Building a DIY Music Server

[The Computer Audiophile]

9 minutes ago, dctom said:

 

do you think it will be ok with AMD Ryzen cpu?

I don’t see a reason why it wouldn’t be ok with an AMD Ryzen. 

[WC]

23 hours ago, rico25 said:

Good morning,
I have an AMD server with a 65W CPU and I had the same startup problem with the Hammond 159J and Taiko DC-ATX converter. I changed to Martin Mugs starter but the problem persisted 🙄
I had a 24 pin ATX on which there were only 23 pins connected, I connected the 24th and the PC started... unless it was my ULPS which heated up and was set up ... 😅

Appreciate the perspective! I’m able to boot from a different power source so I’m not thinking it’s the ATX cable. I’ll probably pull it to check though, just in case. 

[WC]

This is likely a long shot but figured I’d throw it out there before I placed an order with Taiko: does anyone have a 220,000 cap not currently in use they’d consider selling? 

[lwr]

 
I have an extra.  Sending PM.

[dctom]

On 12/5/2023 at 1:45 AM, JJSim said:

I am using this motherboard in my single processor build:

 

https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/motherboard/x12spm-ln4f

 

This motherboard has many advantages:

 

1) Server/enterprise grade quality

2) PCIe 4.0

3) All three PCIe slots are CPU direct

4) Accepts up to 3200Mhz memory

5) Has SFF-8654 SlimSAS connectors for CPU direct connection of U.2 SSD's (such as 900P/905P/P4800X/P5800X). This connection method has a side advantage of allowing these drives to be externally powered by a 12v source with the correct cables.

6) Has robust VRM design as it can power processors with up to 270W TDP

7) Has an on-board BMC controller for graphic output, eliminating the need for a dedicated graphics card

 

Thank you for the suggestion - not easily availeable in the uk, simlar boards are pretty expensive here.

[Gavin1977]

23 hours ago, dctom said:

 

Thank you for the suggestion - not easily availeable in the uk, simlar boards are pretty expensive here.

It is a nice board - could be imported, might even be cheaper?

[jean-michel6]

On 12/5/2023 at 2:45 AM, JJSim said:

I am using this motherboard in my single processor build:

 

https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/motherboard/x12spm-ln4f

 

This motherboard has many advantages:

 

1) Server/enterprise grade quality

2) PCIe 4.0

3) All three PCIe slots are CPU direct

4) Accepts up to 3200Mhz memory

5) Has SFF-8654 SlimSAS connectors for CPU direct connection of U.2 SSD's (such as 900P/905P/P4800X/P5800X). This connection method has a side advantage of allowing these drives to be externally powered by a 12v source with the correct cables.

6) Has robust VRM design as it can power processors with up to 270W TDP

7) Has an on-board BMC controller for graphic output, eliminating the need for a dedicated graphics card

Which processor do you use ? 
How is done the cooling ? 

[di-fi]

24 minutes ago, jean-michel6 said:

How is done the cooling ? 

Temperature	CPU thermal trip support PECI
FAN	5x 4-pin fan headers (up to 5 fans) System level control PWM fan speed control 5 fans with tachometer status monitoring Pulse Width Modulated (PWM) fan connectors

[jean-michel6]

1 minute ago, di-fi said:

Temperature	CPU thermal trip support PECI
FAN	5x 4-pin fan headers (up to 5 fans) System level control PWM fan speed control 5 fans with tachometer status monitoring Pulse Width Modulated (PWM) fan connectors

Thank for the reply , but I am looking for passive cooling , fan will be electrically noisy .

[JJSim]

15 hours ago, jean-michel6 said:

Which processor do you use ? 
How is done the cooling ? 

 

My server is not yet completed, but I am choosing between these three processors:

 

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/compare.html?productIds=215283,215277,215269

 

TDP's are 135W, 120W, and 105W respectively, so not an insignificant amount of power. Remember that TDP is the measure of power dissipation when all cores are under a complex load. I do not intend to upsample to high rate DSD, so any of these processors will be practically idling when in use and power consumption will be far lower than the rated TDP.

[jean-michel6]

1 hour ago, JJSim said:

 

My server is not yet completed, but I am choosing between these three processors:

 

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/compare.html?productIds=215283,215277,215269

 

TDP's are 135W, 120W, and 105W respectively, so not an insignificant amount of power. Remember that TDP is the measure of power dissipation when all cores are under a complex load. I do not intend to upsample to high rate DSD, so any of these processors will be practically idling when in use and power consumption will be far lower than the rated TDP.

Thank for the answer . 
 

