Building a DIY Music Server

[Antanas]

31 minutes ago, MarcelNL said:

The CPU has two memory lanes, so I'd opt for 2 sticks, the MB manual will tell you which ones to best populate. 

Thenks, Marcel

[Kuba7777]

Finished building a PC, ASUS WS C621E SAGE motherboard and Intel Xeon Silver 4210. I have already made the first attempt to run it and fortunately everything is fine. That is, both processors and 12 ECC Apacer RAM. Today, installing passive cooling and tomorrow, installing the system and programs. I have been using Euphony for two years, but now I want to use Windows instead. Then a benchmark with Euphony. Recently, I have installed several different Windows systems, versions: Windows Server 2022, Windows LTSC Enterprise 2021, Windows Tiny 11 Core and Windows 11 23H2 Ultralight "Micro 11".
I got the fewest processes on Windows Ultralight. 40 processes launched after installing the following programs: Roon, HQPlayer, Process Lasso and ASIO DAC Gryphon drivers. I know that an important element is to properly configure the Process Lasso program. Unfortunately, I have no experience with this program and I don't really know which processes and with what priority to assign to particular processors and cores. I have a request, maybe some of you have already done it and would like to share your knowledge. Thank you.

[NewOldman]

my suggestion is to try
Windows 2012R2 or Srv 2016 an Windows LTSB 2016, 
as thees has a minimum of "windows telemetry and bloatware"
and the most importet thing on the at NOT to run windows update !

 

Best Ever Windows Version for Audiophile??? - Computer Audio - JPLAY - hi-end audio player for Windows

[Kuba7777]

Windows 11 Ultralight has automatic updating and Defender already disabled. There are also no Windows applications or unnecessary services. It is a minimalist system, 1.6 GB ISO image

[Lebouwsky]

Over the years I’ve tryed Windows server 12, 16, 22 (always with GUI), Windows 10 and 10LTSC, all optimized, of which the latter I still have on a separate partition and occasionaly use for YouTube performances and to compare it with my main OS, which is Euphony with Stylus.
 

Even freshly installed, none of the Windows OS comes even close to Euphony (in my system to my ears of course). But what always bothered me to most of Windows was that the sound always seemed to degrade over time, no matter what I did. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love Windows to work for me, because of the fine interfase of the Qobuz app.

 

[Johnseye]

On 1/28/2024 at 1:21 PM, Exocer said:

The guide referenced in @BCRich's post. He is the one who sent it to me. (I had totally forgotten it exists).

 

"Did you try Euphony on your Xeon server?" Yes and it worked without a hitch. The motherboard is very new so I'll refrain from making any definitive statement. Eupony sounds really good with the Xeon server. The SOTM build wasn't too far behind with Euphony. I think the SOTM "may" have a slight edge in clarity but that may be because:

1. I am using the SOTM TX-USBHubin, reclocked.

2. The SOTM TX-USBX10G feeds the TX-usbhubin via DIY cable, also relocked.

 

Both are reclocked by the SCLK-EX which sync with a Mutec Ref10. SCLK-EX is powered by an SJ DC4, as are the TX-USBHubin and TX-USBX10G. Also, that build uses the Femto NVME, also DC4 powered.

 

The Dual xeon build uses the JCAT USB XE + Master OCXO but no other specialty clocks.

 

Both were powered by the same exact ULPS V3 + Taiko DC-ATX.

 

With Euphony, i'll have to revisit listening with the SOTM board but I remember initially not being too impressed with the dual CPU build vs the SOTM early on. Several days in, I texted @Nenon saying "oh, ok I think i'm starting to get the fuss" because the Xeon build started settling in a bit and sounding better than before. I want to give this comparison a very thorough observation and in order to do that i'll have to re-insert the SOTM SMB Q370 and listen again after the Xeon build fully settles in. Let's give that a few weeks.

 

The SOTM is REALLY good and sounds much closer than you would expect given the size differences of the board, the 1 vs 2 cpus. My guess is the results will be depenedent upon the clock yo use for synching the SCLK-EX with has a tremendous effect there. The OCK-1 vs Ref10 feeding the SCLk-ex could convince just about any clock naysayer that clocks CAN and DO have an affect on what you hear.

 

Give me a few weeks and I promise i'll have more feedback on the SOTM vs Dual Xeon comparison with Euphony. Unfortunately I will not have the ability to conduct a complete apples to apples comparison with some fundamental changes (USB card differences, dual reclocked USB layers on the SOTM build) but I suspect it will be very educational info to have. As for people being worried about the older i9 CPU, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. It is becoming next to impossible to find new in box CPUs for the SMB Q370 though, which is unfortunate.

