Fas42’s Stereo ‘Magic’

[gmgraves]

9 hours ago, sandyk said:

IIRC, devices such as the LM394 are fabricated using parallel transistors, and I have a couple somewhere with an HFE of around 1,500.

Some of today’s opamps are simply amazing; a far cry from the 709/741’s that started it all. The best, from the Burr-Brown and National Semiconductor divisions of Texas Instruments, have high slew rates, super low noise and wide gain bandwidth and they really sound good! 

[fas42]

Quote

 

By @Blackmorec:

 

Posted October 12, 2018

 

 

After literally hundreds of posts about his DIY improvements and the sonic benefits they achieve,  there’s a degree of boredom and indeed animosity developing towards Frank. But are we throwing the baby out with the bath water?  Is Frank genuinely onto something or is he just a misguided nuisance consuming forum bandwidth?  Frankly (s’cuse the pun), I believe its the former, but his position needs far more explanation, so this is an attempt to put Frank’s observations into some kind of hi-if system related context. 

 

In human evolution, our hearing has served 2 purposes; the ability to locate and hunt our prey and the ability to detect and avoid hunters that would prey on us. Our hearing is a key component for our survival which together with intelligence and other senses has helped us achieve our dominant position in the food chain. 

 

In nature sound ALWAYS emanates from a single source. No matter what the sound, it always originates from ONE point. You may have multiple sounds and therefore multiple origins but each discreet sound only has a single origin. Sound waves emanating from that source reach a  human head and are detected by our two ears, on either side of our head. Based on the phase, amplitude and differential amplitude between our 2 ears our brain is able to locate the source of the sound. Based on the frequency spectrum it is also able to match that spectrum to stored patterns in order to identify what made the sound....a dog barking, lion roaring, horse neighing, the snap of a twig etc.  To further identify the source, the brain balances the sound in both ears by rotating the head, thereby aligning the eyes with the sound’s source and allowing a visual detection and identification. 

Stereo is different. In stereo,  each sound has 2 sources, the left and right speaker.   In essence we artificially manipulate the amplitude and phase of the sound reaching each ear . The brain still works in the same way and uses the relative phase and amplitude differential between our 2 ears to assign the exact point from which the sound originates. If the phase, amplitude and frequency are accurate enough, the brain will build a sonic picture of those sounds’ origins.  With insufficient or inaccurate information, the brain is unable to build that picture and you’ll hear all sounds emanating from the 2 speakers, but if sufficient accurate detail is provided to the brain, it will use that information to construct a detailed soundscape, with each instrument having its own unique origin.  Allowing your brain to properly ‘interpret’ the sound and build that sonic 3D picture is what Frank is on about. 

Frank talks about his DIY appoach to making this happen, so what’s he doing? Essentially the cheaper the components, the less well made its building blocks. Cheap nickel plated connectors with poor contacts, relays in the signal path, rubber feet that do little to amelearate vibration,  cheap pressed steel cases that vibrate with the music, power supplies that add lots of HF noise  and a myriad of other issues that impact the signal and result in music from the speakers that the brain is unable to make real sense of given that the relative amplitudes, phase and frequencies reaching each ear are not accurately portrayed and have lost their critical relationship to one another. What you are left with is the sound coming from 2 loud speakers with perhaps a little L&R information but nothing like the sonic soundscape that the brain is truly cable of building when provided accurate, ‘related’ information.

So, can one of Frank’s fettled systems really make bad recordings sound good? In a word no. BUT, BUT...an unfettled system can sure as hell make reasonable recordings sound bad and that’s Frank’s point. Many recording that sound bad are made to sound that way by the system and even quite poor recording can sound quite reasonable when replayed on a system that results in the creation of a proper sonic soundscape.  Why is that?  Very simple....when all sound seems to originate from the 2 loudspeakers, instruments all sound like they’re coming from the same place and sonically interfere with and get in the way of one another. Once the brain is able to assign an individual source to each instrument that interference disappears and the music sounds a lot more pleasant. Despite what you may think, there are very few really poor and unlistenable recordings out there and for the most part, when replayed properly, the enjoyment of the music will tend or overcome the limitations of most recordings to make for an overwhelmingly pleasant listening experience. 

So does using expensive equipment guarantee a good result? Unfortunately no.  It probably does mean that you can forego a lot of Frank’s DIY efforts because the building blocks are of better quality, but if its not optimally matched and set up, even the best equipment can still fail to build that big 3 dimensional soundstage. 

