Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[R1200CL]

18 minutes ago, AfterDark. said:

Sine Wave 50ohm as standard long time ago.

Sine is obviously the best to use, and rather have the receiver convert the signal to square. 
 

Creating a good square isn’t easy. Also square demands better cables.

 

Please keep using sine 50 ohm as your standard, and offer 75 as an option.

 

If you change something in your clocks, I think searching for help, and create a better square output stage is where efforts should be. 

 

 

[MasterWarzombie]

Hi :)

I am a novice in this field.
I note from reading you that this question of the clock is a complex subject, which I do not control and I do not have this pretension of being a knowing.
However, it is fascinating. When I do not master a subject, I like to learn and understand. This is one of my faults.
To tell the truth these notions of square or not, it is complex for me.
I was very attracted (and still for that matter) by the Sotm clock but for a first step into this audiophile world, it was expensive. I turned to a Queen Square wave to begin with because intended for Etherregen and I thought to you that for the ER it was square wave.
I think the Sotm is sine.

I would like my questions to find answers for the future choice of another more "qualitative" clock even if the Afterdark clock is serious in its construction.

I am very passionate about cinema, and I realize that audio and digital are complex.
But as some say: I have to try to take a step back, appreciate and criticize my system. Everyone has almost a different system too and we all have different ears.

 

 

Thank you

[Superdad]

I cleaned up the distracting drivel.  (The privilege of being a moderator in our own forum. ) Carry on...

[LowMidHigh]

 

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

I cleaned up the distracting drivel.  (The privilege of being a moderator in our own forum. ) Carry on...

 

 

I didn’t understand his main argument: “You have to clean it up at the source.” My source is a router, through which I stream my music in a continuous fashion. So what do I do instead of re-clocking it with an ER that minimizes jitter and phase-noise? Should I get a yet-to-appear audiophile router?  Contact my internet provider and insist they “do something?” 

 

I don’t like when people are kicked off from forums. “First, they came for the communists, e.t.c.” But people who consistently divert from the thread’s subject should be banned from posting there—but only there.  

[LowMidHigh]

12 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Sine is obviously the best to use, and rather have the receiver convert the signal to square. 
 

Creating a good square isn’t easy. Also square demands better cables.

 

Please keep using sine 50 ohm as your standard, and offer 75 as an option.

 

If you change something in your clocks, I think searching for help, and create a better square output stage is where efforts should be. 

 

 

 

Why would they want to shoot themselves in the foot? 

75ohm/square is the industry standard for audio equipment (with only Japan not falling in line, I believe). 

 

it doesn't matter how loud and long you're going to bark at that tree--that standard won't change. Get over it and move on. 

[R1200CL]

4 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

it doesn't matter how loud and long you're going to bark at that tree--that standard won't change.

It doesn’t matter what professional audio uses. They have different requirements. And different frequencies. And the phase noise isn’t good at all. And I’m not sure they even use square wave transfer standard. I don’t think so. 
 

All OCXO internally is 50 ohm.

And sine is the standard. But yes all digital clocking for audio wants square. It may be better to implement sine to square conversion at receiver end. Then you avoid the problem cables any will make and degrade the signal. This is the best way for us as users. 

 

Soon, all clocking needed for audio will be originated from one single clock in your system where signal is over a fiber bus. Devises will just tap from there. It may even be on the same fiber line as music etc. 

You may even get the clock signal over internet. Which actually happens today in some areas.

It may even not be fiber, it can be 5 or even 6G. 

BTW, why is shooting them self ? 

 

[Stevem324]

8 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

Why would they want to shoot themselves in the foot? 

75ohm/square is the industry standard for audio equipment (with only Japan not falling in line, I believe). 

 

it doesn't matter how loud and long you're going to bark at that tree--that standard won't change. Get over it and move on. 

Agreed!

[MartinT]

Small steps first.  There are a lot of people yet to hear the benefits of good quality clocks and reclocking.  Far too many still quote the ignorant mantra "bits are bits" or "bit-perfect" as if that's all that is required, never mind jitter or phase noise or RFI/EMI in the datastream.