How you will handle the cooling since this mb has a very specific cooling tower intended for use in server farm where they blow very cold air on it . G

[JJSim]

On 12/9/2023 at 5:22 PM, jean-michel6 said:

Thank for the answer . 
 

How you will handle the cooling since this mb has a very specific cooling tower intended for use in server farm where they blow very cold air on it . G

There are passive CPU coolers available for the LGA-4189 socket, but they are designed to have forced airflow moving over them. I did contact Taiko to see if they could make a heatpipe cooler for this socket and was told they would check into it, but I assume it's not something they are interested in.

 

I plan to try using this heatsink with no forced airflow to see if it is sufficient:

 

https://www.dynatron.co/product-page/n8

 

My hope is that setting the CPU to base frequency and possibly undervolting will lower power consumption to the point where this heatsink will be enough. As I mentioned prior, I do not intend to do heavy upsampling so the load placed on the processor will be very low.

[jean-michel6]

I went to see on the net and I have the same information as you .

I am afraid it is not sufficient with no air flow . Since it will be inside a box . This kind of mb is used in server farm where there is usually 4 degrés Celsius blown across the board .

 

At minimum I think that room temperature air need to be blown through this radiator.Usually cpu are at full speed during bios start up.

[seeteeyou]

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-249#post-682626

Quote

The Extreme draws around 60 watts or ~0.6A from a 110V line. That remark is just there to indicate an adequate powersupply can have a positive effect on ultimate sound quality.

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-260#post-687722

Quote

No that needs to be amended. The Extreme draws around 60 watts of continuous power, it can draw up to 320 watts but that is only very short term, like during the first 30 seconds or so after power on. It can also draw more if you perform realtime upsampling. This comment is meant to indicate that a “limited” AC supply can restrict apparant dynamics and scale of the performance.

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-879#post-877731

Quote

It uses about 60 watts idle, which can increase to 80 watts when playing music (depending on the software used). But when booting up it can draw up to 300 watts for short periods of time.

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-966#post-907900

Quote

An Extreme uses between 60 and 80 watts of power depending on the amount of processing it has to perform and which expansions are installed, the amount of internal storage etc. So we should calculate using the upper limit being 80 watts.

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-165#post-640513

Quote

We switched to the 4210 when it was released which "sounds" identical to the 4114. The 4214 does not have the same midrange contrast levels.

 

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/193384/intel-xeon-silver-4210-processor-13-75m-cache-2-20-ghz.html

Quote

85W

 

---

 

Basically we're talking about a pair of Xeon Silver 4210 here that should draw up to 320 watts during the first 30 seconds or so, then it's hovering anywhere between 60W and 80W afterwards.

 

Now that begs the question, could we design a "hybrid" approach of some sort by having both active + passive cooling inside the same music server?

 

https://www.corsair.com/us/en/p/case-fans/co-9050161-ww/sp120-elite-120mm-performance-pwm-fan-co-9050161-ww

https://www.corsair.com/us/en/p/case-fans/co-9050141-ww/af140-elite-high-performance-140mm-pwm-fluid-dynamic-bearing-fan-co-9050141-ww

Quote

Designed to support Zero RPM mode, AF ELITE fans eliminate fan noise by only spinning up when temperatures reach the threshold you've set using CORSAIR's iCUE software with a CORSAIR COMMANDER fan controller (sold separately).

 

And then we've got this software that's supposed to support whole bunch of fan controllers

 

https://github.com/liquidctl/liquidctl#supported-devices

 

Keep those fans turned on whenever we need to do so, then "Zero RPM" mode could kick in once everything has settled down.

 

---

 

As always it all depends on the room temperature as well as the cooling potential of the heat sink / pipe / chassis combo etc.

[JJSim]

Most desktop motherboards and CPU's are intended to have forced airflow cooling, so those of us building silent music servers are in the fringes. If asked, I anticipate that almost every motherboard and CPU manufacturer will say they do not recommend passively cooling their products.

 

The Dynatron heatsink I posted above isn't much different in terms of function and mechanics than the heatpipe coolers that some have DIY'd and that HDPlex and Taiko developed. The Dynatron heatsink has a copper vapor chamber base and copper heatpipes mounted in an aluminum fin stack. The main difference is the substrate the heatpipes are mounted to (aluminum wall in a Streacom/HDPlex/Taiko chassis vs aluminum fin stack with the Dynatron heatsink). With numerous small holes placed in the lid of the chassis, a certain amount of convective cooling can be achieved with warm air rising out of the chassis and cooler air being drawn through the sides and bottom of the chassis. This small amount of airflow may be sufficient to keep CPU temps down.