 

So when you reach Frank’s sonic Nirvana, is that the end of the journey...job done?   No, but it is a major milestone. He has one thing absolutely right. If you’re not there, you are missing out on most of what recorded music can deliver and the chances are high that many recordings are going to sound poor to bloody awefull. 

 

So, once you’re there, is the brain able to ignore any faults and compensate for a poor room? Again the answer is no. There’s no doubt that its a big leap in sound quality when your system/brain provides that large, deep 3 dimensional soundstage. You’ll wonder that 2 loudspeakers can actually perform this trick (remember its your brain and not the loudspeakers) and like Frank, you’ll feel that a lot of faults and limitations have disappeared, taken care of when the brain converts your listening room into the recording venue populated by musicians. But....

 

The room still has an impact on the sound in that everything within that 3D soundstage takes on the room’s sonic character, For example if the room has a large bass node, you’ll still hear that, every time the room’s resonance frequency is activated.  And there are still a large number of parameters that can be improved. All you’ve optimised to get a 3D soundstage are certain parameters like phase accuracy, frequency accuracy,  cross talk between channels,  a degree of RFI suppression, reflection control,  some vibration control etc.  There is a long list of sonic attributes that can still be improved to make the sound even more enjoyable. The list includes:

Rhythm and timing

Speed, impetus, drive, propulsion, fluency

Dynamics and micro-dynamics

Tonal colours and sonic textural richness

Atmosphere and air

Frequency extension....deep intense richly timbral bass, sparkling, shimmering energetic treble

Natural sweetness

Natural  brightness

Focus within the soundstage

Layering, depth and height information

Continuity of the soundstage

Degree of listener involvement, engagement 

Ability to invite in the listener and keep him/her deeply engaged and enthralled 

 

Frank’s point is important but its not the be all and end all. Its a major milestone. 

 

Finally. I believe a fairly large number of audiophiles have already reached and gone beyond this milestone and are now working on the many improvements listed above. Frank creates the impression that once you’ve reach ‘sonic nirvana’ you brain does the rest and there’s nothing more to do.  I would put it a little differently. Once your system is good enough to allow your brain to perform its magic and create that 3D soundstage you can move on to address other performance issues that still limit your system’s performance....issues that you’ll clearly hear once addressed.

[christopher3393]

Frank, at this particular moment in time. when doubts about science are costing lives, maybe you could back off rather than accelerate. Just in the name of human decency.

 

Your cumulative posts present a cult unto itself and this is absolutely the wrong time for it.

[fas42]

So, you perceive that "I'm against science"?

[kumakuma]

What is the purpose of this thread?

 

You seem to have just cloned an existing thread.

[fas42]

The other is contaminated with OT posts - this is to restore appropriate control over what is allowed to be left sitting, as regards the topic.

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

The other is contaminated with OT posts - this is to restore appropriate control over what is allowed to be left sitting, as regards the topic.

So basically, instead of moving on, and in spite of the fact that you have zero credibility here, you are continuing to try to sell your impossible bullpuckey. Frank, nobody cares about your “method”. Do you have to be literally hit over the head with a 500 watt power amp to get that through your thick skull?

[Racerxnet]

A waste of a good amplifier. 

[4est]

The fact that you are speaking of yourself in the third person speaks volumes to me.

[fas42]

1 minute ago, 4est said:

The fact that you are speaking of yourself in the third person speaks volumes to me.

 

And the fact that you completely missed that I quoted the OP of Part 1, by Blackmorec, to set the stage of this thread - taken out of quotes so that the display of the text doesn't roll up ... also speaks volumes ...

[fas42]

Always pleased to find a group in the audio world who understands what matters, and not only delivers products that cut the mustard, https://www.temporalcoherence.nl/cms/images/docs/ImpressionOfListeningDiamant.pdf, but also details their understanding of what is often ignored, or poorly understood, https://www.temporalcoherence.nl/cms/en/pyra.

[kumakuma]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

And the fact that you completely missed that I quoted the OP of Part 1, by Blackmorec, to set the stage of this thread - taken out of quotes so that the display of the text doesn't roll up ... also speaks volumes ...

 

It isn't @4est's fault that you quoted @Blackmorec in a weird-ass way that is both hard to understand and screws up the search functionality of the site.

 

 

[Allan F]

3 hours ago, gmgraves said:

So basically, instead of moving on, and in spite of the fact that you have zero credibility here, you are continuing to try to sell your impossible bullpuckey. Frank, nobody cares about your “method”. Do you have to be literally hit over the head with a 500 watt power amp to get that through your thick skull?