 

Euphony with the Xeon build sounds good. Windows 10 E LTSC 2021 / Tweaked Roon sounds better than Eupony on the Xeon and its not close.

 

 

 

 

 

Nenon's ULPS he was using prior to buying his Extreme is powering my dual Xeon Sage board.  I did add a Mundorf AG cap and replaced the chokes with the Martin Mug's.  Hynes SR7 DRs powering everything else.  I'm using 2 sCLK-EX's with the Mutec Ref10.  A SOtM NIC with the Sage, SOtM's switch and tX-USBultra, all connected to the sCLK's.  I have an endpoint, which is a SOtM modified NUC with all its clocks being tapped from the sCLK.  I can't get my JCAT USB XE to work properly with my Holo May DAC so if I want to go direct from Sage to DAC I need to use the board's USB port.  I'm going to buy the new SOtM USB card and see if that works with the May.  If it does I'll have one of my sCLK's changed to 20MHz.

 

Not too different from yours.  I'm still a strong believer in the mastered sCLK as you can see.  I also prefer the sound of it going through the tX-USBultra and modded NUC endpoint vs direct from the Sage USB.  It's much less fatiguing.  We'll see if that changes with the new SOtM USB card. I'd love for it to be equal or better.  I had bought the Sage before the SOtM motherboard came out or I probably would have gone that route.  That's why I'm very curious to know how yours compares.

 

To my ears Windows LTSC sounded muddy compared to Euphony or Audiolinux. I tuned everything with as much as I could find out about how the Extreme was configured.  I used Process Lasso.  Still not as good.  One thing I still haven't learned is what the Extreme's BIOS settings are.  If anyone knows please PM me.

 

3 hours ago, Lebouwsky said:

Over the years I’ve tryed Windows server 12, 16, 22 (always with GUI), Windows 10 and 10LTSC, all optimized, of which the latter I still have on a separate partition and occasionaly use for YouTube performances and to compare it with my main OS, which is Euphony with Stylus.
 

Even freshly installed, none of the Windows OS comes even close to Euphony (in my system to my ears of course). But what always bothered me to most of Windows was that the sound always seemed to degrade over time, no matter what I did. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love Windows to work for me, because of the fine interfase of the Qobuz app.

 

 

This has been my experience as well.  I've spent the past couple months listening with Audiolinux and Roon.  It has it's own sound that is very close to Euphony with Roon.  Prior I had been listening to Euphony with Stylus for a couple years. Version 4 made me want to experiment again.  Version 4 with Stylus has a bit of a bloom to it.  It's a wider and deeper soundstage, but the instruments blur a little.  Euphony with Roon tightens them up a bit, not to mention the Roon interface vs Stylus is worlds apart.  Everything I do on any platform is with HQPlayer upsampling to PCM 1536kHz

 

[Exocer]

29 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

Nenon's ULPS he was using prior to buying his Extreme is powering my dual Xeon Sage board.  I did add a Mundorf AG cap and replaced the chokes with the Martin Mug's.  Hynes SR7 DRs powering everything else.  I'm using 2 sCLK-EX's with the Mutec Ref10.  A SOtM NIC with the Sage, SOtM's switch and tX-USBultra, all connected to the sCLK's.  I have an endpoint, which is a SOtM modified NUC with all its clocks being tapped from the sCLK.  I can't get my JCAT USB XE to work properly with my Holo May DAC so if I want to go direct from Sage to DAC I need to use the board's USB port.  I'm going to buy the new SOtM USB card and see if that works with the May.  If it does I'll have one of my sCLK's changed to 20MHz.

 

Not too different from yours.  I'm still a strong believer in the mastered sCLK as you can see.  I also prefer the sound of it going through the tX-USBultra and modded NUC endpoint vs direct from the Sage USB.  It's much less fatiguing.  We'll see if that changes with the new SOtM USB card. I'd love for it to be equal or better.  I had bought the Sage before the SOtM motherboard came out or I probably would have gone that route.  That's why I'm very curious to know how yours compares.

 

To my ears Windows LTSC sounded muddy compared to Euphony or Audiolinux. I tuned everything with as much as I could find out about how the Extreme was configured.  I used Process Lasso.  Still not as good.  One thing I still haven't learned is what the Extreme's BIOS settings are.  If anyone knows please PM me.

Very similar indeed! Where to begin.