 

Of course this is all theoretical until I actually complete my server and experiment with passive cooling. I am not that worried if active cooling is needed, as there are advantages to active cooling and there are ways to mitigate the negative impacts.

[MarcelNL]

If you know the power rating for the heatsink you'll get an idea if it'll work, you definitely want cooler temperatures than what 'typical computer folks' are running. The audible difference between <40'C and >50'C is too large to be ignored

 

Problem I see with a hybrid approach (clever idea!) is that the electronics working in the background may well have an effect on sound as well, but that can be tested quite easily. I found the Hypex softstart module audible enough to get rid of it.

 

 

[seeteeyou]

Here's another take, about a year ago someone was building a new rig with Optane P5800X etc.

 

https://www.headphoneclub.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=756045&page=11#pid5574492

 

Then I saw that all cooling fans could be powered by an external PSU while everything could be turned off at the same time easily

 

https://www.headphoneclub.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=756045&authorid=37361

 

Currently this guy should be going for 40 bucks

 

https://www.amazon.com/Kasa-Smart-Power-Strip-TP-Link/dp/B07G95FFN3

https://www.kasasmart.com/us/products/smart-plugs/kasa-smart-wi-fi-power-strip-hs300

 

So far quite a few developers were actually working on the software to provide support for HS300

 

https://plugins.octoprint.org/plugins/tplinksmartplug/

https://github.com/jneilliii/OctoPrint-TPLinkSmartplug

https://community.openhab.org/t/tp-link-hs300/68617

https://github.com/openhab/openhab-addons/issues/5051

https://community.tp-link.com/en/smart-home/forum/topic/239364

https://community.home-assistant.io/t/hs300-support-sort-of/127785

https://community.home-assistant.io/t/wi-fi-power-strip-by-tp-link-hs300/68445

https://community.openhab.org/t/tp-link-binding-support-for-hs300-wi-fi-power-strip-request/74266

 

Therefore it's gotta be a piece of cake to turn off only one fan at a time, without having to install anything on the music server then?

 

---

 

Other than that, it's fairly interesting to see the power consumption of such a beast

 

https://www.amd.com/en/products/cpu/amd-ryzen-threadripper-7980x

Quote

Default TDP: 350W

 

https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/power-analysis-amd-ryzen-threadripper-7000/

 

Whenever it's "just" running Adobe Photoshop, the average power consumption turned out to be quite a bit less than 50% of its 350W default TDP.

 

If we weren't upsampling anything on the fly at all, CPU consumption should get even lower since lossless compression (e.g. FLAC / WavPack etc.) wouldn't be such a big deal.

 

As long as we're staying away from Roon, the only thing to worry about should be stuff like Windows 10 / 11 phoning home with their "telemetry" garbage etc.

[seeteeyou]

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/introducing-olympus-olympus-i-o-a-new-perspective-on-modern-music-playback.37939/

Quote

We are introducing a new server model today, called the Olympus. Hierarchically it positions itself above the Extreme. It does provide quite a different music experience then the Extreme, or any other server I've heard for that matter. Conventional audiophile descriptions as sound staging, dynamics, colour palette, etc, fall short to describe this difference. It does not sound digital or analog, I would be inclined to describe it as coming closer to the intended (or unintended) performance of the recording engineer.

 

Maybe it's more likely to have their own custom-made motherboard this time?

 

1st / 2nd Gen Xeon Scalable + WS C621E SAGE might be considered a bit long in the tooth as we're approaching 2024, while the latest products from both AMD and Intel would naturally result in better latency if they're compared to previous generations.

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/qsa-lanedri-series.36078/page-25#post-918081

Quote

The Sean Jacob's LPS we employ is a QSA Lanedri series prototype of the DC4AR6. The effects of this prototype are truly mind-blowing, particularly in its ability to reduce the noise floor and, consequently, enhance transparency, instrument separation, clarity, and soundstage. However, it's important to note that this product isn't commercially available. We are actively working on various tracks to launch the official QSA Lanedri Series LPS, which is planned for release in the middle of next year.

 

Even though we might get a little help from that kinda flagship PSU mentioned above, it's hard to tell if any DIY products were even comparable to the performance of Olympus + Olympus I/O.

[MarcelNL]

14 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/introducing-olympus-olympus-i-o-a-new-perspective-on-modern-music-playback.37939/

 

Maybe it's more likely to have their own custom-made motherboard this time?

 

1st / 2nd Gen Xeon Scalable + WS C621E SAGE might be considered a bit long in the tooth as we're approaching 2024, while the latest products from both AMD and Intel would naturally result in better latency if they're compared to previous generations.