 

Nice try, George, but I would wager that at least a kilowatt amp would be required and I'm not so sure that would do the trick.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 hour ago, Allan F said:

4 hours ago, gmgraves said:

So basically, instead of moving on, and in spite of the fact that you have zero credibility here, you are continuing to try to sell your impossible bullpuckey. Frank, nobody cares about your “method”. Do you have to be literally hit over the head with a 500 watt power amp to get that through your thick skull?

 

Nice try, George, but I would wager that at least a kilowatt amp would be required and I'm not so sure that would do the trick.

 

I'll gladly loan my amp for this worthy cause. It's 108kg 😲

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

7 hours ago, fas42 said:

 "I'm against science"?

That or vice versa 😁

[Summit]

Let me be frank . The question asked 18 month ago was:

 

Is Frank genuinely onto something or is he just a misguided nuisance consuming forum bandwidth?  Frankly (s’cuse the pun), I believe its the former, but his position needs far more explanation, so this is an attempt to put Frank’s observations into some kind of hi-if system related context. 

 

My conclusion after 18 month and many thousands of posts from Frank is the second and that his position on this “magical” way of improving sound needs NO more clarification. I’m still enjoying then Frank discuses other topics and are not proposing that he should stop telling things as he see/hear them.   

[4est]

8 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

And the fact that you completely missed that I quoted the OP of Part 1, by Blackmorec, to set the stage of this thread - taken out of quotes so that the display of the text doesn't roll up ... also speaks volumes ...

Typically when I have encountered someone who referred to themselves in the third person, they were stoned, crazy or full of themselves. There are no quotes because I did not quote you, I merely commented.

[gmgraves]

15 hours ago, Allan F said:

 

Nice try, George, but I would wager that at least a kilowatt amp would be required and I'm not so sure that would do the trick.

How about hitting him over the head with an Ampex 300-3 complete with record/play amplifiers? Think that would do it?

 

[gmgraves]

18 hours ago, 4est said:

The fact that you are speaking of yourself in the third person speaks volumes to me.

Is Blackmorec REALLY Frank's alterego, and other nom de plume?

[gmgraves]

14 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

I'll gladly loan my amp for this worthy cause. It's 108kg 😲

Thanks, but I think the Ampex 300-3 tape recorder I pictured, above, would do a better job. It probably weighs 300kg at least!

[gmgraves]

10 hours ago, 4est said:

Typically when I have encountered someone who referred to themselves in the third person, they were stoned, crazy or full of themselves. There are no quotes because I did not quote you, I merely commented.

I can think of something more scatological that Frank is full of! Perhaps the best way to keep Frank off the topic of his ridiculous "method" is for everyone to stop responding to him whenever he brings up this topic. The problem is it's difficult not to pick such low hanging fruit. Frank and his "method" are so easy to make fun of, because his entire construct is so ridiculous: High-end sound out of an old gutted ghetto blaster using only the speakers. Speakers STILL MOUNTED in the ghetto blaster's plastic cabinet! "Whatta Maroon!" (as Bugs Bunny used to say). 😂 

[wdw]

17 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Is Blackmorec REALLY Frank's alterego, and other nom de plume?

blackmorec is the fas42 whisperer .... suspect they are one and the same but would wager that, if not so, neither Is willing to speak when the other is taking a drink. 

[gmgraves]

Just now, wdw said:

blackmorec is the fas whisperer .... suspect they are one and the same but would wager that, if not so, neither Is willing to speak when the other is taking a drink. 

😉Gotcha!

[fas42]

11 hours ago, Summit said:

My conclusion after 18 month and many thousands of posts from Frank is the second and that his position on this “magical” way of improving sound needs NO more clarification. I’m still enjoying then Frank discuses other topics and are not proposing that he should stop telling things as he see/hear them.   

 

I'm still waiting for Chris to give me control over this thread, and until that happens there is no point in putting up more material, or responding to intelligent posts - the childishness displayed so far needs to be binned, so no more until that occurs.

 

Yes, it should be obvious that I very much have my own way of determining the facts - I have zero interest in following the pattern set by others, and take no notice of what "authoritative figures" say - if what they claim doesn't add up, IME.

 

Most reacting here could get a life, and cease reading if they don't like my POV ... one way or the other, I'll keep contributing until I can safely go somewhere and not be assaulted by supposedly high quality rigs delivering SQ which is really quite awful.

[Racerxnet]

Franks Magic CLOWN Show; Part 2....