Building a DIY Music Server

[Dev]

9 minutes ago, Darryl R said:

 

Some theorize because the server is more upstream it is the more important.  I think Nenon's answer is good here, particularly because I daresay nobody has evaluated everything.  In my system, the role of the server is more subtle, but the DAC was quite expensive.  Emile might say the server is more important (in fact he did to me at one point), and Jonathan at MSB might say they've isolated the interface such that server quality shouldn't matter -- "all you need is a MacBook or a NUC."  In the end, both matter, it's just a matter of degree, and for most of us budgetary considerations kick in.

 

Agree. You can't buy an Extreme for a $500 DAC and expect a stellar performance. Similarly, an excellent DAC might perform even better with an excellent source or may not depending on the design of the DAC. Its very use case specific with no clear answer to which is more important.

[Dev]

the question wasn't so much about who can buy what. Some folks seems to just think that the source is more important than the DAC itself. Take a hypothetical example, if you have $40k for your digital rig, would you spend $30k for the Extreme and $10k for the DAC or vice-versa ? DAC manufacturer will tell you the later, while the source manufacturer will tell you the former. If it were me, my first instinct would be to spend most on the DAC first but in practice I have witnessed that improving the source improves the sound of the DAC as well. How much further you can go improving the sound of the DAC by improving the source will depend on the DAC design and architecture. There will be a point where putting more money into the source will not improve anything and the money is better spent in getting a better DAC....

 

this is why its very use case specific and needs to be evaluated on what you currently have and where can you go given a budget. If I have to spend $20k (and assuming I have the budget) on the DIY server, I would just take a u-turn and spend the money on the DAC as I know for sure it will justify my investment much better and for real SQ benefits.

[Dev]

1 hour ago, matthias said:

 

Try both configurations and report back, I bet which will win.😀

 

Matt

Will give a pass...between, what DAC and source you own please ?

[Dev]

1 hour ago, ray-dude said:

 

I have your hypothetical ratio (Extreme to Chord DAVE) and am delighted.  That being said, if someone offered a trade for any of the more upscale DACs (1 for 1, have to keep it) I wouldn't take it.  DAVE hits WAY above its weight class for me, esp. with the extra attention I've been able to give it.

 

If you are content with DAVE, then there is nothing like it. You have reached your end-game DAC and it totally makes sense to invest more on the source side of things. I can't say if this will hold true for you 5 yrs down the line but many have been caught with the vicious cycle in search of end-game DAC. For them, the question then becomes do we invest more on source or invest more on DAC ? This is why I said in my earlier post, its very use case specific. Whatever works in one situation, may or may not work for others.

 

 

 

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I tend to not view things from a more important lens though.  What is most important depends on where you system is as a starting point, and how balanced your system is.  

 

 

That is what I said earlier, which direction you go depends on where you are currently. There is no absolute true or path when in comes to audio. Even if one copies an entire system end-to-end, they will likely get somewhat different result in "their room", assuming we are taking about speaker system and not headphones.

 

 

Quote

 

I should note that the general audiophile community takes things like DACs more seriously than it takes sources (bits are bits, etc)  

 

This is because its a big ticket item, like a speaker or preamp or amp. Magazines want to review them as a key component just like analog, say a turntable, did. The concept of a good source/transport is just getting into the audiophile community slowly now. Down the line, I bet the thinking will change.

 

 

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That being said, I think there is part of the calculus that should be the same for everyone. Although not published quite yet, in part 2 of my current review I looked at the impact of the Sound Application PGI TT-7 power line conditioner. It had a massive impact on everyone of my components (Extreme, DAVE, bass units to my speakers, and even my TV).  

 

 

More than ANY power conditioner can give, it to get one or more dedicated 20A line. The best and the cheapest investment one can make to overhaul your power and it doesn't need a $20k investment 🙄

 

Never heard of SA before here and like many others I have gone through a fair share of power conditioners (Audience, SR, PS P20 and many more than I can remember). They all sound different in my system. I have no doubt the SA TT-7 sounds great but if I am starting from scratch and have a $30k budget, I wouldn't spend a dime on power conditioner first. IMO, these are things that belong to the last 10% of the sound quality. You need to get a speaker first that "you like", spend enough time positioning them in your room properly (or hire Jim S to do it for you), treat the room, get an Amp that can power it, so on and so forth. This is how my priority goes.... 