 

Over time, those of us with this attention to detail can help others to hear the difference (once lockdown is over), but I still get tremendous resistance on the forums and Facebook groups to the concept of better clocking making a difference.

 

Let's be thankful to Uptone for a truly inspiring product at a great price.  The variety of ways we are using it is wonderful - remember, there are many ways to skin a cat - and the common benefit is better musical appreciation.

[James Stephens]

A veil has been lifted!

 

(Note - The above statement is one I have promised to myself many times that I would never use!)

 

I started powering my BG7TBL with an LPS-1.2 a couple of days ago and oh boy did SQ take a jump in the right direction!

 

I was using a Teddy Pardo (TP) 12/2 before that. I'm not saying that the TP isn't a good PSU - Exasound recommends them for their DACs and the Naim community has been using TP PUS's for years; rather I suspect (I am not 100% on this) that I may have had an issue with leakage currents making it to my endpoint via the clock cable since the TP was plugged into a power conditioner that has 2 iFi iPower X 12V DC power supplies plugged into it and John write in another post that he measured a lot of leakage currents from the iFi PSU's. That suspicion led me to decide to do some testing .. I started off by making a ground shunt and subsequently borrowed the LPS-1.2 from my ER ... before long I had an order in for a second LPS-1.2.

 

I plan to re-purpose the TP along with a Y-cable to get rid of the iFi iPower PSU's.

 

Best,

James

[MartinT]

19 minutes ago, James Stephens said:

I started powering my BG7TBL with an LPS-1.2 a couple of days ago and oh boy did SQ take a jump in the right direction!

 

Nice one, James.  I found the same result, and then again when I upgraded my clock cables from Canare LV-61S to LV-77S.

[PYP]

1 hour ago, James Stephens said:

A veil has been lifted!

 

(Note - The above statement is one I have promised to myself many times that I would never use!)

 

I started powering my BG7TBL with an LPS-1.2 a couple of days ago and oh boy did SQ take a jump in the right direction!

 

I was using a Teddy Pardo (TP) 12/2 before that. I'm not saying that the TP isn't a good PSU - Exasound recommends them for their DACs and the Naim community has been using TP PUS's for years; rather I suspect (I am not 100% on this) that I may have had an issue with leakage currents making it to my endpoint via the clock cable since the TP was plugged into a power conditioner that has 2 iFi iPower X 12V DC power supplies plugged into it and John write in another post that he measured a lot of leakage currents from the iFi PSU's. That suspicion led me to decide to do some testing .. I started off by making a ground shunt and subsequently borrowed the LPS-1.2 from my ER ... before long I had an order in for a second LPS-1.2.

 

I plan to re-purpose the TP along with a Y-cable to get rid of the iFi iPower PSU's.

 

Best,

James

Congratulations on finding that level of improvement by experimenting.  The longer I'm in this hobby, the more I'm reminded that one needs to always consider the application of a particular piece of gear.  For example, the LPS powering the opticalModule in my system is modest, but it is designed/built specifically for that purpose, therefore, it performs very well.   Yet, I don't think I would use it elsewhere.

 

I tried the iFi SMPS and couldn't get good sound out of it regardless of application/location.  I sold it and bought an SMPS that has several voltage settings.  Always good to have something like that as a spare, in case an LPS fails and you don't want the music to stop.   

 

I haven't tried the LPS 1.2 for anything other than powering the eR, but it is impressive!  I have read about folks using it to power all kinds of gear.  Given John's attention to limiting leakage current in everything he designs (as well as all the other features of his designs), it makes sense that the LPS 1.2 would make an excellent clock LPS.  I've found that my clock is sensitive to proper power and that it makes a significant difference in how the clock performs.  

 

 

[Clockmeister]

On 3/15/2021 at 4:37 PM, R1200CL said:

 

I think the only true answer to this is by certain measurements by specific clocks with EtherRegen. 
My understanding this may be a time consuming process. I don’t know.
 

 @Clockmeister Are you someone that can help in this matter ?
 

The implementation of square wave also matters. Correct ?

I’ve asked also isn’t it better to implement square wave conversion on the receiver side ?

And if not, why ?

