Building a DIY Music Server

[Gavin1977]

10 hours ago, AME said:

 

I use the Asus GT710 1Gb, very cheap and uses very little power. 

Yep that's what I boiled it down to as well, GT710 or GT 1030 - there are no other alternatives for this application at present (Although Nvidia will release a GT 1010 / 1020 shortly to replace GT710).  Appalling prices at the moment though due to GPU shortages, they should be miles cheaper than they are.  AMD doesn't do any fanless / low profile options.

[StreamFidelity]

13 hours ago, matthias said:

I am curious how even the modded Fritzbox cable modems can sound good as ALL use the "bad" Intel Puma chipset.

 

Hi Matt,

 

the modification was more about the power supply. As far as I know, Beci installs higher quality voltage regulators and capacitors. He also offers linear power supplies. I use a Keces P3. Otherwise I don't have much confidence in the chipset and clocking capabilities of the FritzBox.

 

I perform a reclocking with Selllarz clocks on the Ethernet link. These are the devices labeled G-Switch and 11Gtek.

 

Gabriel

[Gavin1977]

Collection of thoughts following further evaluations…

The ultra low latency of the solarflare seems to give music better transient snap and timing, I think this is what also improves detail retrieval, dynamics and improved imaging over ethernet connection.  Stock ethernet via motherboard sounds more laid back, 'plodding' in its timing, less attack, which can make it sound a tad warmer due to more coalescence / slight smearing / slower transient response in playback.  In summary, music via motherboard ethernet is a bit less palpable.  

However it's a fine balancing act, it's easy for the sound to become over etched with the solarflare IMO as the effect of CPU frequency is also more obvious with the solarflare (probably any PCIe card directly attached to CPU).

Now, this is an interesting side benefit.  I am finding that the Gene XI plus the solarflare makes my use of a Matrix Audio x-spdif 2 converter redundant - just using toslink from the motherboard itself sounds marvelous, x-spdif 2 doesn't add anything extra (or worse) compared to motherboard anymore.  This was not the case with the ASROCK Phantom Gaming ITX.

I am now wondering if we have the beginnings of a suggested standard spec that anyone who wishes to put together a good sounding DIY music server?

 

1. Motherboard which has true VRM phases (avoid the use of doublers which can affect transient performance of power supply to the CPU).  I believe C621 Sage uses 7 true phases per CPU.  Increased number of phases may aid detail retrieval, due to lower power supply ripple to the CPU. 
2. Motherboard which, as well as VRM for CPU, also has minor VRM for VCSSA and VCCIO - I contribute this as having removed the need for the Matrix x-spdif 2 when I moved to the Gene XI.  VCCSA is System Agent Voltage, and it stabilizes/helps BLCK, while VCCIO (commonly known as VTT/QpI) is IMC Voltage and helps stabilize RAM.
3. Solarflare card attached PCIe direct to CPU - although this is not a huge loss of performance if you have the right motherboard (especially with regards to point 2 above) - add later when funds permit.
4. Obviously a higher performance CPU for their better binning (e.g. K spec)

Requirements 1 & 2 do seem to limit selection to Asus / gigabyte motherboards presently.

p.s. USB via motherboard still doesn’t compare well with USB out of JCAT NET XE, noise of the motherboard must still be present compared to optical isolation via toslink – it’s a significant step backwards.  USB out of the Gene XI might be a smidge better than my older ASRock mind (the performance is nothing worth writing home about though).  I think spdif on Chord products also sounds much better because we completely sidestep the issue of USB drivers – processing of spdif is completely under Robs control directly on the FPGA.  Optical toslink is also has the further benefit of being ultra low impedance.  I only play redbook / tidal, so not using USB isn't a big deal for me unlike those who use HQPlayer.  I have stopped using HQPlayer as I find it has a bit of a white noise background to it, less tonal colour (my impression is similar to the new Audiobacon MScaler vs HQPlayer review, although I have never tried an MScaler).
 

[Gavin1977]

+ Apacer or Samsung B-side RAM of course, and Optane SSD (if playing back locally).