 

 

 

[Dev]

2 minutes ago, c-w said:

 

You can't because Roon never gives its endpoints path to the file, it serves the http stream containing the song. In addition to that it concatenates the next song... This is all mentioned in Euphony article about playing from RAM: https://euphony-audio.com/hesk/knowledgebase.php?article=18

 

If Roon would just send song path then essentially there would be very little difference between Stylus playback and Roon + StylusEP playback (Roon incestant chattering  would still give off some noise).

 

This is correct. With Roon, whether the file is stored locally or in the network, it constantly fiddles with the I/O. You can test this with a simple USB hard drive which has an activity led or monitor the network activity - either way, they are constantly accessed during playback.   

[Dev]

something is seriously broken or mis-configured in your system. You are almost reaching to a thermal shutdown point where the case won't be able to keep up with the cooling and the temps will rise slowly.

 

I run i9-10900K in HDplex case. The case is not optimal for anything greater than 65C TDP Processor. There is a bunch of Bios optimization that I had to do and run the clock at 4.2GHz given the power supply I have. I now run Win10Pro now and my temps are in the range 46-48C.

 

Earlier when I ran Euphony the temps were high ~60C but not that high at yours. One thing to note that Euphony Linux kernel is very old (not sure if they updated it recently) and lot of recent Intel/x86 optimization and bug fixes are missing. Later I tried a bunch of other distros, including AudioLinux which bought the temps back in ~50C. Audiolinux also sounded fantastic. In my system, I find Euphony to be bloated and after much experimentation I realized that Euphony is good for lean systems. For system which are already on the fuller side and neutral, you are better off with other OS.

 

Try resetting the Bios to "Load Optimized defaults". Disabling hyper-threading and Turbo and slowly go from there. I would also advice either AudioLinux or Windows for 10th gen and above Intel proc.

[Dev]

1 hour ago, MarcelNL said:

7 cores 15 threads, is that correct? Odd numbers? Should you not see 10?

 

No, nothing really odd. Its actually 8 cores and 16 threads which is exactly what i7-10700k should be !

[Dev]

28 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

Thank you for the post. Can I ask what clock speed have you set? 
 

I’m now using Intel i9 10900k. I had to restrict to 8 cores, no matter if frequency was set at 3.5ghz or 5.3ghz it would not work on 10 cores. Doesn’t get past boot. 
 

Currently CPU is fully open on turbo 5.3ghz. Boots fine with 8 cores. 
 

I’m using 10a LPS to power it. 
 

My temps are 45-48c like yours. @ 5.3ghz. 
 

41c @ 3.7ghz

 

much higher than my i9 9900k. @ 5.0ghz idle was around 37c. 
 

What doesn’t help is the XII Extreme MB has a heatsink close to cpu, its bit higher than previous MB. As a result the H5 copper pipes just fit but are touching the MB heatsink. 
 

No listening tests as yet. Just powered it up, wait few days and will revert back. 

what software/OS are you running ? I too use i9-10900k with a dedicated SJ 10A rail and it works fine with AudioLinux 2.0 and Win 10Pro but NOT Euphony. With Euphony I had all sorts of problems. If you are using Euphony, try disabling Hyperthreading in order to use 10 cores. 

[Dev]

3 hours ago, ASRMichael said:

Hi

 

I’m using Euphony worked no problems. Using onboard LAN didn’t work but I use JCAT net anyway. 
 

I’m just glad back up & running. So I’ll try 10 cores again in few weeks. 
 

Actually playing music for a while (no upsampling) my temps are 65c at 5.3ghz. What are yours? 

 

46-48C

[Dev]

13 minutes ago, lmitche said:

The good news is that these z590 boards include the return of dual M.2 direct to CPU slots that went entirely missing with the z490 series.

 

Yes, that's a good part but there is a catch - the M.2 direct will only work with 11th gen proc. You are out of luck with 10th gen. They were only able to include it in Z590 because the pcie lanes in 11th gen has increased from 16 to 20 - so a combination of 1x16+1x4, 2x8+1x4, 1x8+3x4 works perfectly. The 10th gen also allowed 1x16, 2x8, 1x8+2x4 but many Bios didn't allow the required bifurcation, at least not in my Asus ROG Maximus. It would be interesting to see if Asus allowed the 3x4 combination in their Z590 mobo.

[Dev]

5 hours ago, Darryl R said:

 

For anyone using the ROG Maximus, will the HDPlex heatpipes clear that VRM heatsink?

 

I use ROG Maximus X11 Hero and the heat pipe just touches the VRM heat sink. I thought of bending the pipes a bit to just pass it over but did not finally do it.

