Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[DarqueKnight]

44 minutes ago, MasterWarzombie said:

We buy a basic etherregen, which is actually not that good basic for audiophile experts because you have to add 4 times the price of etherregen to get a real result .....

 

Performance enhancements that exceed the cost of the original item is not an uncommon occurrence with performance enthusiasts, whether its audio or some other field.

 

For example, some years ago I purchased a desktop computer, 24" monitor, keyboard, and mouse for my home office for $2,200. That PC did everything I needed and wanted it to do....but....I found myself wanting more efficiency and performance. To that end, the following upgrades were added:

 

CPU - $300

Heat sink kit for upgrade CPU - $20

Video card - $300

32" monitor - $459

Surround bar and subwoofer - $500

Mouse - $50

Keyboard - $120

Hard disc drive - $200

Wifi adapter - $60

Ethernet card - $65

USB 3.1 expansion card - $100

eSata expansion card - $40

Memory expansion modules - $100

Blu-ray writer - $174

 

Total hardware upgrades: $2,488. In addition to that, $5,200 has been spent on software updates/upgrades, which I did not have to do, but wanted to do for the performance upgrades. Therefore, my total PC hardware and software upgrades ($7,688) are 3.5 times the original cost of the PC. I could not have ordered this particular hardware configuration from a PC manufacturer. It is not something the typical PC consumer would be interested in.

 

When I am done with my EtherREGEN peripheral upgrades, the total cost will be over 10 times the price of the EtherREGEN, because I opted for:

 

AfterDark Emperor Double Crown clock

Farad Super3 linear power supply

Revelation Audio Labs Cat8+ Ethernet cables

Revelation Audio Labs 75 ohm clock cable

PS Audio AC-12 power cables for the Super3 LPS and AfterDark clock

 

The fact that the EtherREGEN responds very favorably to peripheral upgrades is a testament to its excellent low noise performance characteristics. If the resolution quality was not there in the first place, differences in Ethernet cables, clocks, clock cables, power supplies, and power cords would not be discernible or as easily discernible.

 

With my EtherREGEN(s), I started out small. From the original SMPS, I moved to a TeraDak DC-30 12V/2A linear power supply, then to a TeraDak DC-50W 12V/4A linear power supply. I started with ordinary Cat5e Ethernet cables and progressed from there to the controversial higher performance, lower noise, audio grade Ethernet cables. I was quite surprised by the stereophonic sound quality improvements achieved with an inexpensive (under $100) 10 MHz clock. Those sonic improvements were further enhanced by powering the clock with an inexpensive linear power supply and using a better power supply power cable and a better clock cable.

 

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, MasterWarzombie said:

I tease but I wonder about the feelings of each one.

 

Hi:

Rereading my earlier response to you I want to be sure that I did not hurt your feelings. 

I know and appreciate that you enjoy our products, and that you take seriously the never ending quest for musical perfection. 

 

My post was to address a complaint which we have seen before—and to dispel the notion that one must spend more money in order to realize the benefits of the EtherREGEN’s 100% unique design. 

 

We see see many other switches coming to market—some at reasonable cost, some at astronomical prices—yet when we look inside at the boards most all we see are conventional switch circuits with either/both power supply or unknown OCXO.

 

UpTone is more about innovation and addressing issues at the root cause.

Proof of that is the fact that we seem alone in attempting to explain the underlying electrical effects and why they are heard—as well as how our products work to cure the problems. 

(See our ‘white paper’ from a year ago:)

 

[Above is just the first page; full paper is here:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0660/6121/files/UpTone-J.Swenson_EtherREGEN_white_paper.pdf?v=1583429386 ]

 

(Am on my phone relaxing at campsite by a lake...)

 

[MasterWarzombie]

10 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Hi:

Rereading my earlier response to you I want to be sure that I did not hurt your feelings. 

I know and appreciate that you enjoy our products, and that you take seriously the never ending quest for musical perfection. 

 

My post was to address a complaint which we have seen before—and to dispel the notion that one must spend more money in order to realize the benefits of the EtherREGEN’s 100% unique design. 