 

So, Windows 10 LTSC bone stock iso with Roon Server on the DIY Extreme (let’s call it DE moving forward) extracted much more sound quality than Euphony on the same hardware (in my system). There is much more information, clarity, and dynamics. The dynamic range has actually shocked me several times with this setup. Soundstage size is bigger, there is nothing muddy about the presentation vs Euphony on this hw or the SOTM hardware. My guess is although motherboard USB on the Asus sage sounds good, it still goes through PCH, and with a system as transparent as yours makes it shortcomings more evident. I really wish the jcat worked with your May. The SOTM TX-USBX10G is absolutely killer too. I haven’t tried it in the sage build because I’m limited on space and mounting the sclk-ex in the HDPlex will be impossible. While I figure out my chassis situation I’ll keep the sclk-ex, Tx-USBHubin in a safe place within their existing build. I had to send the NIC from that build back to Adrian of Afterdark for some modifications/upgrades, so I won’t get to listen to the SOTM build again in its full glory until I get that card back. It can be a while.

In the interim, I am trying the Windows 11 @Kuba7777 brought to my attention. I am legitimately amazed at how lean it is compared to Windows 10 LTSC, which had a 12gb windows for. Windows 11 ultralight is MUCH smaller and I’ve had zero compatibility issues. So far, I like what I hear, but I also swapped out the QSA power cable I was using in my preamp because I promised someone I’d let them try it out… so I’ll need to switch back to Windows 10 LTSC to make another proper comparison. Luckily I have two Intel 900P drives, so swapping between each setup will be super easy.

 

Im shocked Windows didn’t beat Euphony on this hardware for you. It’s a lot better over here. I wonder what could be going on…the SOTM TX-USBX10G might be exactly what you need to get around the limitations of onboard usb if that is holding you back.

[seeteeyou]

Finally found a little something that managed to beat Roon to the punch

 

https://archimago.blogspot.com/2023/12/do-bit-perfect-digital-sources-affect.html?showComment=1701603544262#c3288308245187547991

Quote

2) Symfonium is the most beautiful music player I've seen so far, even more than Roon, and has a great UPNP/DLNA protocol, gapless if the streamer on the other end is also gapless. Also, it works very well with external servers - I've tried all of them and Jellyfin is the best, by far - you can put it on a NAS or a Windows PC and control everything trough your phone with this app.

 

And then this one also seemed to be interesting

 

https://forums.slimdevices.com/forum/user-forums/mysqueezebox-com/1670427-bubbleupnp-tidal-into-lms-upnp-renderer-sounds-better-compared-to-tidal-in-lms?p=1671496#post1671496

Quote

I was a long time user of BubbleUPnP with JPLAY FEMTO, always turned on Eventing. Now I use LMS because it sounds more musical compared to JPLAY FEMTO.

 

---

 

Here's the registry location where a list of CBS (Component Based Servicing) packages are listed

 

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Component Based Servicing\Packages]

 

I wouldn't really install it myself due to security-related reasons, therefore I only extracted the registry file from Windows X-Lite 'Atomic 11' v2 by FBConan (1.1GB ISO image)

 

C:\Windows\System32\config\SOFTWARE

 

There were 770 CBS packages

 

https://pastebin.com/HiGge92c

 

Here's the latest version of Windows Validation OS

 

https://software-static.download.prss.microsoft.com/dbazure/988969d5-f34g-4e03-ac9d-1f9786c66749/22621.1702.230501-1115.ni_release_svc_prod1_amd64fre_en-us_VALIDATIONOS.iso

 

I was getting 528 CBS packages

 

https://pastebin.com/ymeJppPC

 

Finally I did the same thing for Win11PE as well

 

https://download.microsoft.com/download/5/2/5/525dcde0-c7b8-487a-894d-0952775a78c7/adkwinpeaddons/Installers/a6296c5a6eec9ca02b431ed0461b952d.cab

 

430 CBS packages were found

 

https://pastebin.com/ckMANLny

 

IMHO all of them would be considered a far cry from any kinda "full blown" flavors of Windows out there.

