Track preload affects sonics - HELP!!!

[Ralf11]

it's ok if you cannot name anyone - try to get out more tho

[Ishmael Slapowitz]

Real simple fix in the end. Dump the computer and get a purpose built network player/renderer. End of story.

[fas42]

2 hours ago, Paul R said:

In any case, from memory, I think that the effect is quite real and easily documented, but I think it has something to do with auditory memory not with playback performance.

 

The second time round, you already know what to expect and your attention is better focused, or something like that.  In any case, it would be interesting to see what real honest to John measurements say about it.

 

 

This may be relevant in some instances ... there are so many variables; one of the behaviours I've run into a far bit is that the sound will start off coming across well, and then steadily over some period, could be minutes, could be hours, will slowly degrade - one attempts to convince oneself that it's "all in the mind"; then you put on some album that screams at you, "this sounds awful!!".

 

What's happening is that various electrical factors are stabilising, or steadily shifting into a state where they cause the key circuitry to stop functioning as well as it should - it's not your imagination!! To solve the problem may require some detective work - but all these issues can be resolved .

[Paul R]

2 hours ago, Ishmael Slapowitz said:

Real simple fix in the end. Dump the computer and get a purpose built network player/renderer. End of story.

 

Ah- very psych!  Trade in a computer that is sold as a computer for a computer with a different label that makes you think it isn't a computer.

 

[Ralf11]

I am also with the computer has not been shown to infest the bits with nasties crowd...

 

 

[Paul R]

24 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

This may be relevant in some instances ... there are so many variables; one of the behaviours I've run into a far bit is that the sound will start off coming across well, and then steadily over some period, could be minutes, could be hours, will slowly degrade - one attempts to convince oneself that it's "all in the mind"; then you put on some album that screams at you, "this sounds awful!!".

 

What's happening is that various electrical factors are stabilising, or steadily shifting into a state where they cause the key circuitry to stop functioning as well as it should - it's not your imagination!! To solve the problem may require some detective work - but all these issues can be resolved .

 

I hate to say it Fas old man, but a cause for that which is much easer to understand is that every system has auditory flaws that cause listening fatigue - sooner or later. In general, the better the system, the longer one can listen without [damn typo! -> without <- ]  the onset of fatigue.  

 

It could be that sound is not really changing. Only hard and fast measurements will tell us which answer is the real reason. (Or point to another reason entirely.) 

 

Have you measured the output of a device and actually seen it change?  That would be very compelling evidence for what you believe.

 

-Paul 

 

[fas42]

4 hours ago, Paul R said:

 

I hate to say it Fas old man, but a cause for that which is much easer to understand is that every system has auditory flaws that cause listening fatigue - sooner or later. In general, the better the system, the longer one can listen without [damn typo! -> without <- ]  the onset of fatigue.  

 

Yes, that would be so in many cases. However, getting a rig up to the levels I'm interested in means the onset of fatigue never happens; we've had previous setups running from early in the morning until we go to bed, with the sound going throughout the house - not a problem.

 

4 hours ago, Paul R said:

 

It could be that sound is not really changing. Only hard and fast measurements will tell us which answer is the real reason. (Or point to another reason entirely.) 

 

Have you measured the output of a device and actually seen it change?  That would be very compelling evidence for what you believe.

 

-Paul 

 

 

I would have been tempted to investigate here, but for the fact that others who believe in the subjective approach, who also have access to plenty of precision measuring gear, have always stated that they are unable to find clear numbers that link to what they hear. Why should I think I can do better?

 

It's been trivial to always hear what's going on, for me. If sound seems wrong, then it is wrong - this attitude has worked for 3 decades; the goal has always been invisibility of the playback mechanism, ability to go to any sane volume with zero audible issues, zero disturbing anomalies in what one hears - I tend not to come across many systems with this attributes; so, not motivated in finding numbers for this at the moment ...

[Paul R]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

Yes, that would be so in many cases. However, getting a rig up to the levels I'm interested in means the onset of fatigue never happens; we've had previous setups running from early in the morning until we go to bed, with the sound going throughout the house - not a problem.

 

I am not sure, but I think auditory fatigue always sets in, with any system. I could be wrong there, as that is not something I have ever really looked up any studies about.  At least, I have never heard of a system that can play without people getting tired of it. 

 

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

I would have been tempted to investigate here, but for the fact that others who believe in the subjective approach, who also have access to plenty of precision measuring gear, have always stated that they are unable to find clear numbers that link to what they hear. Why should I think I can do better?