 

3 hours ago, ASRMichael said:

Hi, yes just, touching MB heatsink. But believe HDPlex are new version with cooler 3mm higher. Which will be 3mm clearance from pipes to MB heatsink. Just ask for new version when ordering HDPlex case. 
 

I’m using XII Extreme, the previous X1 Formula fits fine. 

 

That's good news. I have to find a way to know if I have a newer heatsink or not. Will need to check with Lary.

[Dev]

5 hours ago, lmitche said:

Hi Dev,

 

Just to be clear, here is what the specs say:

 

Intel®11th &10th Gen Processors*

M.2_1 slot (Key M), type 2242/2260/2280/22110

- Only Intel® 11th Core™ processors support PCIe 4.0 x4 mode, this slot will be disabled for other CPUs

M.2_2 slot (Key M), type 2242/2260/2280/22110

- Intel® 11th processors support PCIe 4.0 x4 mode

- Intel® 10th processors support PCIe 3.0 x4 mode

So one M.2 slot is supported with the 10th gen, and two M.2slots with the 11th gen.

 

 

Lary, the spec is confusing - on one hand it says M.2_1 slot will be disabled for "other CPUs" (which is what I suspected) and on the other hand it says 10th gen support for PCIe 3.0 x4 mode. The 10th gen anyway doesn't support PCIe 4.0, so the link will automatically be negotiated to 3.0 speed if the x4 slot is enabled. The problem is if that M.2_1 lane is enabled for 10th gen, the other direct CPU lanes has to be bifurcated properly. In other words, any GPU card with x16 cannot work in tandem and you are only left with x8 + x4. I haven't gone through the manual to confirm this, however if it is supported its definitely a welcome for us audio enthusiasts.

 

I just now read a user comment which states that M.2_1 is disabled for 10th gen.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R39IJB5WNR3O2M/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B08T6BHQC8

[Dev]

10 hours ago, lmitche said:

You are right, the motherboard specs are confusing.

 

Yes, x8 +x4  is correct. The 10th gen has three PCIE configurations for 16 lanes - 1x16, 2x8, 1x8+2x4.

 

On Asus ROG z490 boards, only 1x16 and 2x8 are allowed. Even if the CPU allowed, it is handicapped by Asus' AMI Bios.

 

 

10 hours ago, lmitche said:

With the 10th generation Intel processors, I guess for a gaming machine where 1 or 2 GPU cards were required at x16, or x8 + x8, the two PCH based M.2 slots are to be used instead.

 

Well, I don't care about the GPU and I don't up-sample. If I get a x4 (USB Card) + x8 (bifurcated to x4 + x4 for 2 x M.2 drives using Supermicro dual adapter) + x4 (M.2 for OS), I would be content with all the critical data path direct to CPU. Even if the above configuration is not limited from PCIe bandwidth on the root ports, it still wasn't possible with Z490 + 10th Gen.  It looks like the only way now to achieve this is to move up with Z590 + 11th Gen.  Unfortunately, the ROG series are specifically targeted towards the Gamers and not audiophiles where a x8 or x16 GPU is a must configuration. So all these flexibility may still be limited by the Bios implementation. I need to get my hands on the combo 😬

[Dev]

20 minutes ago, Exocer said:

 

In other news, I am excited to share that the new Taiko DC-ATX module has arrived.

I am feeding it the 19V input of the PH SR7T the same exact way I did with the HDPlex 800W DC-ATX.

 

Connected this way using Mundorf Silver Gold 15.5awg wire with additional cotton sleeve:

 

Pin 1 for +3.3v 

Pin 3 for Ground

Pin 4 for +5v

Pin 5 for Ground

Pin 6 for +5v

Pin 8 for PWR-OK

Pin 9 for +5Vsb

Pin 10 for +12v

Pin 16 for PWR-On

 

The long-term plan is to get more of these wires connected to see if this will further improve performance but this is sounding wonderful as is. I would think 15.5awg solid core wire would probably be as good or better than the crappy relatively thin stranded wire in most basic ATX cables for transferring adequate current.

 

Not sure if break-in is complete after just two days but it is sounding very good and improving 2 days in.

 

Will report back with my findings after about a week but so far this has been a very good purchase!

 

Many thanks to @Nenon and Emile.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nice. Which motherboard are you using to power it and what wiring were you using with the hdplex ?

 

Btw, the Mundrof takes a very very long time to break-in due to the teflon. At least 300 hrs or even more. Keep playing music 24x7. 

 

 

[Dev]

Welcome @Jay

 

2 hours ago, JayM said:

That brings me to the reason why I’ve decided to introduce myself in this thread.  Until now we’ve only shipped a very limited amount of DC DC-ATX’s for testing.  If our supplier delivers some of the last needed components for the DC DC-ATX as scheduled, we will be able to ship all existing (paid) pre-orders on the 30th of April. 