[Exocer]

2 hours ago, Gavin1977 said:

Motherboard which has true VRM phases (avoid the use of doublers which can affect transient performance of power supply to the CPU).  I believe C621 Sage uses 7 true phases per CPU.  Increased number of phases may aid detail retrieval, due to lower power supply ripple to the CPU. 

Excellent point. I have serious FOMO for this area... as the Gigabyte Designare does use doublers for the CPU VRM. Though, having gone from the Asus Strix Z390-i to the Designare netted a "gain" in the SQ I am going for. Perhaps the additional direct to CPU lanes provided an additional benefit.

[Gavin1977]

34 minutes ago, Exocer said:

Excellent point. I have serious FOMO for this area... as the Gigabyte Designare does use doublers for the CPU VRM. Though, having gone from the Asus Strix Z390-i to the Designare netted a "gain" in the SQ I am going for. Perhaps the additional direct to CPU lanes provided an additional benefit.

Ages ago there is a post from me here on Audiophile style where I did some VRM experiments, a true 5 phase MSI ITX and a 16 (or was it 24?) phase Gigabyte full size ATX VRM monster which used doublers.  Both running an old 4790k CPU.  True phases seem to be best based on their transient response IMO.  The high VRM Gigabyte board potentially had better detail retrieval, but looking back on it on what I know now I don't think there's any FOMO.  The change is subtle compared to what optimizations such as APacer RAM, Solarflare cards and linear power can do. 

 

Designare has minor VRMs for VCSSA and VCCIO, Asus Strix Z390 doesn't - you might have got the same boost as me because of the addition of these minor VRMs in the Designare.

[seeteeyou]

https://linustechtips.com/topic/1211595-true-phase-vrm-or-less-phase-with-doubler/

Quote

Iirc, to get power to the cpu, using less phases and doublers makes it cheaper, but less stable power delivery and produces more heat. It's basically a way to cut costs.

More phases are expensive, but is more efficient and more stable.

 

World’s First 16-Phase Direct Power Design
X570 AORUS XTREME
https://www.aorus.com/First-16-Phase-Direct-Power-Design.php

Quote

It’s important to note that this isn’t any 16-phase power design. It’s a direct 16-phase design and this is achieved without the use of any doublers at all. The direct design means that 16 direct signals are coming from the PWM chip, allowing for more stable voltage.

 

 

There's a fairly comprehensive list here

 

https://linustechtips.com/topic/1137619-motherboard-vrm-tier-list-v2-currently-amd-only/

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Smj5dh97n32wJqm5dkdDcQt8ID7vH52-lKzaaXUUQx8

[Gavin1977]

'Buildzoid' also does really good explanations and reviews on youtube as well... he influenced me to get the Gene XI, and shortly the Apex.

[Johnseye]

1 hour ago, seeteeyou said:

World’s First 16-Phase Direct Power Design
X570 AORUS XTREME
https://www.aorus.com/First-16-Phase-Direct-Power-Design.php

 

 

This is the motherboard I built my office PC with.  JCAT USB XE to Hugo TT2 to Omega CAMs and a Rel sub.  EtherRegen feeding it from the Ubiquiti router.  Power supply has been unaddressed as it's a Seasonic Prime.  I need a better power option that can drive the 16 core AMD 3950X beast.  It sounds great as it is now but I know I can improve it.

 

I was thinking about adding the Solarflare or JCAT Net XE but am on the fence.

 

This is the closest thing I've seen to an audiophile consumer board.  I highly recommend it if AMD is your thing.

[MarcelNL]

Nice, will keep a eye open for that board. I'm currently using the Aorus X570 Elite with 12+2 phases using a Corsair AX1200i to feed the Ryzen 7, and have just started doing an 8Pin power cable, Next thing is changing to W10 as the Solarflare cannot be added to Daphile. With exchanging the Ryzen 5 for the 7 the soundstage increased and dynamics also improved.

[MarcelNL]

After some more attempts I got the Solarflare to work in Daphile 😃, apperently support is 'native' Linux and I probably just had the A and B channel fibers plugged in incorrectly last time...