 

It's been trivial to always hear what's going on, for me. If sound seems wrong, then it is wrong - this attitude has worked for 3 decades; the goal has always been invisibility of the playback mechanism, ability to go to any sane volume with zero audible issues, zero disturbing anomalies in what one hears - I tend not to come across many systems with this attributes; so, not motivated in finding numbers for this at the moment ...

 

Well, subjectivist, objectivist, or just an independent cuss,  measurements are a tool that helps us understand what we hear, see, feel,  and believe. I certainly do not believe measurements are the beginning and end of the story, especially about audio.  I can't think of a good way of testing to validate this other than measurements though. 

[Jim Smith]

16 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

You realize this is the guy with the 10 pages of commonly known stuff inflated into an entire book, right?

 

It's like arguing with a used car salesman about camshaft lift and combustion flame spread velocity.

My question was an honest request for possible help in an area which is not in my skill-set (computers).  I can make it work, but not at its best without restarting the tracks when they are from different CDs.  It is not all that subtle - I have demo'd it to various listeners and all could hear it easily.

 

Not sure why you cannot offer a helpful suggestion rather than an uninformed diatribe.

 

However, having just seen your system set-up in your profile, I think I may know why after all.   🤔

 

You can have the last word...

 

 

 

[Superdad]

18 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

You realize this is the guy with the 10 pages of commonly known stuff inflated into an entire book, right?

 

It's like arguing with a used car salesman about camshaft lift and combustion flame spread velocity.

 

I think that your comments are incredibly disrespectful Ralf. 

Jim Smith has been setting up audio systems and helping people get great sound in their rooms for decades.  Not only is he widely respected in the industry and beloved by his clients, he is the consummate gentleman, one of the nicest, most honest people I have met in my 30+ years in the business.  Right up there will the likes of Paul McGowan and Nelson Pass (though Jim is not an engineer).

And I'd put Jim's ears up against yours any day of the week.  He is a VERY perceptive listener.

[Ishmael Slapowitz]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

My question was an honest request for possible help in an area which is not in my skill-set (computers).  I can make it work, but not at its best without restarting the tracks when they are from different CDs.  It is not all that subtle - I have demo'd it to various listeners and all could hear it easily.

 

Not sure why you cannot offer a helpful suggestion rather than an uninformed diatribe.

 

However, having just seen your system set-up in your profile, I think I may know why after all.   🤔

 

You can have the last word...

 

 

 

Honestly, judging someone by what you think their system sounds like is the ultimate audiophile blowhard move.😅

 

You don't list your system here.  I could also speculate that someone who uses Audirvana and a computer for playback has no idea what state of the art digital playback is.🤠

[Ralf11]

his comment was pitiful but not unexpected

 

Sdad - I went thru his book; I stand by my comments

 

But YOUR comments are not only uncalled for but completely ridiculous besides being " incredibly disrespectful" - you have never met me and know nothing at all about my hearing ability yet launch a personal attack on it.

 

That calls into question you, and your products.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Nobody wants to read you guys bitch at each other. Get over it and move on.

[Ishmael Slapowitz]

3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Nobody wants to read you guys bitch at each other. Get over it and move on.

Just a little edgy kibitzing.....🤐

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, Ishmael Slapowitz said:

You don't list your system here. 

 

Actually he does.  It is right in his signature at the bottom of every post.  And on his profile page Jim lists his history in the industry over the past 47 years.

[Ishmael Slapowitz]

23 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Actually he does.  It is right in his signature at the bottom of every post.  And on his profile page Jim lists his history in the industry over the past 47 years.

For the record, on both an iPhone and iPad his signature did not appear..on my PC it does. I see it now, thanks.

[Samuel T Cogley]

And also for the record, the Audio System section of Jim's profile does indeed contain his resume, not his audio system information.

[fas42]

11 hours ago, Paul R said:

 

Well, subjectivist, objectivist, or just an independent cuss,  measurements are a tool that helps us understand what we hear, see, feel,  and believe. I certainly do not believe measurements are the beginning and end of the story, especially about audio.  I can't think of a good way of testing to validate this other than measurements though. 

 

Dennis, esldude, has provided us with some good data to play with, in the 8th copy threads. The final copy is obviously distorted, because one can hear the difference. So, work out how to measure what has happened to the degraded sample, in the areas where one can clearly hear the variation - if one can correlate a measurable difference to the audible symptoms, then a good start to having a better tool has been made.