 

We see see many other switches coming to market—some at reasonable cost, some at astronomical prices—yet when we look inside at the boards most all we see are conventional switch circuits with either/both power supply or unknown OCXO.

 

UpTone is more about innovation and addressing issues at the root cause.

Proof of that is the fact that we seem alone in attempting to explain the underlying electrical effects and why they are heard—as well as how our products work to cure the problems. 

(See our ‘white paper’ from a year ago:)

 

[Above is just the first page; full paper is here:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0660/6121/files/UpTone-J.Swenson_EtherREGEN_white_paper.pdf?v=1583429386 ]

 

(Am on my phone relaxing at campsite by a lake...)

 

 

Do not worry .
I really appreciate your products (My JS2 and Etheregen) and I would surely buy your future USB product even if I already have a Sotm solution to reclock USB.

The object was not to openly criticize the etherregen since I am satisfied with it. I have followed many tips and buying products to hone my quest for a better SQ.

I just find it crazy to read the same people with ultra qualitative products continuing to write like poets on the contribution of a mini circuit filter for example following John's white paper.

The differences can only be subtle or minimal with each addition, but some people have the impression that it is day and night with each change!
Human memory can play surprises.

Afterwards I realize that we are only at the beginning of the understanding of dematerialized music even if some think that it is only 0 or 1.

I take advantage of my products including your products, it is essential for me even if music is not my greatest passion.

[MartinT]

28 minutes ago, MasterWarzombie said:

 

The differences can only be subtle or minimal with each addition

 

I can only speak for myself, but the addition of the Mini-Circuits filter to sinewave clock into my Mutec was not subtle. It's the biggest jump in sound quality of any tweaks I have done in the last few months.

 

I have another one arriving soon. It will feed the ER. I guess the effect will be smaller but, even so, any uplift now will be just icing on the cake. I'm a terrible poet, anyway!

[R1200CL]

On 4/10/2021 at 1:34 AM, JohnSwenson said:

but there is no way you can use this to measure phase noise even close to the levels we are talking about here.

What would it take ?

Any of these ?

https://www.electronicproducts.com/top-7-usb-oscilloscopes-for-makers-and-pros/#

 

I guess USB versions is the way to go ?
https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/test-methods/oscilloscope/usb-pc-based-oscilloscope.php

I like this one. WiFi directly to iPad. 😀

https://www.amazon.com/Hantek-IDSO1070A-Oscilloscope-Programmable-Generator/dp/B07GWMCHS8/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Hantek+IDS1070A&qid=1618142583&sr=8-1#productDetails

[R1200CL]

On 4/9/2021 at 2:55 AM, manueljenkin said:

There's also this lecture series that I have been going through, is fantastic: 

I’ve saw this 1.5 hour video. Not sure, but it seems to be a limitation to how good phase noise you need, before the internal noise of various components is added.

Would be interesting to know if there actually is a phase noise number to be considered as sufficient ?

I guess a question almost impossible to answer.

 

Keep in mind that it has been said, using a clock in a B>A setup, shouldn’t be expected to work (have an improvement). Or at least not as good as A>B. This because of internal noise added by the isolator. I don’t know if a isolator even has phase noise numbers. 

[Superdad]

4 hours ago, R1200CL said:

What would it take ?

Any of these ?

Ha ha ha, not even close. Scopes and spectrum analyzers are not going to give a good look at phase noise (though with an expensive differential probe and a highly custom ultra-low-noise amp you might get a modest look at ground-plane noise).

 

The best price/exceptional performance device for measuring phase noise presently is this one (which John owns): http://www.jackson-labs.com/index.php/products/phasestation_signal_source_analyzer

About $19,000—and you still need to pair it with an OCXO that is better than what you are trying to measure. 