 

The measurements I’m really interested in when you’re using the B to A setup, as it has been said long time ago that a clock is highly likely not to do any help in this configuration. 

 

 

 

 

 

Hello R1200CL

 

Its been along time since I posted here, apologies we have a lot of projects that are being finalized and a couple of posters on this forum have been lucky  to beta test them for us.

 

Ok, ideal clock output wave form, is there one?

 

This purely depends on what you are trying to achieve, in what part of circuit and how critical is radiated RF emissions and conducted harmonics going to effect the product itself.

 

In an ideal world (theoretical)  the straighter the leading edge of the square wave form the less time interval error can be potentially generated. So a great many clock manufacturers plump for ultra fast rise times with high frequency clocks.

 

However in the majority of cases this can cause overshoot, ringing and negative width aberrations plus increased harmonic content. So you would need to deal with the side effects in order to produce a clock that would tick all the boxes.

 

For example one high regarded dac which used a Crystek 100Mhz ultra clock generated harmonic content up to 2.5Ghz (25th harmonics!) I replaced this with a 'lesser specification' sine wave clock and BUT better phase noise made a significant difference (positive) to the overall;l sound. In that particular case, this was due to poor original design of the clock/digital filtering/and receiver sections of that product. A satisfactory result was achieved by using a sideways fix, this will not work in with ever device, each item has its own irregularities and requires a specific fix in relation to that piece of audio's issues.

 

Having a less aggressive leading edge with result in greatly reduced harmonic transients, generally requires less Pk<>Pk swing. However it has its drawbacks which also need to be address for each case.

 

All the aftermarket reference audio clock manufacturers employ their own methodology based on their experience and understanding of the achievement goal. Much like dac's and amplifiers also speakers.

 

Which would I choose having owned, looked and improved pretty much all of the named units on this thread (plus a few more) I current own six clocks, Esoteric G-01rB, Antelope 10Mx, Drawmer, Cybershaft OPA-21A (with one of our own power supplies nice improvement) Mutec REf10, Mutec ref 10 SE-120 both with enhancements.

 

The latter reside in my personal system and one sits in my lab to lock my instruments together.

 

Each one of these clocks is very good, though they each produce different results, for example the Cybershaft is best suited to more laid back systems, it will give it a shot in the arm without question. The Mutec we feel suits more even handed systems more, the trailing note body, texture and decay are world class and the staging is prolific. It just makes you sit and listen to music for hours on end.

 

I fully appreciate that each person's experiences and views may well differ, and are equally valid for the individual concerned, so back to RC1200L question which is better square or sine?

 

From my experience a correctly implemented square wave form is preferable, like CD or records they are good and bad examples of both.

 

 

[R1200CL]

5 minutes ago, Clockmeister said:

correctly implemented square wave form is preferable

Thanks for a very diplomatic answer 😀

 

May I ask what cable and connectors you’re using ?

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, Clockmeister said:

Its been along time since I posted here, apologies we have a lot of projects that are being finalized and a couple of posters on this forum have been lucky  to beta test them for us.

Hi David:

Wonderful to see you back here again!  

And my sincere apology for not have yet replied to you very nice e-mail--of June, 2020!  I see it every day in the middle of my in-box.

Looking forward to learning if any of your projects are going to be in commercial production this year.

Warmly.

--Alex Crespi

[Tokyokyoto]

1 hour ago, Clockmeister said:

ese clocks is very good, though they each produce different results, for example the Cybershaft is best suited to more laid back systems, it will give it a shot in the arm without question. The Mutec we feel suits more even handed systems more, the trailing note body, texture and decay are world class and the staging is prolific. It just makes you sit and listen to music for hours on end.

What is your viewpoint on these 7lbtyeca? clocks from china for <$100.00.  Are they worth the time?

[Clockmeister]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Thanks for a very diplomatic answer 😀

 

May I ask what cable and connectors you’re using ?

Hi 1200CL

 

I use our own cable and connectors for all signal transmissions in the system

 

One useful thing being a signal hound is observing cable reactions under dynamic conditions and results are sometimes intriguing and confusing 

[Clockmeister]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

Hi David:

Wonderful to see you back here again!  