 

Too early for a good verdict but the initial impression with the computer and the Klangfilm amp still warming up is GOOD!

[StreamFidelity]

On 3/19/2021 at 1:59 PM, Gavin1977 said:

Motherboard which has true VRM phases (avoid the use of doublers which can affect transient performance of power supply to the CPU).

 

Thanks for this very good explanation.

 

In my opinion, ASUS is taking a different approach. Using the example of the MB ASUS ROG Maximus XIII Extreme, a teamed power stage design is used. In contrast to the conventional phase-doubled design, the power supply takes place in parallel and not one after the other.

 

Source: https://rog.asus.com/de/motherboards/rog-maximus/rog-maximus-xiii-extreme-model/

 

ASUS writes: These improvements necessitated a re-evaluation of power design priorities, because phase doublers add a propagation delay that hampers transient response.

[MarcelNL]

The difference between fiber optic into switch, CAT8.1 out into MB Gb network, versus fiberoptic into Solarflare into MB via PCIe is NOT trivial,😎

Next I'm going to disable some stuff I don't need anymore on the MB

[MarcelNL]

And finally I got the 8 pin EPS cable finished, learning to crimp molex pins the hard way (trial and error), I used 18 AWB Neotech UP-OCC, the impact is such I cannot believe it....on the power side of the CPU, it's silly and goes against everything I know about digital yet so far all changes have very similar effect as when working in an analog environment.

Finally getting somewhere, the polished up recording of la Callas singing Casta Diva gets me goosebumps.

 

Now for the mammoth job of doing the 24 pin cable.....not making the misstake to forget the swapped connection at the Corsair AX PSU side.

[vhs]

On 1/13/2021 at 11:26 PM, Nenon said:

https://forms.office.com/Pages/ResponsePage.aspx?id=wAyHaKEU5EWxi4f_4gJE6LY6WJsC4qJJgufOWga3mOJUNlZSMDhBOEs5NVBVUDFKRENINlQzOVlZOCQlQCN0PWcu

Hi Nenon,

 

Any further news about Taiko Audio DC-DC Atx? 

 

Thanks.

 

vhs

[ASRMichael]

Up & downs in this hobby! Yesterday was a day of downs! Dreaded code 00! Either CPU or MB! Tried all usual Bios recovery and other PSU. 
 

😢😢😢
 

On order Intel i9 1090k & Asus Rog XII extreme. Hopefully my 10a rail boots ok. 

[MarcelNL]

On 3/18/2021 at 9:02 AM, Gavin1977 said:

Yep that's what I boiled it down to as well, GT710 or GT 1030 - there are no other alternatives for this application at present (Although Nvidia will release a GT 1010 / 1020 shortly to replace GT710).  Appalling prices at the moment though due to GPU shortages, they should be miles cheaper than they are.  AMD doesn't do any fanless / low profile options.

I'm using the same graphics card, and wonder if there is something even less fancy, or is it possible to switch off the card once the computer has booted? (I don't mind manually flicking a switch on a modded graphics card if SQ benefits)

[Exocer]

7 hours ago, ASRMichael said:

Up & downs in this hobby! Yesterday was a day of downs! Dreaded code 00! Either CPU or MB! Tried all usual Bios recovery and other PSU. 
 

😢😢😢
 

On order Intel i9 1090k & Asus Rog XII extreme. Hopefully my 10a rail boots ok. 

Very interested in your experience transitioning to 10th gen i9. Why have you chosen not to go with 11th gen? Is it the lesser core count?

[ASRMichael]

21 minutes ago, Exocer said:

Very interested in your experience transitioning to 10th gen i9. Why have you chosen not to go with 11th gen? Is it the lesser core count?

I read the 11th gen are really power hungry. I’m not 100% sure if my SJ 10a rail will power the 10th. I’m not using HQPlayer so normal running should be fine. If don’t boot I can configure bios using another PSU mind you. So was safest option I guess. 
 

Also got good deal on 10th, $130 cheaper than 11th. 
 

I’m sure with a bit more patience I would have researched a bit more about the 11th gen & Asus Extreme XIII. The XII I’ve ordered has 16 power stages & no doublers which should give a bump up. Let’s see. 
 