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/qsa-lanedri-series.36078/page-25#post-918081

 

Even though we might get a little help from that kinda flagship PSU mentioned above, it's hard to tell if any DIY products were even comparable to the performance of Olympus + Olympus I/O.

even more so sonce nobody has heard the thing...

 

I recal Taiko tinkered with DIY design MB but left that track for the C621 sage platform for sound quality, I'd be highly surprised if they now made their own MB but we'll see.

 

 

[Cazzesman]

 

 

 

Hiho you lot,

 

Best wishes for the holiday period over Xmas and NY. 

 

I had some Computer fun recently.   I just wondered if anyone could hazard a guess as to how the PC appeared to remedy itself, kind of.       It ended well but initially it had me beat.    

 

My DIY, purpose built i9 music PC runs on Windows Server 2019 and is the Standard version in Evaluation mode.  The Eval goes for 3 years and every 6 months you can re-arm it with a simple Command prompt.    This re-arm would be number 3 of 6.  I have never had a re-arm failure using the Server Evals, including my previous 2012 version.    

 

This time....'Re-Arm failed.'     I Googled troubleshooting.  After a few hours without success, I just decided to go ahead and buy a Product Key to fully activate the OS.    I found one online that Trust-Pilot said was Legit and trustworthy.    Paid my $30 (US) for a legit OEM Key (?) and got the Key within 5 minutes via email.

 

Followed the install instructions via the Command Prompt and of course it failed.     #$%^!!!!!   No love, just error codes.    I checked the error codes but still had no luck.     After restarting the PC many times an Info Box popped up to say.............'You have successfully re-armed the Eval OS for a further 180 days.'    No idea how that kicked in, but atleast I now had 180 days to sort the Product Key.

 

I tried installing the Product Key a few more times and kept getting an error code.    Damn.   I fluffed around some more then gave up.    The PC needed some Windows updates, so I started on them.   @#$%!     3 times the updates got to 93% and stopped.    

 

I restarted the PC many more times to try and get the Updates to work or atleast to stop uploading.    Finally, I got them to stop.    I put in the Command Prompt to check that the PC did in fact have another 180 days of life.   

 

Guess what????.

 

The PC informed me the new Product Key had actually finally installed and the PC was fully Activated.    

 

That was about 5 hours from start of process to the End.    PC's can do your head in. 

 

For my future reference, can anyone offer any thoughts as to how things all came together finally?

With the Re-arm eventually activating and the new Product Key eventually activating. 

I know someone will ask about the Error codes.    I didn't write them down except one was telling me I hadn't logged on as Administrator, which was not true. 

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

 

[RickyV]

 

Is this a reasonable price for these “old” cpu‘s. I might order the SOTM motherboard soon.

[seeteeyou]

17 hours ago, MarcelNL said:

I recal Taiko tinkered with DIY design MB but left that track for the C621 sage platform for sound quality, I'd be highly surprised if they now made their own MB but we'll see.

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-88#post-613373

Quote

As for the stock server-grade ASUS motherboard used in the Extreme, I have often wondered why Emile didn't design his own motherboard like Antipodes and Innuos have and it turns out Emile has. As I have a background heavily entrenched in DIY, I have explored motherboard design myself and if one has the capital, any of these motherboard manufacturers will gladly build you one. What Emile found, however, was the motherboard he designed didn't sound better. In fact, he tested dozens of boards and I was able to witness for myself some of these boards that failed to make the cut including several that were in active prototype form.

 

---

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/introducing-olympus-olympus-i-o-a-new-perspective-on-modern-music-playback.37939/page-4#post-931333

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Out of curiousity, how many boards are custom in the Olympus?

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/introducing-olympus-olympus-i-o-a-new-perspective-on-modern-music-playback.37939/page-5#post-931392

Quote

14 if I'm counting correctly.

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/introducing-olympus-olympus-i-o-a-new-perspective-on-modern-music-playback.37939/page-5#post-931396

Quote

1. For the Olympus we'd be forced to move to Windows 11. The Extreme uses Windows 10. Due to the very unfortunate but unavoidable discontinue of the Extreme's CPUs we have to move to a new platform to guarantee future availability. 5 years is more or less the life cycle of server grade hardware. We are stocking up on Extreme motherboards and CPUs but at some point in time they will simply not be available anymore, which is a big shame as this is one, if not the best CPU we have come across for music server applications.

 

---

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/qsa-lanedri-series.36078/page-5#post-849857

Quote

It turns out that Iconoclast does and so their cables were an ideal platform for testing and indeed, we found that by applying treatment to their cables with lower purity 3N ETP copper, we could get better results than by treating the same cable that used the much more expensive ultrapure OCC copper.