 

---

 

For instance, this particular 3.5GB ISO image (Windows Server Annual Channel for Containers) should be relatively small when compared to anything else

 

https://software-static.download.prss.microsoft.com/dbazure/888969d5-f34g-4e03-ac9d-1f9786c66749/25398.469.231004-1141.zn_release_svc_refresh_SERVERAZURESTACKHCICOR_OEMRET_x64FRE_en-us.iso

 

Grand total was 2,991 CBS packages and Pastebin actually told me that exceeded the maximum paste size of 512KB, therefore I had to try a different site instead

 

https://sharetext.me/bjtwvstdxu

[MarcelNL]

I'm for sure going to compare a few builds of W10/W11 to Daphile (which is based on LMS)....I still secretly hope for a public release of Taiko's XDMI-NMS for dual Xeon clone builds as the player program has more than a small impact on the resulting sound (aside from BIOS and OS settings and tweaks)

[Nenon]

This needed sharing:

 

 

[MarcelNL]

they do interesting stuff at Alpha Audio

[Kuba7777]

Project finished. Now install the system, programs and configuration

[NewOldman]

Nice build

Where did you buy the chassis with passive cooling ?

[Tatomek7]

On 2/5/2024 at 10:22 PM, Lebouwsky said:

Even freshly installed, none of the Windows OS comes even close to Euphony

I think preference between Euphony and Windows depends on hardware configuration. Currently I'm in the Win camp. Some time ago I was doing comparisons between Win LTSC and Euphony and I preferred Win LTSC, then I switched to Win 10, but when the Win 10 disk stopped working, I went back to Euphony and have been listening to it for the last 6 months.

 

Just 2 days ago I switched back to Windows 10. Euphony + Roon was on leaner side. Win 10 + Roon offers fuller sound with more profound bass, but to be honest the OS disks were different. Euphony/Roon was installed on Intel Optane 900p and Win + Process Lasso + Audiophile Optimizer + Roon was installed on Jcat M2 Femto SSD. Unfortunately my PCIE NVME adapter stopped to work, so M2 disk was installed directly on the SAGE 621 MB. M2 powered from MB sounded too rough, bass was too “squared”. With external power ( Sean Jacobs ARC6 DC3 and ordinary DC wire ) sound was softer and bass was more rounded. In fact, w/o external DC power I would prefer Euphony, as bass from M2 disk was too boomy to my taste.

 

Importantly, Windows consumes more power and my processors reaches a higher temperature. Euphony is much better in this respect.

I'm waiting for the M2 PCIE adapter to arrive, so the comparison will be more fair.

[Tatomek7]

1 hour ago, Kuba7777 said:

Project finished

What temperatures you reach with this cooling? Unfortunately my passive cooling should work better.

 

[MarcelNL]

5 minutes ago, Tatomek7 said:

I think preference between Euphony and Windows depends on hardware configuration. Currently I'm in the Win camp. Some time ago I was doing comparisons between Win LTSC and Euphony and I preferred Win LTSC, then I switched to Win 10, but when the Win 10 disk stopped working, I went back to Euphony and have been listening to it for the last 6 months.

 

Just 2 days ago I switched back to Windows 10. Euphony + Roon was on leaner side. Win 10 + Roon offers fuller sound with more profound bass, but to be honest the OS disks were different. Euphony/Roon was installed on Intel Optane 900p and Win + Process Lasso + Audiophile Optimizer + Roon was installed on Jcat M2 Femto SSD. Unfortunately my PCIE NVME adapter stopped to work, so M2 disk was installed directly on the SAGE 621 MB. M2 powered from MB sounded too rough, bass was too “squared”. With external power ( Sean Jacobs ARC6 DC3 and ordinary DC wire ) sound was softer and bass was more rounded. In fact, w/o external DC power I would prefer Euphony, as bass from M2 disk was too boomy to my taste.

 

Importantly, Windows consumes more power and my processors reaches a higher temperature. Euphony is much better in this respect.

I'm waiting for the M2 PCIE adapter to arrive, so the comparison will be more fair.

 

It's not just external power you are hearing in the mix, the NVME slot on the sage MB is connected via a controller, the PCIe adapter straight to the CPU

I bought two identical new NVME SSD sticks to compare OS in a relatively quick way....let the games begin...

[Kuba7777]

3 hours ago, Tatomek7 said:

Jakie temperatury osiągasz dzięki temu chłodzeniu? Niestety moje pasywne chłodzenie powinno działać lepiej.

 

After a few hours of listening, the temperature ranges from 42-48 degrees. System Windows + ROON.

The computer is placed in a shelf and unfortunately has poor ventilation there

[Kuba7777]

3 hours ago, NewOldman said:

Niezła konstrukcja

Gdzie kupiłeś obudowę z pasywnym 

Thank you, the housing was purchased on Aliexpress. However, you have to adjust it yourself. This means holes for mounting the motherboard, the entire back panel, the color was also silver, so powder coating. All copper elements are also self-made.