 

By the way, the above Jackson Labs unit was designed by the famous (well in timing circles anyway) John Miles. Mr. Miles designed the original TimePod (and the software to use it). When he could not keep up with demand at the bargain price of $5K, Symmetricom took it over, and the prices for various versions (with and without display) went to $19-32K, with Microsemi buying Symmetricom along the way—and of course Microchip swallowed them as they have with dozens of other firms. (BTW, the Symmetricom is what AfterDark and many other clock makers use.) John Miles was unhappy that his designs had become so expensive and out of reach. It seems that while the small Jackson Labs promised to make it affordable, it started at about $10-11K, but they must have either realized it was too costly to build and sell at that price or that they were not going to sell enough units to sustain and support it—so now the price is creeping towards $20K. Still a bargain for its capabilities.

 

What is cool is that Mr. Miles is there at Jackson Labs now and providing personal advanced support. @JohnSwenson has received replies directly from Mr. Miles!

[ambre]

12 hours ago, MartinT said:

I can only speak for myself, but the addition of the Mini-Circuits filter to sinewave clock into my Mutec was not subtle. 

Hallo Martin,

 

Fully agree the addition of the Mini Circuit filter can be heard immediately and with such an ease that “ subtile” isn’t a correct description at all.
 

After playing now for two days my brains tell me that’s even improved!😇🥰😇 

 

Another tip: add  upfront ER additional switches and you will be amazed  and rewarded again. 
Why and how I do not know ??? 
Very best regard, Andreas

[soares]

5 hours ago, ambre said:

Hallo Martin,

 

Fully agree the addition of the Mini Circuit filter can be heard immediately and with such an ease that “ subtile” isn’t a correct description at all.
 

After playing now for two days my brains tell me that’s even improved!😇🥰😇 

 

Another tip: add  upfront ER additional switches and you will be amazed  and rewarded again. 
Why and how I do not know ??? 
Very best regard, Andreas

Square or sine wave, the filter has became an essential add-on also for me. 👍

[PYP]

1 hour ago, soares said:

Square or sine wave, the filter has became an essential add-on also for me. 👍

Jorge, 

You had mentioned vocals in your first post about the filter.  Finally got around to listening to vocals and I see what you mean.  In my system, the presence and intimacy does not seem to be altered, but there is an increase in flow and effortlessness.   Voice are more natural and that is a surprise to me since that is a particular strength of my system.    For those who use sine wave clocks, this is definitely worth the experiment.  

[MasterWarzombie]

9 hours ago, ambre said:

Hallo Martin,

 

Fully agree the addition of the Mini Circuit filter can be heard immediately and with such an ease that “ subtile” isn’t a correct description at all.
 

After playing now for two days my brains tell me that’s even improved!😇🥰😇 

 

Another tip: add  upfront ER additional switches and you will be amazed  and rewarded again. 
Why and how I do not know ??? 
Very best regard, Andreas

I assumed your clock had been unplugged to install this filter. Have you started a new initial burn in period?

 

the sine wave seems to be the solution with this filter.
We should not recommend a square wave because the latter is only for a sine wave.
However, the SQ increases in wave sine and this will no longer be the case with the square wave.

[Mouna]

If the filter is attched to the ER - then the clock is still powered on - why should there be another break in cycle - even if its attached to the clock...only if the power of the LPS for the clock is turned off....

[ambre]

1 hour ago, MasterWarzombie said:

I assumed your clock had been unplugged to install this filter. Have you started a new initial burn in period?

 

the sine wave seems to be the solution with this filter.
We should not recommend a square wave because the latter is only for a sine wave.
However, the SQ increases in wave sine and this will no longer be the case with the square wave.

 1) No changed on the fly.

@AfterDark.

2) John Swenson statement “ 

That is exactly what it is supposed to do. The purpose of that filter is to get rid of everything above the fundamental. The reason I mentioned it was to use with a sine wave which is much more susceptible to AM noise, either from the clock itself or picked up in the cable. Most of that noise gets taken care of by the filter.If you already have a good square wave the filter is not appropriate. John S.

 

Do you have and very good cable too.....for instance the SOTM BNC with also a filter mounted ?

With square wave cable matters very much.You could also order the 75 Ohm of Afterdark much cheaper than Sotm. If you have a 50 Ohm Cybershaft or Afterdark....... my advice is to use the special Afterdark cable Huhner &co very good compared with above brand and is approx. 1/10 of selling price. 