I’ll report back after few weeks run in! 
 

I’ve ordered a cheap MB to test if it was my CPU or MB that is causing the problem ! Peace of mind, hopefully it’s motherboard & I’ll have the i9 9900k for my normal desktop! 
 

My wife asked me? Did you break that deliberately so you could get something new!! & she walked away spouting boys toys & technology! 😂

[Gavin1977]

On 3/19/2021 at 12:59 PM, Gavin1977 said:

Now, this is an interesting side benefit.  I am finding that the Gene XI plus the solarflare makes my use of a Matrix Audio x-spdif 2 converter redundant - just using toslink from the motherboard itself sounds marvelous, x-spdif 2 doesn't add anything extra (or worse) compared to motherboard anymore.  This was not the case with the ASROCK Phantom Gaming ITX.

Further listening undertaken - perhaps I was a bit hasty on this, Audio x-spdif 2 does still have a slight edge, as motherboard TOSLINK out does sound slightly software.  Audio x-spdif 2 should sound better though as it's got DR linear feeding it.

[Gavin1977]

4 hours ago, MarcelNL said:

I'm using the same graphics card, and wonder if there is something even less fancy, or is it possible to switch off the card once the computer has booted? (I don't mind manually flicking a switch on a modded graphics card if SQ benefits)

Apparently not, the only way to truly deactivate an installed card is to remove it or cut the power planes on the card itself / add a switch as an onboard regulator (if present).

[Exocer]

1 hour ago, ASRMichael said:

My wife asked me? Did you break that deliberately so you could get something new!! & she walked away spouting boys toys & technology! 😂

Dude you just gave me a good idea 🤣.

 

All jokes aside, interested in how this turns out. My desktop is still running an i7 2600k happily and this i9 will become my daily driver when I upgrade... Long overdue for a more powerful desktop CPU/Mobo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nenon]

12 hours ago, vhs said:

Any further news about Taiko Audio DC-DC Atx? 

Emile has been "extreme"-ly busy with some new developments at Taiko. I will try to get an update from him next week and post where we are. I am curious myself as well. 

[MarcelNL]

12 hours ago, Gavin1977 said:

Apparently not, the only way to truly deactivate an installed card is to remove it or cut the power planes on the card itself / add a switch as an onboard regulator (if present).

that would do me fine, my graphics card is on a riser cable connected to a 1x slot anyhow so it should be doable to snip some wires and install a switch. Looking at the PCIe pinout shows 5 12V pins and 4 3.3Vpins which may be too much to handle.

Daphile does turn off graphics output as it runs headless, I'm not sure how much juice is running through the card in that state and if noise can be minimized by switching off completely.

[Gavin1977]

6 hours ago, MarcelNL said:

that would do me fine, my graphics card is on a riser cable connected to a 1x slot anyhow so it should be doable to snip some wires and install a switch. Looking at the PCIe pinout shows 5 12V pins and 4 3.3Vpins which may be too much to handle.

Daphile does turn off graphics output as it runs headless, I'm not sure how much juice is running through the card in that state and if noise can be minimized by switching off completely.

The higher end graphics cards tend to consume around 15w in idle if I remember correctly (this was from a graph on Toms hardware that I can no longer locate), GT 1030 or lower spec, probably 3-5 watts idle (GTX 1050 is similar to this).  Obviously under load is significantly higher.

 

How much noise it will add... well I presently use iGPU and will be able to disable this now, so that should create less noise on the CPU, with this being counteracted by electrical noise from the standalone card.  I seem to remember Nenon or Romaz stating that they could hear the effect of a graphics card being left in, it certainly is superfluous to requirement for audio and therefore can only be a negative thing.  However, will it be audible?  I would suggest probably not if using fan-less GT 1030 similar lower power card and it's just sitting there at idle.  Can always be under clocked as well. 

 

SGM extreme has an intergrated Aspeed AST2500 GPU on the C621 Sage motherboard, although disabled in BIOS no doubt - it'll still be electrically connected I guess.

 

So I'm not going to worry about it.