[NewOldman]

6 hours ago, MarcelNL said:

they do interesting stuff at Alpha Audio

who criticized Femto Nvme ssd ?

"

"Unfortunately totally useless"

 

Zzyzx Revelation Femto SSD - bit by bit? - Alpha Audio (alpha-audio.net)

[MarcelNL]

37 minutes ago, NewOldman said:

who criticized Femto Nvme ssd ?

"

"Unfortunately totally useless"

 

Zzyzx Revelation Femto SSD - bit by bit? - Alpha Audio (alpha-audio.net)

that they do interesting stuff does not mean we have to agree with all conclusions...they never put the OS on the femto drive

[Nenon]

I recently managed to complete the DIY server that I've been trying to build for a friend since June 2022. I thought that putting the DIY chassis on the floor in the middle of my music room will make me work on this sooner. But over time I just got used to keeping those parts on the floor and walking around them. It took me about 18 months to complete :(. I am not proud of this and felt nothing short of embarrassed. 

 

This was the build I was planning to document and post detailed instruction on everything I have done. And perhaps this was one of the reasons why I kept postponing that work. But let's face it - the reality is with my Taiko Extreme server, Taiko USB, NIC, Switch, Router, DC Distributor, and XDMS NSM software my motivation to work on this DIY server was super low. I even had regrets that I commited to do this build, but I knew I had to do it. 

 

Eventually I realized I will never get this done, unless I take some shortcuts and make it easier for me. I had an Optane 900p PCIe card that was a backup (clone) of my previous DIY Windows LTSC installation. I realized I would not need that and gave it to my friend. So rather than starting from a fresh OS and documenting every step of the way I reused what I had done before and just applied new software licenses. I also applied a few new things that I've learned from Taiko, such as their network card installation script. 

 

The owner of that server and I independently compared Euphony to Windows as I had both available. He did it in his system. And I did it in my system. Both of us prefered Roon on Windows than Stylus on Euphony on this particular hardware.

I would not say that was my experience previously with other hardware - I kind of had a preference for Euphony on previous DIY servers, but with the dual Xeon / SAGE build I have a strong preference for Windows.

 

I've heard Euphony v4 on multiple occasions in other systems. V4 was a clear step up from the versions I've used previously, and I was very curious how it would compare to a well tweaked Windows installation on this hardware. Windows was the better sounding installation in both of our systems, at least on this hardware. But don't get me wrong - I still think Euphony is one of the best options for other DIY server types! However, there are things we can do on Windows that we can't do on Linux. One of them is the ASIO USB driver. 

[SK8]

Thanks Nenon. I would be interested in the BIOS setting tweaks you made to the DIY server, especially on those memory timings. 

 

Would you have a chance to try Windows PE or Tiny 11?

[NewOldman]

For those who want o slim down/optimize windows,

I would recommend to learn this program Very useful

 

NTLite

 

has used it for many years for that

[MarcelNL]

doesn't Euphony use ALSA and a real time kernel? Always read (never tested) that Linux in principle has lower latency than Windows.

[Exocer]

On 2/5/2024 at 8:52 PM, Exocer said:

In the interim, I am trying the Windows 11 @Kuba7777 brought to my attention. I am legitimately amazed at how lean it is compared to Windows 10 LTSC, which had a 12gb windows for. Windows 11 ultralight is MUCH smaller and I’ve had zero compatibility issues. So far, I like what I hear, but I also swapped out the QSA power cable I was using in my preamp because I promised someone I’d let them try it out… so I’ll need to switch back to Windows 10 LTSC to make another proper comparison. Luckily I have two Intel 900P drives, so swapping between each setup will be super easy.

Brief update:

 

The 12gb (installed) Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC - en-us_windows_10_enterprise_ltsc_2021_x64_dvd_d289cf96 (OS Build 19044.3930)

 

Sounds better, to me, in my system, than Windows 11 Ultralight - https://windowsxlite.com/divinity/

 

Win11 Ultralight sounds good but Win10 LTSC has better prat and a more expansive soundstage. The highs are more extended with Win10 but also less fatiguing. Win10 is also more dynamic. I think i'll go ahead and try this next: https://windowsxlite.com/Micro10_x64_SE/

 

For me to trim Windows down this much with ntlite and end up with a functional bootable OS would take a very long time. 

 

Edit: The Win10 LTSC actually prompts for admin login, but i've configured Roon server and process lasso to run as a service so it can run headless and I can turn it on-off whenever I want without having to worry about BMC or having a monitor hooked up. The Win11 image above completely does away with the login prompt.