 

@AfterDark.

 

[R1200CL]

23 minutes ago, ambre said:

1) No changed on the fly.

That’s impossible ? 
EtherRegen must have the external clock available during startup, or it will fail, right ?

 

[ambre]

Just now, R1200CL said:

That’s impossible ? 
EtherRegen must have the external clock available during startup, or it will fail, right ?

 

Of course power down EtherRegen . But power clock maintains and add filter to already existing 

Cybershaft 50=>75 ohm converter. Have now EtherRegen on its site with connectors supported to cabinet floor also due to heavy SOTM Cat 7 with filter.

[LowMidHigh]

37 minutes ago, ambre said:

Do you have and very good cable too.....for instance the SOTM BNC with also a filter mounted ?

With square wave cable matters very much.You could also order the 75 Ohm of Afterdark much cheaper than Sotm. If you have a 50 Ohm Cybershaft or Afterdark....... my advice is to use the special Afterdark cable Huhner &co very good compared with above brand and is approx. 1/10 of selling price. 

 

@AfterDark.

 

 

You're endorsing their 75 ohm cable, but do you happen to know its attenuation? According to John, that's the most important measurement for a good ref clock cable. The fact their website lacks that information makes me wonder. 

[ambre]

2 minutes ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

You're endorsing their 75 ohm cable, but do you happen to know its attenuation? According to John, that's the most important measurement for a good ref clock cable. The fact their website lacks that information makes me wonder. 

Who Afterdark if so ask Adrian.@Afterdark 

If you mean Sotm they make a very good Master Clock with SIN WAVE too. And there cables bnc are filtered maybe they have a similar approach as the Mini Circuit ??

 

[soares]

4 hours ago, MasterWarzombie said:

We should not recommend a square wave because the latter is only for a sine wave.

I’ve got two clock, one sine (AfterDark EG) and the BTP. In both cases the filter improved SQ. 

[jean-michel6]

One question ,

 

does anyone has tried this filter on the Chinese clock with square wave output .
Since the square signal is so bad on these clocks may be the filter can still be an improvement .

 

 

[Rasputin]

On 4/8/2021 at 8:06 PM, MartinT said:

Look what I've received...

 

Hi Martin, where have you purcahsed this one? seems non-catalog item at minicircuits

[FIndingit]

I ordered the filter from Mini-Circuits in UK, estimated shipping 21st April. 

[Superdad]

5 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

You're endorsing their 75 ohm cable, but do you happen to know its attenuation? According to John, that's the most important measurement for a good ref clock cable. The fact their website lacks that information makes me wonder. 

 

Just a recap regarding clock cables:

—Really low attenuation across a broadband is most important only for square wave clocks; does not matter for sine wave clocks. And impedance matching matters.

 

—Really great shielding—with a semi-rigid tube being best—is most all that matters for a sine wave clock; and not even very much if the filter is used at the target device end.

And impedance matching does not matter with sine wave clocks. 

 

[owldiscourse]

Just a heads up with the digital cable connecting the clock to etherregen. Was rummaging through a drawer this morning and found a 75ohm cable (a Nordost Silver Shadow) that I decided to replace the new one ($75) that I ordered from Amazon when I picked up the AfterDark square wave clock - and oh boy was I surprised! Had been playing Biko prior to that and could barely make out the African singers at the beginning. Swapped the cables and was making out the number of singers and their words DISTINCTLY... even at a much lower volume level.  What a pleasant surprise - things are more transparent, detailed and clear than they already were. My toe is tapping and I'm on the edge of my seat again... I know Alex said to pay attention to the quality of this cable but OH MY!

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, FIndingit said:

I ordered the filter from Mini-Circuits in UK, estimated shipping 21st April. 

They obviously is sold out 😀

 

This one arrived an hour ago. Using the Cybershaft version now. 

[ambre]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

They obviously is sold out 😀

 

This one arrived an hour ago. Using the Cybershaft version now. 

You mean Crystek?