneficial to piss poor.

 

For some time I used a genuine RF reference cable (18Ghz BW) using T-Flex 405 very good indeed besting many multi $K audiophile cables.Cost is around $200 dollars for 3 feet un-termiated . Happily use them in my lab for sub 6G work. For audio now I use a different cable, it doesn't quite match that cable for insertion loss or overshot, however it sounds superior without question. The downside is cost. However for you guys try something similar you maybe surprised.

 

My other issue is I require 68 clock cables for the studio/lab and music systems so I have tried one or two different cables over the years

 

 

68 clock cables is a lot!  Since Alex has asked that thread participants, talk about cables elsewhere, I'll send a pm, if you don't mind, to ask about the costly cable you would recommend.  

 

As I read about the different clocks, it makes me wonder about the level of clock that is "sufficient" for this application -- that is with the eR (vs. a DAC, for example, where I'm assuming the clock makes a greater difference).  

[Superdad]

17 minutes ago, PYP said:

Since Alex has asked that thread participants, talk about cables elsewhere, I'll send a pm, if you don't mind, to ask about the costly cable you would recommend.

To clarify: I don’t care if you chat about clock cables (or whatever) in this thread. It’s the other thread where I posted John’s paper that I am trying to keep on-topic. 

 

And David @Clockmeister:

Please look to John’s paper and feel free to comment there. Part of the thrust of it is that a filtered-at-the-target (endpoint) sine wave clock dispenses with the need to worry much (if at all) about clock cable quality and impedance matching. 

Whereas with square wave clocks those things are very important to get right.

There are other points to the paper as well.

Best,

—Alex C.

[R1200CL]

@sahmen

All your questions is answered in the AfterDark sponsored forum. I’ve asked the most. As his website is very unclear. But yes, until recently only queen existed as square. The rest is 50 ohm sine. But I think he offers 75 ohm for some. However it’s unclear how he implement this. The clocks is 50 ohm native. 

I personally would bet on sine versions to be best. Hopefully some future equipment will have better receivers as well. Doing the conversion at the end. 
People that bought queen square seems very happy with it. 
 

I personally would prefer Adrian to show pictures of inside, and type of clock.

That may be helpful in understanding what to purchase for some. 
 

Maybe bay pass internal, if any, is the best way to use AfterDark clocks. As with the BG7TL. 

 

[sahmen]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

@sahmen

All your questions is answered in the AfterDark sponsored forum. I’ve asked the most. As his website is very unclear. But yes, until recently only queen existed as square. The rest is 50 ohm sine. But I think he offers 75 ohm for some. However it’s unclear how he implement this. The clocks is 50 ohm native. 

I personally would bet on sine versions to be best. Hopefully some future equipment will have better receivers as well. Doing the conversion at the end. 
People that bought queen square seems very happy with it. 
 

I personally would prefer Adrian to show pictures of inside, and type of clock.

That may be helpful in understanding what to purchase for some. 
 

Maybe bay pass internal, if any, is the best way to use AfterDark clocks. As with the BG7TL. 

 

Andreas : thanks for directing me to the other forum (the Afterdark sponsored one for Masterclocks.)

[R1200CL]

If anyone like to find phase noise for this clock please share. 
I think it’s directly wired to the clock out. Need a f-connector to BNC. 
 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001402512471.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.56d44353ws9DIc&algo_pvid=6ed87871-60e6-40ea-804a-8ca02cd5a91b&algo_expid=6ed87871-60e6-40ea-804a-8ca02cd5a91b-17&btsid=0bb0623616169715807126671e0fb6&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_