[Paul R]

27 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Dennis, esldude, has provided us with some good data to play with, in the 8th copy threads. The final copy is obviously distorted, because one can hear the difference. So, work out how to measure what has happened to the degraded sample, in the areas where one can clearly hear the variation - if one can correlate a measurable difference to the audible symptoms, then a good start to having a better tool has been made.

 

He did - thought he posted it? It was kinda embarrassing because while I could pick out the copies, I also rather preferred them. Over the originals.

 

But in this case, why would a file sound different the second time it is played?  It is not like it is being copied or something. Even if it was, it is a digital file and will simply not experience degradation, no matter how many generations of copies.  So something is happening for sure. If it is listener familiarity, then waiting 90-180 seconds before playing it the second time should “eliminate the differences” - or perhaps as many as 300 seconds will need to elapse. If there is a real physical change in the equipment, then the equipment should be left playing during the wait period, perhaps with the volume muted. 

 

 

[fas42]

1 hour ago, Paul R said:

But in this case, why would a file sound different the second time it is played?  It is not like it is being copied or something. Even if it was, it is a digital file and will simply not experience degradation, no matter how many generations of copies.  So something is happening for sure. If it is listener familiarity, then waiting 90-180 seconds before playing it the second time should “eliminate the differences” - or perhaps as many as 300 seconds will need to elapse. If there is a real physical change in the equipment, then the equipment should be left playing during the wait period, perhaps with the volume muted. 

 

 

 

Because everything matters, . The waveforms in all the electronics are constantly changing, even in the supposed DC levels, because of what happened just prior, and then in the current moment - at a physics level it can't be any other way, because that's the nature of things ... .

 

Now, the theory is that "this sort of stuff doesn't matter!" - but everything I've looked at over the years says otherwise; our ears are too sensitive to tiny anomalies - and the gear is just not engineered well enough, many times, to reject these variations, that we can detect with our hearing. It shouldn't be audible, but it damn well is ... .

 

I was quite happy with the CD player, my first, until one day, just like Jim, I noticed something - Hey! I just restarted that track after playing a few seconds, and it sounds different! What's going on!! That was a start of a major exercise, exploring every variation of kicking off the playing of a new disk - I spent many days exploring this - and finally settled on a ritual that seemed the best method. An annoying thing to do at first - but it became habitual; just part of a pattern.

 

Later machines I used seemed not to have this; the current, quite old NAD CDP gets enough right, so far, for me not to worry about more subtle issues - though I will note one habit I have; I shut the drawer with the CD in, then re-open, and lastly press play, to shut again and start the music. Why? Because at one point I found it made a difference - is it still necessary, now?  I don't know - at some point when the SQ is at a really worthwhile level I'll do some more experimenting ...

 

 

[Ralf11]

I think he meant in this universe, Frank.

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

Audio quality will never be measurable in the sense that individuals would be able to compare numbers and correlate results with any degree of accuracy.  The telecom industry has struggled with how to measure voice quality accurately for decades, and the best they can come up with is MOS.  You would run tests in a lab using expensive measurement equipment and simulators, then get out in the field and the lab numbers meant nothing because real calls in real life sound like crap every time it rained.  I hated that job.

 

I'd put money on things being physiological/psychological more than a physically measurable phenomenon.  Superstition comes to mind, easy to convince yourself something brings good luck.  Or in this case, better sound.    There could be engineering reasoning behind it although much less likely IMO.  It would be a huge amount of effort to find the root cause either way and would the end result be worth all that effort?  Diminishing returns. 

 

If it sounds good, do it I say.

[Allan F]

6 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

You can have the last word...

 

Please reconsider the above, Jim. Have some consideration for the rest of us.

[sandyk]

10 minutes ago, BrokeLinuxPhile said:

  You would run tests in a lab using expensive measurement equipment and simulators, then get out in the field and the lab numbers meant nothing because real calls in real life sound like crap every time it rained.  I hated that job.

 

For real life calls to sound like crap every time it rained, it should have only been possible due to partial short circuits or insulation losses to earth in either the customer's riser or main pair cables, or the cables from the premises to the external pit.

(Unless of course, it was in a rural area with aerial cables)

 Unfortunately, this is more of a problem these days, especially with ADSL,FTN ( Fibre to the Node) etc.  with aging local copper infrastructure and lack of proper maintenance.

 

Regards

Alex

(Retired Principal Telecommunications Technical Officer-Telstra Australia )

[Ishmael Slapowitz]

22 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

Please reconsider the above, Jim. Have some consideration for the rest of us.

Oy Vey.🤗