 

Was there any announcements for pre-ordering ? I did sign-up but have not received anything to pay for it. Maybe I have missed it.

[Dev]

1 hour ago, Nenon said:

Shipping cost for the Taiko ATX is a flat rate of 30 EUR to anywhere in the world. I suggest you get one as soon as you can as supply shortages may impact future batches. 

 

There will also be a transformer that Taiko would provide with the case. Perhaps the transformer can be packaged with the chassis. 

 

@Nenon I am under the impression that the transformer should be available for sale independent of the chassis. I should be able to buy the DC DC-ATX along with the transformer. Is that not the case ?

 

On a different note, now that the DC DC-ATX is close to shipping, should we start finalizing the unregulated PSU parts ? Maybe a group buy scheme ?

[Dev]

15 minutes ago, Marcin_gps said:

Will be announced during the launch with all the details and pictures in the final enclosure. 

 

Regards, 

Marcin

 

@Marcin_gpswhat are the specs ? what kind of servers are you using to test this currently ? I am curious if you have plans to test with high power cpu with turbo boost, like an i9 K version ? 

[Dev]

2 minutes ago, bit01 said:

I glanced over at the PLITRON website, as it has been a while - oh dear!

 

quote:

 

We are excited to communicate that our company name changed from Plitron Manufacturing Inc., effective April 2021 to Noratel Canada Inc.

 

 

I hope (pray) that is good news. Most of my past DIY power supply for audio amps used a Plitron transformer! They made some truly excellent ones.

 

b.

 

 

Plitron, Noratel and Talema are some of the large manufacturers of audio transformers.

[Dev]

The Taiko ATX will actually shine when powering the CPU due to its dynamic power demands and its designed around that. The motherboard has fairly a constant load most of the time. I don't think there is much to be had leaving the CPU un-powered through the Taiko ATX.

[Dev]

9 minutes ago, mrkoven said:

Does anyone how to fit the 800W DC-ATX in the H5 Gen 2 case? 

 

Drill or tap 4 m3 holes. The existing holes are not compatible with 800w. 

[Dev]

Taiko is action 😄

 

[Dev]

Just now, ASRMichael said:

Early opinion? 

 

Got the package only couple of minutes back. It was fairly straightforward to replace the Hdplex 800w in my current system. Just got one song to play before I had to leave the system. With what I heard, it sounded a bit more relaxed "I think". I wasn't expecting this since the CPU is not powered by Taiko at this time. Hdplex has a very slight buzz with PS_ON, no buzz with Taiko.

 

More to follow.... 

[Dev]

7 minutes ago, Darryl R said:

How are you securing that? 

 

 

I tapped 3xM3 and used an existing one for the 4th.

[Dev]

Doubled sided tape also works. I know some who has been using it for a while now but I rather prefer to mount it straight to the chassis for better heat dissipation as well. I have been running the server with Taiko for couple of hrs now and it does get warm (not hot) and mounting it to the bottom helps a bit. We also have to note that too much heat on the bottom plate of the hdplex chassis, which is quiet thin, is also not good since this might affect the motherboard performance. I was initially thinking of applying some thermal paste to the copper heat plate but then rejected it. The best way to mount it would be vertically on the back of the front panel in the h5 case but you have to get a bit creative with this.

[Dev]

So the Taiko DC-ATX has been running continuously over a day and it has made a substantial improvement in my system. The level of realism has increased many folds.

 

 

My sole purpose of getting the Taiko was to power the CPU and based on what I have read so far, it seemed that it would really shine with high power devices but the motherboard was indeed an eye opener. Never thought powering the motherboard (Asus ROG) to be as critical as powering the CPU. I suspect that clean and low ripple noise power to the chipset, mainboard clocks and vrm is helping immensely. I had a similar experience when decoupling the CPU power with an exclusive 12V high current rail from the motherboard ATX rail.

 

The Asus motherboard consumes around 32watts and currently the Taiko is been powered with a  SJ dc3 diy 19v/5A rail. My hunch is the better your motherboard, the better it's outcome. I don't have a 16-48v high current rail to feed the Taiko and power the CPU alongside and hence can't wait to build a high current unregulated LPS - that would real exciting. Anyway, it will continue break-in and will report back if things change.

 

 

There are very few occasions when we buy stuff and feel that its totally worth the admission cost - this is probably one of them, at least in my system. A step towards the right direction.