 

https://www.americanelements.com/copper-metal-7440-50-8

Quote

(2N) 99% Copper Metal

 

 

 

In order to "break the ceiling" for DIY music servers, we could treat our own custom-designed motherboards with 2N copper.

 

Most likely we'll never find anything that's getting anywhere close to the performance of their XDMS NSM, though there's nothing wrong with Win11PE + foo_pggb_rt + foobar2000

 

http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/4410-windows-11-pe-audiophile-creation-guide/?p=61076

 

And then we've got other tweaks to push the envelope as well

 

http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/4410-windows-11-pe-audiophile-creation-guide/?p=67141

[MarcelNL]

I;d say let's wait and hear...

 

All this faff (my words) about QSA does nothing for me, the idea that wors copper sounds better after a magical treatment than copper with less impurities makes ME think it's at best a symptom treatment and not a cure. Statements like 'air insulators work best with the treatment are IMO unrelated to the treatment.

Moreover, a magical treatment of a conductor using a box can encompass what; heat? High Frequency, High Voltage, High current or a combination of any of the previous, I may miss a few here...but it really sounds like that magical plug you need to put in your car and save 30% fuel instantly.

 

Metal Active Treatment by Yan Tsick Man is not exactly well documented other than in some raves, what I found on YT does not instill a sense of 'want' in me as what I'm hearing is the sort of glorified HIFI you typically hear on audio shows demo-ing music that always sounds impressive but not informative (selecting stuff with huge contrast between various instruments and little emotion).

 

Not that I'm not interested in what the process does, heck we've been doing far more crazy stuff with cables...

 

For now I'm hapy to stick with the Sage and Xeon Silvers, they will last looooong even if they are not available new there are plenty around.

 

Tinkering with a Motherboard? Its multilayer and quite well sorted as it is. My experiments with X570 MB's showed me that more phases are better, yet once I turned on the Sage (without ANY OS tinkering or load balancing) that idea went largely down the drain and I currently think that carefully balancing concepts, ideas and improvements is what is needed, and that takes loads of time and lots of listening.

 

Nothing like XDMI NSM? I haven't heard it either. I did hear the the LMS based predecessor on an Extreme and that did not make me think it had the edge over Linux/Daphile (also LMS based) on my Ryzen 16 core build at that time (granted at a show sound rarely, well rather never, is at it's best).

 

 

 

[MarcelNL]

for reference, Taiko just released pricing of their new products, XDMI is as I understand it what used to be TACDA (the output card for the Extreme that might have been released for a.o. us DIY-ers.

What they did is interesting, they concluded that putting in out components on a separate (rechargable battery) power supply the results were better to a point where the PSU for the MB almost did not matter. So you end up with a server and a separate I/O module with the output of choice at two levels 

 

 

I think it's safe to say prices are in another league;

(Ex VAT/BTW/MwSt)

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/introducing-olympus-olympus-i-o-a-new-perspective-on-modern-music-playback.37939/page-13

Export pricing means exclusive sales taxes/shipping where applicable.

 

Olympus Export Pricing:

Olympus server USB: € 52.000

Olympus I/O USB: € 24.000

Olympus server + Olympus I/O USB : € 72.800

Olympus server XDMI: € 65.400 / introduction discount € 5.000 -> € 60.400

Olympus I/O XDMI: € 37.400 / introduction discount € 5.000 -> € 32.400

Olympus server + Olympus I/O XDMI : € 86.200 / introduction discount € 5.000 -> € 81.200

Olympus I/O to add to an Extreme server: € 20.800 (return your old USB and Network card)

Olympus I/O XDMI to add to an Extreme server: € 35.800 / introduction discount € 5.000 -> € 30.800 (return your old USB and Network card)

 

 

 

[RickyV]

Hi, I did some inquiry about the SOTM motherboard to a local dutch shop and this is the answer i got back.

 

 

Hi Rik

Thank you for your email and interest in SOtM motherboard.

SOtM makes fantastic products, but the motherboard has become a loss-making item for us.

Even though this is a standard motherboard, we have received the board back 4 times with a damaged CPU
 base. 

Pins were bent and of course it no longer worked. (See photo below of the last board we got back)

We have therefore become very hesitant to sell this board.

I looked it up, but this is not a special CPU foot, it is just standard material.

We have the network card and clock boards in stock.

Some customers modify their own motherboard. This also has the advantage that you can work with newer generations of motherboards/CPUs.

 

 

 

 

 

???? Does anybody recognize this problem?