And my sincere apology for not have yet replied to you very nice e-mail--of June, 2020!  I see it every day in the middle of my in-box.

Looking forward to learning if any of your projects are going to be in commercial production this year.

Warmly.

--Alex Crespi

Hi Alex

 

Thanks for the warm welcome

 

This last 12 months have been insanely busy with new projects, equipment acquisitions and a new manufacturing site now secured

 

We can now design a new circuit board idea and have the prototype fully machined between 1 and 6 hours populated and ready for testing and pre compliance within 36 hours and production within one week with minimal rejigging

 

Will be adding a laser and water cutter shortly to join the neat 4 axis cnc machining station as well

 

Products

 

New streamer platform with AI derived data storage via pcie 5, a dac and three power amplifiers  and two pre amps

 

Modular high end construction with selectable modules for digital and analogue sections fully isolated and shielded coupled with our propitpratory power supplies snd regulation

 

So a great amount of work ahead!

 

Hence why I have been absent however a lot of your customer's hete in the UK like your products a great deal

 

Have made one or two changes to a couple of them as Martin T has stated decent product very fair cost

 

Will try and not be absent for so long now

 

 

 

 

[Clockmeister]

1 hour ago, Tokyokyoto said:

What is your viewpoint on these 7lbtyeca? clocks from china for <$100.00.  Are they worth the time?

 

Hello Tokyokyoto

 

The person to ask is Martin T he has a nice version of this type of clock and it performs very well

 

I have built many over the years not just for audio, a few bits of tidying up inside a quality regulator half decent lps and possibly a vonnevtor swap and you will have a smile on your face

 

For the outlay it is worth the effort 

[MartinT]

To answer @Tokyokyoto while adding to what @Clockmeister says...

 

Are they worth the time?  They are certainly worth the money.  Where else could you get any kind of 10MHz OCXO clock with the specifications required by mobile/cellphone towers for less than $100?

 

However, the more salient question is: do they improve upon the internal clocks of components such as the EtherREGEN and Mutec MC-3+ USB?  For these two specifically, the answer is a resounding 'yes'.  Give it a decent power supply, do some damping work on it, use decent clock cables and you have a bit of a giant killer with timing, soundstage width and depth and micro-detail that will shock you.

 

Can they be improved upon?  Of course!  However, it's going to cost you considerably more than $100 to do so.

[R1200CL]

Another clock. 
https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/gustard-c16-10m-clock-audio-clock-ocxo

 

When they don’t say the phase noise numbers, I’m not confident this is something to consider at all. 
 

What’s Vivid and Gentle output ?

They recommend Vivid which isn’t isolated. 

Edit

https://download.shenzhenaudio.com/download/5f64710e1e7ea.pdf

 

 

[Clockmeister]

With any clock design the numbers will only tell you half the story.

Low phase noise here is a bonus, however remember the supply rail's noise is critical along with correct circuit board layout, output transmission lines,  electrical isolation 

 

Next you need to look at stability of the signal is an oven required or you going to slave a GPS signal etc.

 

The next generation RJ45  format is close to hand it revoles around a higher bandwidth twisted pair and greatly improved interfaces

[R1200CL]

On 3/21/2021 at 5:44 AM, R1200CL said:

When they don’t say the phase noise numbers

They are 100 at 1Hz and 120 at 10Hz. 

[MartinT]

Decent, if not as good as the BG7TBL.  However, it would need listening to as the numbers don't tell the whole story.

 

The PCB does look to have a custom OCXO rather than a recycled one, but it's hard to be certain.  Nice external design and decent price.

[R1200CL]

I think i stay with a 75 Ohm BG7TBL at least until John’s paper is out. Or upgrade to AfterDark of cause. 
I will need a second clock for my SU-2. 
It’s attempting to try one small single 50 ohm BG7TBL version in addition on my SU-2. It’s less than $70. But may take 40 days delivery. 

[Rasputin]

Hello everybody, i jumped on the BG7TBL train and got one home. When I open the case I see the following, which is different from Martin's DAPU. Can anyone tell me if the ocxo any good?